Australian Army Discussions and Updates

PeterM

Active Member
I'm actually curious as to if some or all of the MRH-90s may go the same way, i.e. when it comes time for a midlife upgrade the ADF may consider replacing them instead. Actually I believe this should be matter of course for all defence equipment, what an upgrade would deliver and cost verses what a replacement would.
With the MRH-90, there does not seem to be any plan to consider replacing them. It seems there is a remediation program underway for all 47 MRH-90s (based on the publically available information in the portfolio budget statements).

Project AIR 9000 Phase 2, 4 and 6 is acquiring a total of 47 Multi Role Helicopters (MRH90) for the Army and the Navy: Phase 2 acquires 12 MRH90 for an additional Army air mobile squadron; Phase 4 replaces the Black Hawk fleet; and Phase 6 replaces Navy Sea Kings.

During 2017-18, the project is scheduled to accept all final production aircraft, bringing the total number of aircraft to 47; the final aircraft will be delivered in July 2017. The retrofit program, which upgraded the first 13 production aircraft to the mature contracted configuration, delivered the final aircraft four months ahead of schedule in April 2016. The Project focus will continue on the provision of the capabilities required to enable achievement of the remaining operational milestones in the lead-up to Final Operational Capability in 2021.

Source: Defence 2017-18 Portfolio Budget Statements, page 122
I am curious as to what the "mature contracted configuration" entails and how well it resolves the issues experienced to date with the MRH-90s. Regardless it seems the MRH-90s will be with us for the foreseeable future.
 
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SteveR

Active Member
Not much in this budget for Defence. Still no tanks. Why on earth did we get six extra M88A2 Hercules if we are not getting the extra tanks required?
Maybe we are waiting to to get a full upgraded fleet of M1A2 SEP v4 but want to wait until the new version is proven by 2021:

US engineering big upgrades for M1A2 SEP v4 Abrams tanks starting in 2021 to match Russian Armata and other new tanks | NextBigFuture.com

ARA is likely to have only one upgrade opportunity so why not get something that can match the Armata and other peer tanks that will be around in 2025 onwards.

It may be also more efficient to buy 93 stored M1A1s from US stocks then reset/upgrade them here in Australian modification line as maybe our M1A1's are a bit worn and use the experience gained to have in country support..

Aso if the M1A1 SEP v4s are lighter than our M1A1s they may actually solve the weight issue onboard the LCM1Es.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's great

mate, you need to have a read of the forum rules before posting any more responses

one line responses are not generally accepted - and your last few responses aren't acceptable

please start contributing or you run the risk of having future posts deleted
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not much in this budget for Defence. Still no tanks. Why on earth did we get six extra M88A2 Hercules if we are not getting the extra tanks required?
The extra M88s were due to Plan Beersheeba - splitting the tanks over four locations (Adelaide, Townsville, Pucka and Brisbane) instead of just two (Darwin and Pucka).

Since every location should have three M88s (one in the tank squadron, one in support squadron and one in the CSSB), clearly seven M88s wasn't enough.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The extra M88s were due to Plan Beersheeba - splitting the tanks over four locations (Adelaide, Townsville, Pucka and Brisbane) instead of just two (Darwin and Pucka).

Since every location should have three M88s (one in the tank squadron, one in support squadron and one in the CSSB), clearly seven M88s wasn't enough.
No tanks in Darwin anymore, interesting. I assume some of the ACR will be based north though?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As something completely different, I randomly noticed that the EF88/F90 features in the new Alien Covenent movie. It seems they have the optional barrel shroud/rail extension as well.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Alien:_Covenant

It's good to see the Australian Army finally makes it into space. Although it seems that while everyone else is using the M41A Pulse Rifle we are still rocking the EF88.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Nope, all of 1 Armd will be based in Edinburgh, so they can actually train all year round.
Save a bit of money from not railing the down every year too. Out of interest to anyone I found this peice on railpage, no idea we use to have a Army Railway Squadron,

