War Against ISIS

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I saw this list of turkish recent losses and the causes. I have no idea how reliable it is
https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/5jw89a/taf_armor_loses_in_albab_in_recent_clashes/

According to that it's mostly ATGM hits disabling the vehicles and of course some were abandoned.

Geopolitically I think it is better if Turkey pays dearly for Al Bab. It may make them stop their incursion into Syria there and Erdogan will understand the price to be paid even against militants. And of course anti-regime and ISIS fighters killing each other is beneficial to the Assad regime so that's good imo.

Those suicide attacks can sometimes totally turn the tide, it's really eye-opening. Maybe modern militaries should invest into suicide combat drone versions of the conventional combat drones they are developing. It is important that they look exactly the same, too.
It's a discipline issue. The problem is that undisciplined infantry units turn and run. This isn't the case when VBIEDs were used in Iraq against the US. It also didn't work out for ISIS when they ran into a Russian unit when they counter-attacked regime forces west of Palmyra. This is why I commented on the Turks being better off with their own infantry protecting their tanks.
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
I just posted this on another thread, but it's also relevant here. Until recently, ISIS wasn't the only, or even the main, enemy for the RF in Syria.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

STURM

Well-Known Member
This is might be the unit that was mentioned by the Russian analyst in the link I posted. According to him this Sunni unit - described as military police - will man checkpoints to prevent any abuses carried out on people fleeing Aleppo by Assad's troops. If the purpose for this unit being there is as he mentioned, it shows that the Russians are worried about sectarian issues and the possibility that sectarian issues will prevent more Sunni rebels from surrendering. There's a similar situation in Iraq where Shia militias in recaptured areas have treated local Sunni inhabitants harshly. Interestingly, not to long ago Iran announced that the deployment of a mainly Sunni unit [comprising Iranian and other Sunnis] to Syria and Iraq.

[No More Arab revolutions! Russia Is Established In The Middle East And Assad Is Back In Control In Syria. Whatever Happened To The Arab Spring?]
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/no-more-arab-revolutions-a7492591.html

''Syrian soldiers have a lot of time for their Hezbollah militia allies - who used to turn up on the battlefield better armed than the Syrians themselves - but are less enamoured of the Iranian “advisors” who supposedly know so much about open warfare. I have been present when an Iranian officer called a Syrian general “stupid” – in this case, the Iranian was probably right – but Syrian officers are far more battle-trained and experienced than the Revolutionary Guard from Tehran who have sustained – along with their Afghan and Iraqi Shia allies – far more casualties than they believed possible.''

''But perhaps Hollande and his European allies - and Washington - are so besotted with their own weak and flawed policies towards Syria [always supposing they can decide what these are], that they do not realise how power moves across battlefields. Instead of whinnying on about Russian brutality and mixing this in with Iranian cruelty and Hezbollah mendacity, they should be taking a close look at the mostly Sunni Muslim Syrian army which has been fighting, from the very start, against its mostly Sunni Muslim “jihadi” enemies.''

[From The Rubble Of Aleppo, ISIL Rises]
[http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/12/rubble-aleppo-isil-rises-161220114313134.html
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
A very interesting video showing a U.S. trained Iraqi unit in action in Mosul. Lots of interesting footage showing the problems encountered when up against a determined enemy operating in an urban environment. Apparently this unit is one of the better trained ones but there still appears be a lack of coordination and in some instances a lack of fire discipline [or perhaps I could be mistaken]. Towards the end of the video an Iraqi Sergeant takes down an IS man with 3 shots fired from a rooftop. There is also an Iraqi sniper wearing a ghillie suit with looks a bit out of place in an urban environment. Watching the video gives one a good idea as to why such slow progress has been made in Mosul and previously in Aleppo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gKR0eGpVTw
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
A very interesting video showing a U.S. trained Iraqi unit in action in Mosul. Lots of interesting footage showing the problems encountered when up against a determined enemy operating in an urban environment. Apparently this unit is one of the better trained ones but there still appears be a lack of coordination and in some instances a lack of fire discipline [or perhaps I could be mistaken]. Towards the end of the video an Iraqi Sergeant takes down an IS man with 3 shots fired from a rooftop. There is also an Iraqi sniper wearing a ghillie suit with looks a bit out of place in an urban environment. Watching the video gives one a good idea as to why such slow progress has been made in Mosul and previously in Aleppo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gKR0eGpVTw
Aleppo fell at a shocking speed given the poor state of the Syrian army. I suspect they have their allies to thank for that.
 

