ADF General discussion thread

Stampede

Well-Known Member
China sends ISR ship to Tailsman Saber, I don't recall if they have done this before for this particular EX.

Chinese Navy spy ship rattles Talisman Sabre war games off Queensland coast - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Nothing to worry about.

Probably just took a wrong turn and ended up down here by mistake,
or maybe just here enjoying some nice weather.

Certainly nothing sinister and probably just a coincidence it was in proximity to one of our largest military exercises.

Surely our largest trading partner would not be spying on us.
After all we play cricket and know how to play the game fairly.

Next people will ask questions of China's land reclamation in the South China Sea and make accusations that it's not for scientific purposes.

No really the Chinese ship has no Ill intent.

I'm sure in time I'll be proved correct. ;)

Regards S
 

foxdemon

Member
China sends ISR ship to Tailsman Saber, I don't recall if they have done this before for this particular EX.

Chinese Navy spy ship rattles Talisman Sabre war games off Queensland coast - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

China is putting a lot of pressure all over the place at present. Coast Guard ships are challenging Japanese waters, there is the stand off with India in Doklom, renewed island building activity in the SCS, etc.

Here are two articles of interest showing some respectable people, Thitinan Pongsundhirak and Chris Patten, are saying it is time to stand up to Xi Jinping.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Viewpoints/Thitinan-Pongsudhirak/A-Sino-American-showdown-in-Southeast-Asia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/28/chris-lord-patten-craven-britain-demeaned-china-brexit-craven-worse

Sir Patten describes the British pollies as 'craven'. An apt description of the 'fear and greed' mob that Abbott described.

Given the 19th National Congress is coming up in our spring time (their autumn), maybe now is the time too do the FONOP mission? We should arrange for one of our frigates to join a USN surface action group to do a cruise past an island in the SCS before spring. By joining a USN SAG, the Chinese will have difficulty making good on their threats to make and example of us. There will be retribution but their decision processes will be hampered by the change over in leadership in the National Congress.

Now is the time for the 'paper cat' to show some style.

Edit: links fixed
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

Boatteacher

Active Member
Given the 19th National Congress is coming up in our spring time (their autumn), maybe now is the time too do the FONOP mission? We should arrange for one of our frigates to join a USN surface action group to do a cruise past an island in the SCS before spring. By joining a USN SAG, the Chinese will have difficulty making good on their threats to make and example of us. There will be retribution but their decision processes will be hampered by the change over in leadership in the National Congress.

Now is the time for the 'paper cat' to show some style.

Edit: links fixed
While it's clear we should continue to conduct the FON operations we have to date (which I understand are outside the 5nm ring around the militarized islands), there are two issues with pushing it further at this time.

One you have implicitly recognized. Any Chinese party considering the use of kinetic force against a ship inside the ring must consider the reaction of the owners country of that ship. In the case of the US, that might include overwhelming retaliatory action against what would be regarded as a clear act of war. In the case of Australia it would be... nothing. There would be nothing we could do. Travelling with a US ship might (but only might) help that but then adds little to their own FON operation.

The other of course is economic pressure to which Australia is uniquely vulnerable.

Our best course would seem to be to continue to push our luck on the issue within the reasonable approach we have being doing, make our position resolutely clear but just not get around to taking the extra step of going inside the 5nm ring.
 

foxdemon

Member
While it's clear we should continue to conduct the FON operations we have to date (which I understand are outside the 5nm ring around the militarized islands), there are two issues with pushing it further at this time.

One you have implicitly recognized. Any Chinese party considering the use of kinetic force against a ship inside the ring must consider the reaction of the owners country of that ship. In the case of the US, that might include overwhelming retaliatory action against what would be regarded as a clear act of war. In the case of Australia it would be... nothing. There would be nothing we could do. Travelling with a US ship might (but only might) help that but then adds little to their own FON operation.

The other of course is economic pressure to which Australia is uniquely vulnerable.

Our best course would seem to be to continue to push our luck on the issue within the reasonable approach we have being doing, make our position resolutely clear but just not get around to taking the extra step of going inside the 5nm ring.

