Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
John Newman

The current RCAF structure revolves around the basing of aircraft at two primary bases with the occasional deployment of aircraft to the noted bases in my suggestion. Given our vastness I am suggesting that the Rhinos be distributed so that there is one available at all times from these FOB's, thus three per location. As an example the current fighter base at Cold Lake is almost 2000 air kms from Inuvik. Cold Lake to Comox, on Vancouver Island, 1150 km. Bagotville to Gander Newfoundland is 1200 km.

The main base for Super Hornet operation would be Bagotville with 12 Growlers. These would provide the training and the six deployable aircraft and act as the squadron that supplies pilots and crews on rotation to the FOB's. If additional Rhinos are needed to provide attrition aircraft and training aircraft then so be it but given our proximity to the USN it makes more sense to pay for the priviledge and use their numbers for training. Basically what I am advocating is the Rhinos are for home use and the Growlers are deployable. The aircraft and crews at the FOB's would be similar to the situation with the flight of RAF Typhoons deployed to the Falklands.

Like New Zealand there is no direct aggressive air threat to Canada but there is a need for interception of undeclared aircraft and maritime strike if needed. We do not need a fifth generation fighter to do this. We need long legs and ruggedness with the ability to provide weapons delivery if needed. There was a time during the cold war when we fielded hundreds of interceptors from bases across the country but times have changed and like everything else in our lives we operate with minimums and manage risk differently.

The 48 F35's would be three squadrons as you suggest with two operational and a training squadron. Again given our proximity to the USAF assets why not take advantage of this as well. These aircraft would be our primary overseas deployable aircraft to operate with coalition partners. They would also be available for home use if needed but other than the odd aggressive moose or beaver there isn't much threat in north central Alberta.

There is no doubt that our two countries have similarities but also differences with regard to defence. I have said this before but Canada has to become a niche force because we can not be everything for every situation. If our legacy CF18's were not so old I could see them being the home defence but time has an effect on these systems regardless of how well they have been maintained.

Junior will fulfill his promise of not buying the F35 under his watch. It will cost us penalties. But he and his Libtard cronies don't care about that. Its all about political face.
All you are doing is breaking down the number's of aircraft so much that few if any would be of any effective use.

Splitting the Growler's up is an exercise is futility as within Canada the serve little to no purpose, They are an asset that would show the most promise when deployed abroad. Splitting them up into little subgroups makes command of the unit difficult, training impossible and maintenance extremely costly when you consider rather then having one group of men and women at a single local you need to have 4 different sets of men and women at 4 different locals. None of these deployments would provide any benefit to Canada.

12 Super Hornets is a waste of funds, had they been acquired pre or even early 2010 then they would have been of use but this late in the game it's a waste of funds. It is further waste when the single squadron would actually only have the technical strength of half a squadron when you account for maintenance and training. Good and capable aircraft but pointless when acquired in so few a number.

If a mixed fleet and spread out force was wanted then you would have the asset's assigned to 2 - 3 bases located to the far west, centrally and the far east with 3 squadrons of F-35's, 2 squadrons of Super Hornets and 1 squadron of Growlers. Have one F-35 squadron located at each of the 3 bases, 1 SH squadron located to the West and East and the Growler squadron located centrally.

That said Canada would be better off with the F-35 only, There force is just far too small to allow for the deployment of multiple aircraft types in number's that would make them an asset. With the number's you are proposing it will drive up costs, make training harder and effective maintenance all but impossible for everything bar the F-35's.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
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  • #263
Wow, to meet the serious deficiency in air defence, our failed drama teacher POS PM junior is going to shore up our fighter fleet with an interim buy of 18 frigging SHs and hold a competition for additional fighters in 5 years. No mention of price because they don't have any idea (more than it would have been 6 months ago well before Kuwait ordered jets). No information on any of the upgrades planned for the so called ASH.

This urgent need won't see much advancement given the time these fools take to complete a procurement order. Then add in the production factor. Currently, the production rate is 2 jets per month. Will the USN and Kuwait run to the back of the line so Canada can get its jets delivered in a year and half from whenever a PO is issued? Does it make sense for Boeing to increase the rate of production, perhaps, if they could get Finland and/or Switzerland orders as well.