surpreme

Member
Aleppo fell at a shocking speed given the poor state of the Syrian army. I suspect they have their allies to thank for that.
Very fast considering it had a lot elite unit there. The Allies of the SAA such as Iranian special forces and Hezbollah units. The one thing I really saw that made a different was the Russians snipers. The videos I seen of them they use the U.S. Army tactics which in my opinion may have been the different. If anyone on the forum seen American Sniper that's how Russian Snipers were operating. OVERALL THE DIRECT ACTION FROM RUSSIA SPECIAL FORCES AND IRANIAN SPECIAL FORCES REALLY WHAT HELP THE SAA. The Iraq units doing this operation to capture Mosul are alone they don't have a lot American units with them like the SAA has Russia, Iranians units.

Edit: Iraqi special forces are handing thing on there own. Which is good like I said before the only units the Iraqi Chief of Staff trust are Iraqi special forces. They preforming good without American advisor by there side, There communication could be better that only weakness I see so far except some for some soldiers firing automatic like a fool. But overall the Iraq Special Forces are performing like they should after years of American help.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Very fast considering it had a lot elite unit there. The Allies of the SAA such as Iranian special forces and Hezbollah units. The one thing I really saw that made a different was the Russians snipers. The videos I seen of them they use the U.S. Army tactics which in my opinion may have been the different. If anyone on the forum seen American Sniper that's how Russian Snipers were operating. OVERALL THE DIRECT ACTION FROM RUSSIA SPECIAL FORCES AND IRANIAN SPECIAL FORCES REALLY WHAT HELP THE SAA. The Iraq units doing this operation to capture Mosul are along they don't have a lot American units with them like the SAA has Russia, Iranians units.
That's about to change though. It's my understanding that additional US troops are being deployed to Mosul to facilitate the assault. Likely they expected more from the Peshmerga but the Kurds don't seem to be very enthusiastic about frontal assaults on a heavily fortified city.

EDIT: On the subject of Aleppo, there are persistent rumors about Russians mercenaries or "private contractors" being used in the assault. I don't have details and it's hard to verify the truthfulness of these rumors because Russian military personnel especially SoF often don't wear correct uniforms.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ceasefire in Syria

Vladimir Putin: Agreement reached on Syria ceasefire
Russian President Vladimir Putin says an agreement has been reached on a countrywide ceasefire plan for Syria, with Russia and Turkey to act as guarantors.
Syrian state news agency SANA said on Thursday that the ceasefire announcement excludes the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group and Jabhat Fateh al-Sham, the group formerly known as al-Nusra Front.
Putin said the truce was set to begin at midnight on Thursday (22:00 GMT) and would be followed by peace talks between Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's government and the opposition in the Kazakh capital Astana.
Sergei Shoigu, Russia's defence minister said the truce would include 62,000 opposition fighters across Syria, and that the Russian military has established a hotline with its Turkish counterpart to monitor compliance.
The Turkish foreign ministry confirmed the agreement and called on countries with influence on groups fighting in the country to provide the necessary support for the ceasefire to last.
"Russia and Turkey strongly support the truce and will monitor it together," the ministry said.
Ankara and Moscow have been on opposing sides in the Syrian civil war, with Turkey seeking to oust Assad, who is backed by Russia and Iran.
The Syrian conflict started as a largely unarmed uprising against Assad in March 2011, but quickly developed into a full-on armed conflict.
Staffan de Mistura, the UN special envoy to Syria,*estimated*in April that more than 400,000 Syrians had been killed since 2011.
Calculating a precise death toll is difficult, partially owing to the forced disappearances of tens of thousands of Syrians whose fates remain unknown.
Almost 11 million Syrians - half the country's prewar population - have been*displaced*from their homes.
I saw on other msm sites in the last hour or so that a cease fire deal was supposed to have been reached. Hope that some good comes from it.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Aleppo fell at a shocking speed given the poor state of the Syrian army. I suspect they have their allies to thank for that.
True but interestingly, in the link I posted, Robert Fisk mentions being at a meeting/briefing between the Syrian army and the Iranians; apparently relations at times are strained with a Syrian officer on one occasion calling his Iranian counterpart ''stupid''. Whilst the performance of the Syrian army for quite a while was generally dismal; over time [as to be expected] they have improved; having learnt many lessons the painful and hard way. It's also to be expected that they will have their most competent and experienced units in Aleppo.

