Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

John Fedup said:

WTF did I say America would unravel in one year? In less than 30 years China has gone from barely above third world status to the second largest economy. The US is 18 billion in debt and continues to run big deficits. What do you think the positions of the two countries will be in 20 years?

Currently the F-35 stands a good chance of being Canada's next fighter, assuming people like you minimize your BS so why don't you just go away.

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I think the US deficit figure in your post of 18 billion is considerably short of the mark. According to the Congressional Budget Office (sorry not yet able to post links) the budget projection for 2017 is comprised of Outlays of $4.0 trillion and Revenues of $3.3 trillion leaving an annual deficit of $693 billion.

The total debt held by the public (i.e. the cumulative deficit) is an eye-watering $14.7 trillion.

pgclift said:

I think the US deficit figure in your post of 18 billion is considerably short of the mark. According to the Congressional Budget Office (sorry not yet able to post links) the budget projection for 2017 is comprised of Outlays of $4.0 trillion and Revenues of $3.3 trillion leaving an annual deficit of $693 billion.

The total debt held by the public (i.e. the cumulative deficit) is an eye-watering $14.7 trillion.

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You are correct, I am out by a factor of 1000. The number is indeed trillion not billion. I thought the 18 was correct but even 14.7 is scary.

pkcasimir said:

The Indians were desperate for the Rafale. The order was significantly reduced because of cost, not technology sharing. The Indians got what they could get in technology transfer then realized that they just could not afford the price of the Rafale. There are a number of reasons why the French can't sell the Rafale, the number one is price. You are just making stuff up. Do some research, which you apparently never do. Your personal opinions are not research.

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Part of the reason for the collapse of the original 128 aircraft Rafale order was the Indians insisting Dassault guarantee the work carried out by the Indian assembly plant.

Another order for 36 more aircraft was discussed in August; I think its inevitable the Indian Govt will buy far more then the initial order of 36 aircraft.

As for the US economy, they'll just print more money and raise the debt ceiling, but I'm confident that one day the US economy will collapse, the mounting debt can't be deferred forever.

KiwiRob said:

Part of the reason for the collapse of the original 128 aircraft Rafale order was the Indians insisting Dassault guarantee the work carried out by the Indian assembly plant.

Another order for 36 more aircraft was discussed in August; I think its inevitable the Indian Govt will buy far more then the initial order of 36 aircraft.

As for the US economy, they'll just print more money and raise the debt ceiling, but I'm confident that one day the US economy will collapse, the mounting debt can't be deferred forever.

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Debt ceiling and quantative easing are relative to perceived inflation. If China and Russia ( and the new power block emerging around them) try to wrestle petrol currency status off the US then everything slides into the unknown and would amount to an attack on the US's greatest strength and biggest weakness. That I believe will push a collapse. My 2 cents on that one.

KiwiRob said:

Part of the reason for the collapse of the original 128 aircraft Rafale order was the Indians insisting Dassault guarantee the work carried out by the Indian assembly plant.

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And they didn't want any Dassault management or QA people at the plant either. So they wanted Dassault to accept responsibility for Hindustan with no oversight or ability punish them.

A few years back they wanted 13 or so 127mm naval guns of the two manufacturers BAE didn't even bother bidding because the requirements were so silly. Full tech transfer and build 11 of the 13 guns in country and similar guarantees over the sub assigned to them.

Responsibility with no oversight or control, after HAL had already refused entry to its factories to supposed partners (not Dassault, in this case), & had done things such as taking parts from kits for new aircraft to repair old ones, without accounting for them.

It also accused the supplier of failing to deliver parts, & delivering old & corroded parts. It was assumed, but impossible to prove without full access, that they'd put old parts removed from operational aircraft into the kits to replace the new ones supplied.

Oh, & why were they breaking into the kits for spares? Because the Indian MoD had failed to complete & send off the paperwork to approve payment for delivered spares & request the next batch.

Who'd accept that liability without any oversight?

Given Dassault's experience with HAL I guess Bombardier seems a very attractive company to partner with in comparison. I still think junior will face a lot of pressure from Canadian aerospace and the RCAF to go with the F-35. His feud with Boeing can be used to explain away his reversal on this jet. The opposition Conversatives couldn't object to this without looking like hypocritical morons. The Boeing situation and the possibility of NAFTA talks going sideways could sway public opinion against any US jet leaving the Rafale as the remaining choice.

John Fedup said:

Given Dassault's experience with HAL I guess Bombardier seems a very attractive company to partner with in comparison. I still think junior will face a lot of pressure from Canadian aerospace and the RCAF to go with the F-35. His feud with Boeing can be used to explain away his reversal on this jet. The opposition Conversatives couldn't object to this without looking like hypocritical morons. The Boeing situation and the possibility of NAFTA talks going sideways could sway public opinion against any US jet leaving the Rafale as the remaining choice.