A fair and level headed post. We are certainly pushing our luck. I think we have to. But it is fair to give other contributors to the thread some insight into the overall situation and thus provide understanding of exactly how bold the action is that I have proposed. Let's look at what we are up against.

Hopefully I can get the link right this time.

http://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3G1EyvRZmOs

Martin Jacque isn't right on all points, in my opinion, but the value in his presentation is the way he challenges the contemporary western perspective on China. He didn't mention the saying 'there are no flies in China'. That was an episode from the '50's that illustrated Chinese determination and collective action. He makes good points on the power of the Chinese state and how its legitimacy differs from Western ideas. And also the competence of the state. In fact NE Asia governments have repeatedly demonstrated the effectiveness of centralised planning. Our own government looks somewhat ineffective in comparison.

A very important point he makes but isn't developed so much, is the idea of Chinese cultural superiority. The Middle Kingdom was the centre of humanity in the minds of Chinese over many centuries. Much of the desire to reassert the primacy of the Middle Kingdom and humiliate those associated with humiliating Chinese civilisation is about regaining that traditional dominance. So there is a good deal of ethnocentrism combined with revanchism fuelling China's foriegn policy.

He also points out rightly that America can't stop the tide of history. Ultimately they will fail to maintain their place of dominance. Not just China, but all of Asia is huge. The American economy must shrink in relative terms. And military power is built on economic power. I don't think the Americans yet realise what they are facing.

One point to disagree with Martin is that all Chinese accept the current political hierarchy in Chinese. That is self evidently not the case. Western Modernity has irreversibly changed China. The fact they are going out into the world to trade and to build naval power in itself shows the effect Western ideas have influenced China. But they haven't yet changed enough for us. Martin points out the West must change but really both China and West need to change to find accomodation.

And then there is little Australia and New Zealand. On the frontier of West and East. As the late Robin Williams described us, 'English Good Old Boys', sitting on the fulcrum of civilizational change. Well, for us the real issue is not whether we become part of Asia but rather on whose terms will we be intergrated. The trick for us is to be intergrated as much as possible on our own terms rather than someone else's terms. Bare in mind this is not new. Japan threatened Australia in WWII, which I believe was the first time a Western nation had been threatened with invasion by a non-Western power since the second siege of Vienna. It is not a surprise that we are the first Western nation to feel the full strenght of China's rise to power.

Today Beijing thinks this should happen on their terms. And they will rub it in our face. Already we are being threaten and insulted. We could roll over. This would suit a few well placed among us but won't be so good for most. We would have to accept being inferior and we would lose much opportunity to define our own future. Or we could stand up to them and demand to be respected. The later is the gutsy approach but it will involve a lot of pain. It would be best to succeed in the later rather that the former, but we might not succeed in the later. I guess it depends on how braves one is.

I should also mention the point I made in an earlier post, small countries can drag two large rivals into war. We probably don't want to drag the US and China into war. So how to stand up to them and make them respect us?

FONOP would be provocative. There will be retribution. If Australians aren't brave enough to face up to that, then we shouldn't do it. But we can't accept insults and intimidation. So I think we should do it. And what's more, the crew should bring mission specific equipment in the form of 191 pairs of cosplay style cats ears for the crew to wear on return to port. Just to make the point....
 

Goknub

Active Member
The trick for us is to be intergrated as much Just to make the point....
I think your analysis of our situation is good but your recommendation is too black or white. The reality is that we need to find the sweet spot between acknowledging China's position on issues and throwing weight behind our own. Picking a fight with a superpower isn't generally a good idea.

As Boatteacher said, the Chinese would be prepared to respond far harder against us than the USA. It's the same reason we withdrew from Syrian airspace, the Russian's wouldn't shoot down a US aircraft but would potentially down a RAAF one.

I think our actions should be tempered by the fact that while the Chinese may be rivals they are not yet our enemy. There's nothing gained by dying in a ditch for the Phillipine's fishing grounds or Vietnam's gas fields.
 