On paper the Syrians would have more experience than their Hezbollah and Iranian allies by virtue of being in continuous conflict for several years now but both the Iranians and Hezbollah have reportedly suffered higher losses compared to the Syrians : whether it's because the Syrians are more competent or experienced or whether it's because the Iranians and Hezbollah are used as ''fire brigades'' or as shock troops is the question.

In Iraq, we know for certain that it was only the arrival of Iranian units that in many cases halted IS when many Iraqi units broke and fled. Thus the question : at a time when the Iraqis have - mostly - got their act together - and also have non regular Shia militias which reportedly have done quite well; do they still need Iranian and Hezbollah assistance or is such assistance at present mainly symbolic and sign of unity against a common threat?
 

surpreme

Member
True but interestingly, in the link I posted, Robert Fisk mentions being at a meeting/briefing between the Syrian army and the Iranians; apparently relations at times are strained with a Syrian officer on one occasion calling his Iranian counterpart ''stupid''. Whilst the performance of the Syrian army for quite a while was generally dismal; over time [as to be expected] they have improved; having learnt many lessons the painful and hard way. It's also to be expected that they will have their most competent and experienced units in Aleppo.

On paper the Syrians would have more experience than their Hezbollah and Iranian allies by virtue of being in continuous conflict for several years now but both the Iranians and Hezbollah have reportedly suffered higher losses compared to the Syrians : whether it's because the Syrians are more competent or experienced or whether it's because the Iranians and Hezbollah are used as ''fire brigades'' or as shock troops is the question.

In Iraq, we know for certain that it was only the arrival of Iranian units that in many cases halted IS when many Iraqi units broke and fled. Thus the question : at a time when the Iraqis have - mostly - got their act together - and also have non regular Shia militias which reportedly have done quite well; do they still need Iranian and Hezbollah assistance or is such assistance at present mainly symbolic and sign of unity against a common threat?
You got to look at structure of the SAA. Here what's going on the SAA regular unit are nothing but conscript which we already know some went AWOL and other switch to FSA and Jihadists. The Elite units such Desert Hawks, Tiger Forces, Republican Guard 4th Mech (armoured) Div are paid soldiers. During the time Iranian and Hezbollah forces came into conflict they had problems with the regular SAA units they would leave them by there selves which cause a lot causality. So the high command change regular SAA to secondary roles in which they fell that task too. There were cases where SAA regular unit just retreated and left there equipment. The Tiger Forces were made up from older retired special forces or from other unit that survive from other area of operation. The Tiger forces upper commanders are intelligence officers so they know how to pick right ones. The Iranian and Hezbollah were use as shook troops because how the Regular SAA units didn't show offensive effort.

