F-35 Program - General Discussion

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
blame australian industry for that.

I attended a number of industry briefs in the early days discussing the opportunity for workshare etc... these were usually conducted by AIDN

the attitude amongst the smaller SME's was in a word "provincial". they had expectations which were unfort not bought back to reality by the junior defence minister who attended.

countries like canada (which had a NAFTA advantage) hit the ground running and got even greater workshare despite no comparable committments - and which has now migrated to some latent hostility by the rest of the buyers now that they are even now talking about deselection

AusInd has no one but themselves to blame for the lack of work in comparison to others
You have to remember that back then the political and business elites were behaving as if the mining construction boom and its easy money were going to last forever meaning everything else was being shifted offshore. I worked for several companies who were not only failing to innovate but were busy giving away their IP to China, India and South Korea as part of sweetheart deals were they would produce what had been made in Australia for many years in their plants for lower cost. Easy money, except for the fact it took much longer and cost much more to get them up to speed than expected (even though the engineering teams involved in the technology transfers had warned them).

Too many decision makers were a) risk adverse, b) convinced local people were incapable of doing the work, c) that when an overseas supplier said they were capable that they were honest / competent. End result work went offshore, the result was not acceptable and had to be fixed locally by the gutted, stretched, stressed, over worked remnants' of the teams who used to do the work locally to a much higher standard and lower real/whole cost.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You have to remember that back then the political and business elites were behaving as if the mining construction boom and its easy money were going to last forever meaning everything else was being shifted offshore. I worked for several companies who were not only failing to innovate but were busy giving away their IP to China, India and South Korea as part of sweetheart deals were they would produce what had been made in Australia for many years in their plants for lower cost. Easy money, except for the fact it took much longer and cost much more to get them up to speed than expected (even though the engineering teams involved in the technology transfers had warned them).

Too many decision makers were a) risk adverse, b) convinced local people were incapable of doing the work, c) that when an overseas supplier said they were capable that they were honest / competent. End result work went offshore, the result was not acceptable and had to be fixed locally by the gutted, stretched, stressed, over worked remnants' of the teams who used to do the work locally to a much higher standard and lower real/whole cost.
it was more about arrogance and a complete unawareness of how big military primes worked.

I kid you not, but one victorian company told the junior defmin that unless the americans guaranteed all international work for a major component to be done in australia, then we should buy another plane.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Donald Trump has repeated his call for a competitive bid from Boeing against the F-35

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-aim-at-f-35-program/?utm_term=.3a330178d3ca

This is so dumb, and usually I would just ignore it ... except of course that Trump is about to be inaugurated as president.

For starters if you were really going to open up the bidding war you could not just make it a straight up contest between the F-35 and F-18. You would have to throw the competition completely open. Lockheed Martin would argue that the F-22 and F-16 should also be included in any bidding war.

Also why make such a fuss about getting bids from Boeing? The USN is already buying them so he should be well aware of what they cost.

While all this is happening what does the Donald intend doing with the F-35 program ... put it on hold?

Then of course if the competitive bid is accepted where does this leave customers that have already committed to the program?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Donald Trump has repeated his call for a competitive bid from Boeing against the F-35

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-aim-at-f-35-program/?utm_term=.3a330178d3ca

This is so dumb, and usually I would just ignore it ... except of course that Trump is about to be inaugurated as president.

For starters if you were really going to open up the bidding war you could not just make it a straight up contest between the F-35 and F-18. You would have to throw the competition completely open. Lockheed Martin would argue that the F-22 and F-16 should also be included in any bidding war.

Also why make such a fuss about getting bids from Boeing? The USN is already buying them so he should be well aware of what they cost.

While all this is happening what does the Donald intend doing with the F-35 program ... put it on hold?