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This is funny stuff. No F35 because it doesn't work? No super Hornets because Boeing is stiffing a local? You still have a "capability gap" , so you want to buy second hand Australian F18's? Canada is located next door to the world's biggest industrial military complex and it may have to go to Europe for a fighter? I say there's a credibility gap.

The best weapon potential enemies of Canada have are Canadian politicians. There isn't anything they can't stuff up!

BigM60 said:

This is funny stuff. No F35 because it doesn't work? No super Hornets because Boeing is stiffing a local? You still have a "capability gap" , so you want to buy second hand Australian F18's? Canada is located next door to the world's biggest industrial military complex and it may have to go to Europe for a fighter? I say there's a credibility gap.

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Super Hornets according to this possibly

Government of Canada – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft with Support | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

The approval came on Sep 12 when things were already heading south for Boeing. The trade commission ruling last week against Bombardier didn't exactly enhance their chances for a SH deal.:rolling

Well least you have an indication of budget now,

The estimated total case value is $5.23 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on September 11, 2017.

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'CEMENT' is probably a good word choice for the boots on clapped out RAAF Hornets.

Canada cements interest in Australian Hornets 09 Oct 2017

"Canada has formally expressed interest in Australia’s used Boeing F/A-18A/B Hornets...

...Last month, Canadian defence minister Harjit Sajjan expressed interest in Australia’s Hornet fleet. On 29 September, Canada submitted a formal declaration known as an expression of interest to Australia. Canada expects a response by the end of 2017 with details on the aircraft’s cost and availability, according to a 9 October release from the Canadian government.... https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/canada-cements-interest-in-australian-hornets-441980/

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t68 said:

Well least you have an indication of budget now,

The estimated total case value is $5.23 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on September 11, 2017.

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That the cost was announced in the US Congress must be of some embarrassment to Trudeau. Up until then Canada refused to reveal how much it was going to pay for these aircraft.

I can understand why this would be embarrassing for him. This is a huge amount of money to just piss up against a wall for an interim replacement.

The same amount of money might get you a squadron of F-35s and would be the first step in a proper long term solution

aussienscale said:

Super Hornets according to this possibly

Government of Canada – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft with Support | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

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Not from Australia though. Our 72 F-35 are slated to replace the classics. The F will be the last to go and I'd bet that half of them will stay even longer to back up the G models

oldsig

oldsig127 said:

Not from Australia though. Our 72 F-35 are slated to replace the classics. The F will be the last to go and I'd bet that half of them will stay even longer to back up the G models

oldsig

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You would think they are referring to Supers but sadly for Canada that headline SpazSinbad posted indicates they are in fact looking to buy our shagged out A/B models.

King Wally said:

You would think they are referring to Supers but sadly for Canada that headline SpazSinbad posted indicates they are in fact looking to buy our shagged out A/B models.

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Indeed.. I'm thinking about selling my Commodore 64 to the CDF. Similar vintage as our original F-18's.

The good news our F-18's can shoot down F-16's, so if they ever have a war with a major F-16 operator, they will be all set.

Politically Canada is in a bit of pickle. The price could be quite high. Ideally Australia would prefer these planes to go to a country that might use them..

The interim purchase (stop-gap or whatever BS excuse of the day junior is using) WAS to have been Superhornets. That option is off the table now because of the Boeing-Bombardier dispute along with the mounting criticism of the actual need to do this instead of just proceeding to a complete replacement purchase. The cost of 18 SHs is beyond stupid as well. Because junior has mismanaged the country's finances so badly, he doesn't want to fund DND properly any time soon so buying used classic Hornets allows him to put off recapitalization of the RCAF until the end of his second mandate, a mandate the brain-dead electorate here will give him.:mad

StingrayOZ said:

Indeed.. I'm thinking about selling my Commodore 64 to the CDF. Similar vintage as our original F-18's.

The good news our F-18's can shoot down F-16's, so if they ever have a war with a major F-16 operator, they will be all set.

Politically Canada is in a bit of pickle. The price could be quite high. Ideally Australia would prefer these planes to go to a country that might use them..

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I imagine that they might not get their hands on the EX RAAF birds untill 2020 if they are lucky, would it not be easier to go to the boneyard and pickup some of our yankee mates, after all the USMC is picking the bones out of them at the moment for roughly 30 aircraft upgraded them to C++

https://news.usni.org/2016/06/23/marines-hornets-from-boneyard


Edit

Just notice that they are getting Boeing to do the upgrades to the deactivated fleet, so that would put the kibosh on things.