Australian Army Discussions and Updates

MARKMILES77

Active Member
1.Does the fact that the reserve 8 Brigade has become purely a training unit and lost it's Infantry Battalions and Cavalry Regiment, impact on Plan Beersheba ?

2.I note in recent photos a Hawkei equipped with Javelin ATGM on a RWS.
Is this a planned addition to Army our merely a demonstration of options?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
1.Does the fact that the reserve 8 Brigade has become purely a training unit and lost it's Infantry Battalions and Cavalry Regiment, impact on Plan Beersheba ?

2.I note in recent photos a Hawkei equipped with Javelin ATGM on a RWS.
Is this a planned addition to Army our merely a demonstration of options?
1. Not really. The units of 8 Bde will simply transfer to 5 Bde, with 5 Bde being the sole brigade supporting 7 Bde. I think a few of the units of 8 Bde will eventually end up part of 11 Bde as well. 12/16 HRL have recently raised a squadron in Brisbane, and I think the intent is for the whole regiment to move to QLD eventually (noting 11 Bde - based in QLD - is the only brigade without a reserve armoured unit, and yet two of the three ACRs, and huge numbers of ex-ARA troopers, are based in QLD).

2. Were they ADF photos or marketing photos from Thales? While you can mount Javelin on pretty much any RWS, there's currently no intent to do so in the ADF. That might change though.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
2. Were they ADF photos or marketing photos from Thales? While you can mount Javelin on pretty much any RWS, there's currently no intent to do so in the ADF. That might change though.
Looks like some sort of official display.
7 Hawkeis. Both single and dual cabs can be seen.
All with weapons mounted.
Protector RWS with 50 cal
Protector RWS with 7.62(?) and Javelin Launcher.
Platt ring mount unprotected with Grenade Launcher.
Platt ring mount unprotected with 50 cal.
Platt ring mount with gun shield.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Found the source of the photos.
They are from Defence Technology Review Sept 2017.
Seems it was an official ADF/Government display.
 

toryu

Member
Found the source of the photos.
They are from Defence Technology Review Sept 2017.
Seems it was an official ADF/Government display.
Yes but they were defence photos and were up on the defence imagery page a while back but seem to have been taken down as I have searched the original file names. I saved all of the original photos and the relevant blurb for a thing I'm doing. I can put them up somewhere if that's useful to you. Couple of the photos show the interior of the C4I version.

The two sand coloured variants, one of which has the Javelin, I think may have something to do with the SOF variant they are proposing. It's meant to have a cage rear, with rear facing seat and ring mount but none of the photos provide absolute clarity. You can just see the cage frame in some.

Blurb said:
On Monday 31 July 2017 Defence's Project LAND 121 Phase 4 hosted a demonstration of the Hawkei Protected Mobility Vehicle - Light's (PMV-L) new integrated command, control, communications, computers and intelligence (C4I) system, at Monegeetta Proving Ground, Victoria.

This activity is part of the Land 121 Ph 4 contract requirements. The new C4I capability, termed the C4I integral computing system (ICS), is scheduled to commence introduction into service in 2018. It represents the first use of a Generic Vehicle Architecture compliant C4I solution on a land platform by the ADF, and supports Army’s Common Platform Architecture body of work, which is led by the Land Network Integration Centre, Army Headquarters.

The PMV-L's new C4I ICS will integrate the following systems:

• Completed Tranche 1 radio suite
• Complete C4I ICS system hardware
• Functional Intercom
• Live navigation data from the Defense Advanced Global Positioning System Receiver
• Demonstration of alerts and alarms
• Over the air transmission of Battle Management System and radios on the move
• Integrated remote weapon station

“LAND 121 Phase 4 is developing the next-generation Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence (C4I) system for employment on the Hawkei protected vehicle. The C4I Integral Computing System (ICS) has been developed based on an Army requirement for a more integrated approach to C4I on vehicles that realises benefits in the areas of useability, space, weight and power. The C4I ICS uses a central computing concept to host various C4I systems and communications. The capability demonstration at Monegeetta Proving Ground, VIC, on 31 Jul 2017 demonstrated the initial C4I ICS capability fully operating on the Hawkei. The initial baseline of the C4I ICS will be available on low-rate-initial-production (LRIP) vehicles from 2018.
 

Redrighthand

New Member
My original question was apolitical, trying to understand the Australian Army's rationale for making such a decision.
If it was simply based on gender diversity it needs to be condemned. If it was based on recruiting women to fill jobs at which women have proven to be more adept, it needs to be explained.
It's pretty simple, to my mind. By encouraging a bigger pool of people to apply, you have a bigger pool of talent available. What difference does sex or gender make? Women have been on the front line all throughout history. Limiting our intake based on Victorian ideology re. gender roles seems ridiculous, to me.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's pretty simple, to my mind. By encouraging a bigger pool of people to apply, you have a bigger pool of talent available. What difference does sex or gender make? Women have been on the front line all throughout history. Limiting our intake based on Victorian ideology re. gender roles seems ridiculous, to me.
Very simple. Until the basic fitness standard is reduced to a mere 4 push ups to ensure diversity quotas are met, because you know, diversity is far more important on the battlefield than the physical capability to do the job...