Then of course if the competitive bid is accepted where does this leave customers that have already committed to the program?
and I believe that he's painted himself into a corner as his defence hats are telling him that they want to keep the program - he will continue to say the same old things and brag about what he wants to do etc etc....

hopefully he will learn once he officially clocks in that he can't keep on saying naff statements without checking other smarter people first.

the man is a buffoon, but he is the wests buffoon until he's gone and someone else replaces him
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
the man is a buffoon, but he is the wests buffoon until he's gone and someone else replaces him
Nah, you must have seen the leak, he's Mr Putins buffoon, and there is a reasonable chance to expect impeachment proceedings to start early in his administration given he doesn't seem to be able to understand things like conflict of interest. It will be interesting to see what price Boeing puts on the Super Hornet, given what we paid in Oz. It is certainly going to be interesting times.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Nah, you must have seen the leak, he's Mr Putins buffoon, and there is a reasonable chance to expect impeachment proceedings to start early in his administration given he doesn't seem to be able to understand things like conflict of interest. It will be interesting to see what price Boeing puts on the Super Hornet, given what we paid in Oz. It is certainly going to be interesting times.
OT Alert

Don't think he can be impeached for something done out of office and supposed sex acts outside the country no jurisdiction, can't see any treason involved as he would not have any access, guess they are stuck with him.

To be honest I don't really know who is the better of the two if either came to power.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
and I believe that he's painted himself into a corner as his defence hats are telling him that they want to keep the program - he will continue to say the same old things and brag about what he wants to do etc etc....

hopefully he will learn once he officially clocks in that he can't keep on saying naff statements without checking other smarter people first.

the man is a buffoon, but he is the wests buffoon until he's gone and someone else replaces him
I suspect (based on what Secdef Mattis has come out and said today) what Trump has said is nothing more than a crude smoke screen. Only the US would spend $60B+ on a major defence project and then effectively drop it. Even they won't do it it twice however...

This is nothing more than Trump's crude way of haggling and we're all going to have to get used to it. Reading the tea leaves and trying to work out what he is really saying is going to be pointless because I think the one thing that won't change is his thought bubble manner of speaking / tweeting. However there is plenty of difference in saying and doing.

F-35 isn't going anywhere. He has just chosen one of the F-35's biggest supporters (as a USMC General...) as Secretary for Defence.

Can't wait to see the howls of anguish from the ABJ crowd when their final hope is dashed... ;)
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
ABJ=AnythingButJsf Anything But JSF just to fill out the one line required here etc. etc.
:eek:fftopicCan you just imagine the poor archaeologist sods that will have to unravel all our 2-5 letter acronyms from our electronic devices a thousand years from now? I guess the good news is that if civilization goes for a dump, most of this stuff will vanish and they will have to sort through all the hard copy stuff that hopefully doesn't rot away. :D
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
The F-35C is the only model where a serious cost-savings argument can be made for going with the SuperHornet since the C at FRP will be $10-$15mil more than the F-35A.

I wonder if they are going to include the development costs of the ASH into the equation?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Found this video on another forum, and although its simplistic, and contains commentary from a.....Muppet.... Literally, its worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YDEhIp50go

Hang on, wrong link.....see if I can find it again, sorry.
Unbiased? A lot of pretty sweeping assumptions in there and I like how they gloss over the fact that the F-35 not only gets the first look, it gets the first shot every single time. Also completely skips the networking capability of the F-35 and its worlds best situational awareness. Then theres the RAM on the F-35 is going to result in very poor availability rates while the same on the SU, that apparently makes it competitive, will somehow be durable enough to give it a 75% availability rate.

Simple fact is upgraded teen series fighters will sweep the floor with the SUs, a fifth gen will slaughter them, it will pretty much like what happened to soviet designed armour in the 91 Gulf War. If the super dupa SUs were half as good as the fan bois make out there would be no Russian of Chinese fifth gen programs.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The new US Defence Secretary has ordered a review of the F-35 and Airforce One programs.