Syrian High Command must be given credit for where they put the regular SAA units at the right place. The SAA units are not full size unit always up to Division down to platoon level. Overall SAA is run by shook troops who always on the offensive and regular SAA are secondary forces. The Iranians and Hezbollah are discipline soldiers which at time causes them to hit hard which result in high deaths. I must add this the Iranians and Hezbollah don't have full units such as engineers, artillery, tanks, signal, target finder, and supply units also not it own air force this itself will cause high rate of soldiers kill also this coming from a ex military personnel. In a Western Army unit involved would been called a Task Force where all these personal would have been involved. Overall the high rate of death among Iranian and Hezbollah is due to depending on SAA for other tasks which they are not capable of handling example is artillery. The SAA artillery are just plain garbage.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Edit: Iraqi special forces are handing thing on there own. Which is good like I said before the only units the Iraqi Chief of Staff trust are Iraqi special forces. They preforming good without American advisor by there side, There communication could be better that only weakness I see so far except some for some soldiers firing automatic like a fool. But overall the Iraq Special Forces are performing like they should after years of American help.
Iraqi special forces are trained by US, Australian and NZ trainers

The reason why there is no in-strength attached western advisors is because the Iraqis agree that they need to do the job as they are part of the regional solution

It was a deliberate choice not to attach warfighting trainers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
https://tr.usembassy.gov/statement-12282016/

Does this mean they been training, arming, embedding specialists, providing airpower and logistics/intelligence support to the SDF but not the kurdish factions? Because they are separate entities?
its exactly what it says

if you listen to other kurdish groups they clearly state that they have received arms, comms and other support from the US and some NATO/affil partners

what the US won't provide is heavy unit fielded weapons - but they compensate that with CAS (as well as C4ISR and the Kurds using their own people in a JTAC role.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
its exactly what it says

if you listen to other kurdish groups they clearly state that they have received arms, comms and other support from the US and some NATO/affil partners

what the US won't provide is heavy unit fielded weapons - but they compensate that with CAS (as well as C4ISR and the Kurds using their own people in a JTAC role.
What you said sounds different from what the US government claims.

The United States government has not provided weapons or explosives to the YPG or the PKK – period.
They said they have provided no weapons or explosives to those kurdish groups - PERIOD.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What you said sounds different from what the US government claims.


They said they have provided no weapons or explosives to those kurdish groups - PERIOD.
no shortage of videos showing kurdish fighter interviews where they talk about US supplies of small arms and what they wish they had from the US. ie some factions are getting small arms and EOD support. As well as comms etc...

in fact I watched a documentary not 3 days ago where the Kurdish leader talked about those exact issues - and where he happily called in US air support as they had no heavy organic response and needed an assist

no shortage of aust govt puff pieces which also run articles about what has been provided at the small arms level

PERIOD

dial back the attitude or you'll be on holiday

I'm not one to state things just to fill in time
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
its exactly what it says

if you listen to other kurdish groups they clearly state that they have received arms, comms and other support from the US and some NATO/affil partners

what the US won't provide is heavy unit fielded weapons - but they compensate that with CAS (as well as C4ISR and the Kurds using their own people in a JTAC role.
I wonder how well that actually works. I can imagine a Kurdish fighter calling in a CAS 9-line but actually filling the shoes of a JTAC?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder how well that actually works. I can imagine a Kurdish fighter calling in a CAS 9-line but actually filling the shoes of a JTAC?
they're not a real JTAC, it was known terminology used as a convenience to illustrate that they are getting comms assistance and act in a similar role. they obviously don't have JTAC training etc... and unless there are SF as active "advisers", then its organic
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
they're not a real JTAC, it was known terminology used as a convenience to illustrate that they are getting comms assistance and act in a similar role. they obviously don't have JTAC training etc... and unless there are SF as active "advisers", then its organic
I mean there's a huge difference between walking a jet on to a target, identifying correct munitions to use against the target, and actively lasing a target or providing a 10 or 12 digit grid for the pilot. I guess there probably isn't a real answer to this but I was curious to what extent the Kurds were able to fill the role of a JTAC or FAC? Obviously less then completely but how much less?
 
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