Last edited:

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
My 2 cents. Turnbulls announcement of a new department was simple political grand standing to grab votes, Our current intelligence agencies have done pretty bloody well of intercepting possible terrorist actions and adding a new layer of bureaucracy to that is more likely to do harm then good all so he could look good in front of the camera.
 

foxdemon

Member
I think your analysis of our situation is good but your recommendation is too black or white. The reality is that we need to find the sweet spot between acknowledging China's position on issues and throwing weight behind our own. Picking a fight with a superpower isn't generally a good idea.

As Boatteacher said, the Chinese would be prepared to respond far harder against us than the USA. It's the same reason we withdrew from Syrian airspace, the Russian's wouldn't shoot down a US aircraft but would potentially down a RAAF one.

I think our actions should be tempered by the fact that while the Chinese may be rivals they are not yet our enemy. There's nothing gained by dying in a ditch for the Phillipine's fishing grounds or Vietnam's gas fields.

Certainly we should carefully measure any response to situations. However can we afford to avoid risk regardless of other considerations? I came across the following article that well explains the importance of prestige. The author argues prosperity, prestige and peace (in negative terms avoiding poverty, contempt and death) as the goal of foreign policy. Prestige greatly enhances a nation's chances of success in many affairs while earning the contempt friend and foe seriously inhibits a nation's prospects.

Do Australian leaders ignore national prestige in an attempt to secure prosperity and safety and how well would such an approach work in the long run?

Here's the article:

http://https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/02/america-liberal-international-order/


Another interesting article I came across describes the relative decline of America's allies. We stand out as one of the exceptions. The first article makes the second much more interesting from a political perspective.


http://http://csbaonline.org/research/publications/dealing-with-allies-in-decline-alliance-management-and-u.s.-strategy-in-an-
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Certainly we should carefully measure any response to situations. However can we afford to avoid risk regardless of other considerations? I came across the following article that well explains the importance of prestige. The author argues prosperity, prestige and peace (in negative terms avoiding poverty, contempt and death) as the goal of foreign policy. Prestige greatly enhances a nation's chances of success in many affairs while earning the contempt friend and foe seriously inhibits a nation's prospects.

Do Australian leaders ignore national prestige in an attempt to secure prosperity and safety and how well would such an approach work in the long run?

Here's the article:

http://https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2017/02/america-liberal-international-order/


Another interesting article I came across describes the relative decline of America's allies. We stand out as one of the exceptions. The first article makes the second much more interesting from a political perspective.


http://http://csbaonline.org/research/publications/dealing-with-allies-in-decline-alliance-management-and-u.s.-strategy-in-an-
Some very interesting reading. Thank you for that and I enjoy reading your posts because IMHO they are well thought out.
 

foxdemon

Member
Some very interesting reading. Thank you for that and I enjoy reading your posts because IMHO they are well thought out.
Thank you. I will try to do some more thought provoking posts.

But today I have a question. What is the ADF's plan for dealing with hostile aircraft carrier battle groups?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Thank you. I will try to do some more thought provoking posts.

But today I have a question. What is the ADF's plan for dealing with hostile aircraft carrier battle groups?
Shadow (submerged)in far away area if asset avalible, closer to Australian mainland would be joint RAN/RAAF operation
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thank you. I will try to do some more thought provoking posts.

But today I have a question. What is the ADF's plan for dealing with hostile aircraft carrier battle groups?
Where and and under what circumstance? This is a question that VCDF and his staff will be considering in detail.

Hostile? Does this mean a hot war situation or a PLA N/Russian deployment to the Australian Area of Operations? All these situations will have responses planned either alone or as part of our strategic alliances.

The question you pose has no simple answer.
 

foxdemon

Member
Where and and under what circumstance? This is a question that VCDF and his staff will be considering in detail.

Hostile? Does this mean a hot war situation or a PLA N/Russian deployment to the Australian Area of Operations? All these situations will have responses planned either alone or as part of our strategic alliances.

The question you pose has no simple answer.

I imagine Vice American Griggs and his staff would be considering the matter. Much has changed in our part of the world in recent times. There are a whole range of threats that we must now take into consideration. Like everyone else on the forum, of course I like to give my 10 cents....for what it is worth.

OK, as to what capability to address what scenarios, I think the place to start is with basic principles: strategy and doctrine. We tend to place much store on our alliances when it comes to high end threats, specifically we rely on the Americans. But what is the best position to take with alliance support?