Penrith in the 50's was the home of the Australian Army Railway Squadron, my father was one of the last Workshop Officers before the unit was disbanded. The TE Class wagon was a special purpose buy by the Army for carriage long distances on the standard guage network of the Centurion tanks, the wagons were maintained*by NSWGR and were allowed for use by them when not required by the Army. With the advent of the Abrams tank a new wagon was specially commissioned through CFCLA who maintain them and use them for other traffc when not required for movement of Abrams between the NT and SA. An Abrams has more hangover each side than a Centurion did*so I would imagine, out of gauge for anywhere other than the Darwin Line.*

The Army actively used rail to transport APC's and the like to major exercises* in the 70's and 80's, including loadings out to Quilpie, Qld*in 77 for Ex Brahman Drive*and as has been mentioned the Kangaroo series of exercises K I (74?), K II (76), K*III (79) and K81. I would imagine 4 Cav also used rail for the 6 Bde exercises as well at Shoalwater Bay. I am not sure how 1 Bde got its APC's and the tankis out western NSW for Ex Drought Master in 1980, I would imagine rail.

A member on another forum was an officer with B Sqn 3 Cav in Townsville and used to actively encourage rail transport from Townsville to The Caves for Shoalwater Bay.**

As for Wallangarra, I did a guard out there many years ago in the stores area, there were railway lines in the compound, but it is not a place where things move quickly if there isn't a major war, I never saw a train in my two weeks there.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
BUDGET 2017
Projects for 2nd Pass Approval 17/18

LAND 17 Phase 1C.2 Future Artillery Ammunition
I thought all the Artillery ammunition decisions had been made and deliveries were under way?
Smart 155 and Excalibur already ordered/deliverd.

And 4000 odd Precision Guidance Kits ordered over a year ago.

So what is this second pass approval related to?
 
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rossfrb_1

Member
As something completely different, I randomly noticed that the EF88/F90 features in the new Alien Covenent movie. It seems they have the optional barrel shroud/rail extension as well.

Alien: Covenant - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

It's good to see the Australian Army finally makes it into space. Although it seems that while everyone else is using the M41A Pulse Rifle we are still rocking the EF88.

The EF88 is a bit of a futuristic looker.
https://www.army.gov.au/sites/g/files/net1846/f/ef88_lrip_poster.pdf
Has feedback on the ground been positive?

One presumes the 40-watt phased plasma rifle is getting a bit long in the tooth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIPCn-aYMoM

rb
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I thought all the Artillery ammunition decisions had been made and deliveries were under way?
Smart 155 and Excalibur already ordered/deliverd.

And 4000 odd Precision Guidance Kits ordered over a year ago.

So what is this second pass approval related to?
New base ammunition, charges etc I would assume, as well as further warstock purchases / upgrades of th smart munitions already acquired.
 

Donnzy

Member
@Raven22

its a custom 3d printed shroud for the rifle for the movie, there is a segment on the movie weapons on Adam Savage's youtube channel Tested where they talk about it. same guy that made the Knife for croc dundee is the armourer for the movie
 

Beam

Member
As something completely different, I randomly noticed that the EF88/F90 features in the new Alien Covenent movie. It seems they have the optional barrel shroud/rail extension as well.

Alien: Covenant - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

It's good to see the Australian Army finally makes it into space. Although it seems that while everyone else is using the M41A Pulse Rifle we are still rocking the EF88.
Might have something to do with the movie being filmed in Oz.....
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Might have something to do with the movie being filmed in Oz.....
my daughter is an armourer for the movie industry

I can tell you with confidence that any films done in oz with a weapons component will invariably use local weapons suppliers as the import guidelines for film industry weapons companies are onerous

its just not worth their while bringing in shipping containers of weapons/props through Oz customs as the pre-planning and logistics is a borderline nightmare

so companies will use their own armourers but then subcontract supplies to a local vendor, that company doesn't have a weapons handling role on set, but as a weapons supplier with peripheral support

and quite frankly, some of the local arnourers are absolute tossers
 
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Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
@Raven22

its a custom 3d printed shroud for the rifle for the movie, there is a segment on the movie weapons on Adam Savage's youtube channel Tested where they talk about it. same guy that made the Knife for croc dundee is the armourer for the movie
Fair enough. It's similar to the rail extension Thales have developed for the EF88.
 

rjtjrt

Member
Article on helicopter availabilty in French service.