No Cookies | Herald Sun
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's pretty simple, to my mind. By encouraging a bigger pool of people to apply, you have a bigger pool of talent available. What difference does sex or gender make? Women have been on the front line all throughout history. Limiting our intake based on Victorian ideology re. gender roles seems ridiculous, to me.
While I agree with your sentiment, what is happening here is hardly what you are talking about. A level playing field was achieved some time ago. If, as you say, 'what difference does sex or gender make', why are there gender based quotas? Surely it wouldn't matter whether men or women filled the positions?

This is my argument with the whole thing. Either we are all equal, or we're not. You can't on one hand say gender is irrelevant and then treat people differently based on their gender. Computer says no.

Now, in this case it is largely irrelevant. What is being talked about is a certain 'target' (ie, what you call a quota when you aren't allowed to have quotas) of positions are held in reserve for female applicants. If they aren't filled by the 23rd of the month, they are filled by male applicants. Since women just aren't joining up in the numbers the social engineers want, it is largely irrelevant.

As long as you aren't interesting in gender equality, anyway...
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Very simple. Until the basic fitness standard is reduced to a mere 4 push ups to ensure diversity quotas are met, because you know, diversity is far more important on the battlefield than the physical capability to do the job...

No Cookies | Herald Sun
Actually I looked further into that and while the 4 push ups seems bad (and it is) it is actually to allow them to jump into a program to aid them in getting fitter to pass the standard fitness requirements before going onto to training. So the 4 push ups isnt an issue really, What is is blocking people from positions based on gender.
 

zhaktronz

Member
So, with the transfer of the Land 400 Phase 3 capability from the ACR to the infantry battalion the time may come where IFVs face enemy armour without organic tank and mounted ATGM support.

Maybe we'll see a mounted ATGM capability on the Land 400 IFV then.
 

meatshield

Active Member
The change is purely to save manpower - if the infantry drive themselves around it takes less soldiers than having soldiers from the ACR do it. Those soldiers will then be reinvested in new capabilities. It is trading off flexibility for efficiency.

Having two mechanised battalions wouldn't make much sense - all the infantry would then be mounted in 35+ tonne vehicles, which doesn't provide many options when it comes to deployments. As it stands, one battalion will be mech and the the other will effectively be light, just with the option to drive themselves around in PMVs if appropriate.

It's probably worth pointing out that the LAND 400 equipped Army will be pretty well armoured. Of the 27 manoeuvre subunits, three will be tank, six will be cav (30+ tonne AFV) and nine will be mech (35+ tonne AFV). Essentially, two thirds of the combat force will be armoured. All the rest will be equipped with protected vehicles (Bushmaster and Hawkei) as well, so there will be no shortage of armour.
Thanks Raven.
 

Redrighthand

New Member
While I agree with your sentiment, what is happening here is hardly what you are talking about. A level playing field was achieved some time ago. If, as you say, 'what difference does sex or gender make', why are there gender based quotas? Surely it wouldn't matter whether men or women filled the positions?

This is my argument with the whole thing. Either we are all equal, or we're not. You can't on one hand say gender is irrelevant and then treat people differently based on their gender. Computer says no.

Now, in this case it is largely irrelevant. What is being talked about is a certain 'target' (ie, what you call a quota when you aren't allowed to have quotas) of positions are held in reserve for female applicants. If they aren't filled by the 23rd of the month, they are filled by male applicants. Since women just aren't joining up in the numbers the social engineers want, it is largely irrelevant.

As long as you aren't interesting in gender equality, anyway...
I think you'll find this is more a marketing shift for recruitment, rather than anything to do with treating one sex or the other favourably. If you have a history in an organisation of only having one sex fill most roles, it stands to reason you need to get pro-active on attracting others who are now eligible. Hopefully in a few years time it'll be so non-relevant it doesn't matter, and targets will be achieved naturally.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Just saw an announcement on APAC from QLD pollies and Rheinmettall regarding their bid for Land 400 Ph. 2 with Boxer.

Usual stuff, similar to the Vic pollies promoting the AMV35 recently, but one item mentioned was that one of each of the demo units last week were put through 2 major explosions, one from beneath, the other from the side..

Only the Boxer drove off the range after the blasts.
Now here's the news about that: (Right mouse click on the link and open with Incognito Window)

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...8506c1&usg=AFQjCNEYNJVKmdB2sk9hQ9_RvaCG9bxi3A

----
Defence force’s armoured vehicle evaluation proves a minefield

RORY CALLINAN
12:00AM September 18, 2017

Allegations of selective media leaks, unfair testing and complaints from a high-level defence company executive have marred the selection process for the $4 billion-plus contract to supply Australian soldiers with armoured fighting vehicles.