Let's look at it from our own perspective. Consider Singapore and the Phillipines. Singapore is well prepared. To go to their aid means just being able to bring enough power to tip the balance. Helping the Phillipines in a high end threat scenario would be much harder as we would need to do a lot of the work. Which are we more likely to help in a dire emergency?

It is much more likely that one ally will come to another ally's aid if the later is strong. So the principle for us is that we need to have some strength and thus capability to deal with threats without calling for the Americans to come to our aid. In a general high end war we can reasonably expect that allies, notably the Americans, would be going after enemy capital assets such as carriers. So it is the second scenario we need to be prepared for, that is a hostile or potentially hostile carrier battle group in our own area of concern.

In a hot war, we attack. More likely is a situation short of war where a foriegn power with a large navy (no prizes for guessing who) is using their naval strength for intimidation. In either case we need the capability to sink their carrier group, though in the later case such capability might not actually be used. We still need that capability to challenge intimidation.

What we have now is mines, SSKs and aircraft employing Harpoon. I don't we would risk our surface ships against a carrier group. The mines and SSKs are positional, they influence where a carrier group can operate. SSKs can't chase battle groups around. We might get lucky with subs or mines but that doesn't give us an option to 'go get 'em'. It is the air strike that would present a compelling reason for a carrier group to retire or be sunk.

Harpoon doesn't cut it anymore. Even against state of the art surface combatants it is out ranged. Trying to get past enemy CAP to launch would result in unacceptable attrition. We need longer ranged cruise missiles and targeting support.

Poseidon and Trition plus whatever sat data we can get will give us some targeting options. We really need those fancy new LRASM missiles. Swarm cruise missiles combined with sense platform like the P8As are probably the best we can hope for in the foreseeable future. We will be relying on 24 Super Hornets to launch the LRASM. Not a lot of capacity against a carrier group but the planes should be able to launch before the enemy air patrols can interfere too much. Is it enough to get through their defended? Also the missiles might prove vurnable to EW. But that is our main strike option. Let's hope it works.

I hope ADF brass will do their best to get our cat paws on those swarm cruise missiles as soon as the first come off the production line in a year or two. Right now we are quite vurnerable. In the long term we might need a more effective solution. I think we should start discussing such long term solutions now.
 

hairyman

Active Member
Dont forget we now have 12 Growlers to add to the mix. Maybe we should be considering some additional Super Hornets since the F35's are taking so long.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Dont forget we now have 12 Growlers to add to the mix. Maybe we should be considering some additional Super Hornets since the F35's are taking so long.
The F-35 introduction to service hasn't been delayed since it was fixed by RAAF and it's introduction is being closely aligned to the withdrawal of the legacy Hornet fleet.

Not sure why you think another interim buy is necessary at this juncture?
 

vldbzh

New Member
...economic pressure to which Australia is uniquely vulnerable...
Some people advocated close relations with China so much and what a surprise...
...the Russian's wouldn't shoot down a US aircraft but would potentially down a RAAF one...
Shoot down a Russian aircraft in response, what a problem...or Australia is not capable anymore?
 

Boatteacher

Active Member
Some people advocated close relations with China so much and what a surprise...

Shoot down a Russian aircraft in response, what a problem...or Australia is not capable anymore?
I'm not sure I really understand the point of either of your comments
 

protoplasm

Active Member
Nocookies | The Australian

Mr Pyne insisted the threat posed by North Korea was not at a point where he was receiving advice the government needed to change its military investment plans.

Over the weekend, North Korea fired three short range ballistic missiles into the Sea of Japan which travelled about 250km.

Mr Pyne cut a virtual ribbon for Raytheon Australia's whizz bang 320-degree cave of 72 screens.

He donned 3D nerd glasses and used a laser controller inside the cave, road testing the virtual reality system that brings designs to life so changes can be made before equipment is built.
I'm glad to see the quality of reporting on defence issues in Australia is maintaining its consistency. This is the stuff that makes it very difficult to have anything like a reasoned discussion with the general public regarding defence. Do we have anyone in Australia in the mainstream media who is worthwhile reading?
 
Top