French military helicopter readiness? Depends on the fleet

Tiger average 25.6 percent.

The French Army NH90's 41.4 percent.

I would imagine French military would have potentially better chance at achieving availability than other users, as geographically closer to parts supplier, and relationship to manufacturer.

Perhaps we should have bought Russian equipment - hard to imagine it would have been more of a support problem than Eurocopter.
 

SteveR

Active Member
Article on helicopter availabilty in French service.

French military helicopter readiness? Depends on the fleet

Tiger average 25.6 percent.

The French Army NH90's 41.4 percent.

I would imagine French military would have potentially better chance at achieving availability than other users, as geographically closer to parts supplier, and relationship to manufacturer.

Perhaps we should have bought Russian equipment - hard to imagine it would have been more of a support problem than Eurocopter.
I suspect Oz is doing better than other Tiger and NH-90 operators as the following indicates our first Tiger is the first in the world to reach 2000 hours as we have built up experience:

Aussie Tiger first to achieve 2K hours

Also note LCol Lynch's comments:

“The Tiger aircraft is a potent weapon system that we have worked hard to mature to a point where it delivers the required effects on time and on target,”

“The aircraft itself has best–in-class agility and manoeuvrability which enhances our ability to employ the precise weapon effects to fight and win in either the land or amphibious environment. This agility also makes it an absolute dream to fly, as it has crisp control response and truly carefree handling characteristics, enabling greater focus on the mission.”
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I suspect Oz is doing better than other Tiger and NH-90 operators as the following indicates our first Tiger is the first in the world to reach 2000 hours as we have built up experience:

Aussie Tiger first to achieve 2K hours

Also note LCol Lynch's comments:

“The Tiger aircraft is a potent weapon system that we have worked hard to mature to a point where it delivers the required effects on time and on target,”

“The aircraft itself has best–in-class agility and manoeuvrability which enhances our ability to employ the precise weapon effects to fight and win in either the land or amphibious environment. This agility also makes it an absolute dream to fly, as it has crisp control response and truly carefree handling characteristics, enabling greater focus on the mission.”
I still wonder if the Tigers days are number
Now just maybe, it might still be thrown a bone and seen as a better option to upgrade rather than replace.
Now I realise that most on this forum pan it and would like to dump it tomorrow. However I do wonder if there is the political and defence appetite to buy another equivalent helicopter.
Realistically it wouldn't surprise me if the Tiger flies on well into the next decade.

Will just have to watch with interest

Regards S
 

t68

Well-Known Member
The US is looking at a block II version of the CH-47F, with the new found philosophy of keeping in lockstep with the US I wonder if the ADF will follow suit?

Army Upgrades Chinook to Fly Through 2060 - Better Sensors, Protection - Warrior - Scout




The Block 2 Chinook will also be engineered to accommodate a larger take-off maximum weight of 54,000 pounds, allowing it to sling-load the Army’s new Joint Light Tactical Vehicle underneath. This provides the Army with what it calls a “mounted maneuver” capability wherein it can reposition vehicles and other key combat-relevant assets around the battlefield in a tactically-significant manner without need to drive on roads. This will be particularly helpful in places such as Afghanistan where mountainous terrain and lacking infrastructure can make combat necessary movements much more challenged.
The program is looking at some significant airframe improvements like incorporating the nose and aft sections of the MH-47G (Special Operations Variant) on to the CH-47F. In addition, the program office has conducted an in depth structural analysis with the intent of setting the stage for increased growth capacity of the airframe for future upgrades,” Bratt said.
 
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