From the wording it would seem that the only the F-35C program will be reviewed.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...retary-orders-immediate-review-of-f-3-433607/

I wonder if the F-35C could be made the scapegoat.
The USN will not be amused when LHD / LHA become the more capable precision strike platform and possibly the superior air defence platform due to being able to embark fifth gen combat aircraft. If the C gets canned then we may see additional Bs acquired to at least give the CVNs some degree of first day of the war capability.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Using the demise of the Iraqi Army in '91 as an example of the inferiority of Russian equipment is misleading.;)

Even the Republican Guards were only equipped with baseline T-72s as well as export T-72Ms/M1s. Not a good comparison to the more advanced T-64, T-72 and T-80 versions in service with the Russian.

And in the end the Iraqis were at a severe disadvantage in training and tactics and fought under complete allied air supremacy.

As can be seen with the USMC units liberating Kuwait even M60s whiped the floor with the Iraqis. And I suspect no US soldier or marine would have wanted to face the red army in central europe in a M60 at the end of the cold war.

Not that your defense of the F-35 is not well deserved but wielding to wide a brush may be watering down your arguments.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Using the demise of the Iraqi Army in '91 as an example of the inferiority of Russian equipment is misleading.;)

Even the Republican Guards were only equipped with baseline T-72s as well as export T-72Ms/M1s. Not a good comparison to the more advanced T-64, T-72 and T-80 versions in service with the Russian.

And in the end the Iraqis were at a severe disadvantage in training and tactics and fought under complete allied air supremacy.

As can be seen with the USMC units liberating Kuwait even M60s whiped the floor with the Iraqis. And I suspect no US soldier or marine would have wanted to face the red army in central europe in a M60 at the end of the cold war.

Not that your defense of the F-35 is not well deserved but wielding to wide a brush may be watering down your arguments.
I understand the differences between the Iraqi army and the Soviet one but there was still a major qualitive difference between the conscripted Soviet forces and the predominantly professional US and UK forces. I think it would be fair to say the current smaller, more professional army would wipe the floor with their Soviet predecessors. Its a hard one to actually find a "within living memory" analogy for, so transformational are the qualities the F-35 brings because it makes the speed and extreme manoeuvrability mostly irrelevant.

Actually you may have come up with a good one, the upgraded M-60A3 fitted with reactive armour defeating Iraq's best with ease but put up against the latest soviet T-80 it would have been an entirely different story, the buffed up M-60A3 being the SU35 in this case. I suppose another would be trying to claim the Mig 25 is better than an F/A-18E because it's so much faster.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I suspect no US soldier or marine would have wanted to face the red army in central europe in a M60 at the end of the cold war.
I remember looking over that big flat piece of dirt near the Fulda Gap and thinking that if you were a US soldier in the 70's you must have felt a bit like the germans just before the soviets rolled 40 Divisions over the top
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Unbiased? A lot of pretty sweeping assumptions in there and I like how they gloss over the fact that the F-35 not only gets the first look, it gets the first shot every single time. Also completely skips the networking capability of the F-35 and its worlds best situational awareness. Then theres the RAM on the F-35 is going to result in very poor availability rates while the same on the SU, that apparently makes it competitive, will somehow be durable enough to give it a 75% availability rate.

Simple fact is upgraded teen series fighters will sweep the floor with the SUs, a fifth gen will slaughter them, it will pretty much like what happened to soviet designed armour in the 91 Gulf War. If the super dupa SUs were half as good as the fan bois make out there would be no Russian of Chinese fifth gen programs.
I write below it was the wrong link Volk.
I havnt even watched that whole one. I tried to find the Russian one with the Muppet.
In that scenario, it had 8 SU35,s against 4 JSF,s.
It took into account F35,s (defenders) having AWACS. Also considered that with weapons hanging off the SU35,s any speed, manourability or range advantage would be lost by the SU35,s also with the AWACS, the F35,s would have 1st shots.
In the end, there were kills on both sides,however the SU35 strike package would have failed, 6 out of 8 SU35,s probably killed, 3 of 4 F35,s probably lost. Still can't find the correct link.
 
Top