International defence companies BAE Systems and Patria joined together to compete with contractor Rheinmetall Defence to supply the replacement for Australia’s ageing fleet of Australian light armoured vehicles (ASLAV), which have seen extensive service in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Last month, as part of the evaluation regime, Rheinmetall’s Boxer and the joint BAE Systems-Patria AMV35 were exposed to blasting to calculate the vehicles’ ability to withstand threats such as landmines and improvised explosive devices.

Following the evaluation, claims emerged that the Boxer was able to be driven off a blast site after the tests while the AMV35 had to be towed away.

An industry source said the incident led to complaints that the Boxer was able to be driven away because it had not been drained of all fluids such as fuel — a standard requirement to prevent contamination of the site. While the AMV35, however, was unable to be driven off the pad because, as per normal, it had all fluids such as fuel drained and could not be started. The scenario of the Boxer being able to be driven away from the site appeared to have leaked to a media outlet, implying superior performance.

This situation then led to a BAE Systems executive making a complaint to Defence about the testing conditions and the leak.

Defence last week declined to comment in detail about the tests, citing commercial-in-confidence, but did say that “any concerns raised through the process have been investigated as appropriate, with suitable action taken to *remove any possible perception of bias and ensure probity of the tender process”.

Last month, in a highly unusual move that appeared to confirm concerns had been raised about the testing and the media coverage, Defence issued an extraordinary online statement quoting Land Systems Division head Major General David Coghlan as saying that not all coverage of the blast-testing results had “been as accurate as possible and some commentary *requires clarification”.

He stated that during the test and evaluation activities both *vehicles had been subjected to simulated mine-blast tests that were designed to “test the survival of the people, not the vehicle”.

“The commonwealth considers that both vehicles could move themselves once they conducted necessary maintenance actions from the test site to a nearby low loader for transport to repair and assessment workshops,’’ General Coghlan said in the August 26 statement.

BAE Systems and Rheinmetall declined to comment.

The contract is part of *Defence’s Land 400 project that involves supplying the military with 225 vehicles to replace the *existing ASLAVs by the next decade. The winning tender is be announced next year.
Now BAE System is not happy with the commentary. Perhaps they feel that by saying Boxer has a higher level of protection and the ability to survive the mine blast test, it put AMV-35 at a disadvantage.

Personally I would love to see ADF go with the Boxers. But there is a case of AMV-35, if ADF would see that the Patria AMV-28A (amphibious) version could be a serious consideration in the future, something like Patria AMV NEMO 120mm Mortar would also be a likely candidate for any mobile arty requirements.

The UK has just selected the Boxers. Surely this would put Rheinmetall in the box seat if they don't come up with some crazy quoted price.

Just my 2 cents.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
Now here's the news about that: (Right mouse click on the link and open with Incognito Window)

[snip]
Now BAE System is not happy with the commentary. Perhaps they feel that by saying Boxer has a higher level of protection and the ability to survive the mine blast test, it put AMV-35 at a disadvantage.
Just commenting on this bit.
Sure if there was a leak regarding the fact "that only one vehicle was able to drive away" from the mine testing when it had not been drained of fluids (fuel) whereas the other had. That might leave a perception that one was better than the other - publicly.
But the important people making the decisions would know all this.
I find this a storm in a teacup - if at all.
rb
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Just commenting on this bit.
Sure if there was a leak regarding the fact "that only one vehicle was able to drive away" from the mine testing when it had not been drained of fluids (fuel) whereas the other had. That might leave a perception that one was better than the other - publicly.
But the important people making the decisions would know all this.
I find this a storm in a teacup - if at all.
rb
I agree, but it could also be the opportunity for BAE to start preparing the ground for any possible future objections or appeal if they lose out in selection.
MB
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't see why NEMO, AMOS or any other mortar module couldn't also be used with the Boxer chassis. Especially with the modularity aspect of the vehicle.

A capability which IMHO is not very usefull from a real world perspective regarding swapping out modules for different roles. One doesn't take away an APC from one unit and puts a medic module lying around somewhere onto it for a special mission. But i can imagine it being an advantage when it comes to developing different role modules for the chassis.
 

Joe Black

Active Member

SteveR

Active Member
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Redrighthand

New Member
I don't see why NEMO, AMOS or any other mortar module couldn't also be used with the Boxer chassis. Especially with the modularity aspect of the vehicle.

A capability which IMHO is not very usefull from a real world perspective regarding swapping out modules for different roles. One doesn't take away an APC from one unit and puts a medic module lying around somewhere onto it for a special mission. But i can imagine it being an advantage when it comes to developing different role modules for the chassis.
I imagine it'd be a useful feature if, for example, a unit suffers mechanical failure of a type that's less common (command or medic for example) and can relatively easily swap that module onto a working chassis from the fleet, maintaining unit capability.

On a related note, each time I've watched these armoured mortar units firing, their rate of fire is less than traditional mortar teams - albeit by not much. Anyone here have thoughts on that? I suppose quicker setup times and protection whilst firing are the trade off.
 
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