Finally, if anyone thinks this interim buy is for urgent need they are delusional. This is nothing more than a grand plan to rig the future competitive acquisition in the SH's favour. Listening to General Vance praising the SH was embarrassing.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
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  • #265
It isn't anything yet as the government has yet to have a formal discussion and rest assured that no matter WTF they call this, these 18 SHs will be the property of the Canadian government down the road. If and when this happens, it will mark the end of LM's chances for the follow-on order. It will also start the eventual cancellation of all Canadian aerospace work on the JSF program. I am sure LM will emphasize this on the day junior gives Boeing a contract.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
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  • #266
This link to the National Post story is a great summary of the BS surrounding this SH acquisition. Note the information about the commander of the RCAF, Lt-Gen Mike Hood, not showing up at the announcement of this acquisition, a clear sign of his displeasure and a slap in the face to junior, Minister Sajjan, and chief of defence staff General Vance. None of them had the balls to force his presence knowing full well the shitstorm that would likely occur.
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...ase-a-political-solution-to-political-problem
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
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  • #268
Finally, a little late albeit. Taking a page from RAAF I would assume.

It will be another 1/2 to a decade before F-35 will truly be ready. Singapore, too, has deferred their buy and preferred to stick with the 4th Gen F-15SGs.
The Canadian Hornet fleet can run to 2025, the RCAF confirmed this when junior first proposed the "interim SH buy". The public outcry over this resulted in a phoney assessment of the fleet and they now claim they can't meet treaty commitments. Utter BS to cover their political mistake.

It will be interesting to see how Boeing manages to meet this urgent requirement. Kuwait has been waiting for years on State Department approval for SHs. Are they to take a backseat on delivery now? Does the USN really want to their jets delayed? Boeing produces 2 jets per month so they will have to either ramp up production or delay deliveries to the forementioned customers. I can't believe LM is letting this go unchallenged. Surely the momentum of the JSF program could produce 18 F-35s in the same amount of time as Boeing coming up with 18 SHs?
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
So 18 aircraft will be "acquired". I agree that there could be either a lease or a buy.

Whatever happens doesn't change the fact that SH's will fly with a Maple Leaf on the tail. But from where will these 18 aircraft operate from? Are they being kept for NORAD duties or will they be the sharp end for likely involvement in overseas missions? If its the later will they be based at Bagotville? With two different air frames and two different maintenance streams does it not make sense to separate the two completely?

If, as has been said that, only 44 legacy air frames are likely to be kept airworthy this is roughly what is based at Cold Lake.

I think the defenders of Canada will soon have a new motto patterned after Juniors "Sunny Ways", "Darker Days" more aptly describes where things are going.

I hope that the model chosen is at least wired for Growler upgrades at a later date. The likely purchase is all Rhino at this time and likely more singles rather than doubles.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Seriously folks, you guys are just way too negative. At least you are getting 18 new planes rather than nothing. Super bugs aint bad in anybody's imaginations. Plus, you could always depend on your southern neighbour, just like our Kiwis brothers depending on us Aussies :)

Our RAAF loves their Rhinos. I'm sure you guys will soon find it pleasantly surprising that SH is not half as bad as you would have thought. Look, seriously, the F-35 has some issues to sort out. Smart buyers like Singapore are waiting out for the yanks to get their act together. Why not just wait out a bit like us here down under, and enjoy flying the newer Rhinos.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
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  • #271
Seriously folks, you guys are just way too negative. At least you are getting 18 new planes rather than nothing. Super bugs aint bad in anybody's imaginations. Plus, you could always depend on your southern neighbour, just like our Kiwis brothers depending on us Aussies :)

Our RAAF loves their Rhinos. I'm sure you guys will soon find it pleasantly surprising that SH is not half as bad as you would have thought. Look, seriously, the F-35 has some issues to sort out. Smart buyers like Singapore are waiting out for the yanks to get their act together. Why not just wait out a bit like us here down under, and enjoy flying the newer Rhinos.
Oz will end up with a combination of 36 Rhinos and Growlers along with 70 plus F-35s. Canada will end up with 18 SHs and maybe 45 F-35s or worse still 65-70 SHs by 2030. How viable are F-18Es going to be in 2035? My guess is not very viable and after only 12-15 years of service we will once again have insufficient capability and even less money to buy addtional fighters. Hence the negativity.
 

Delta204

Active Member
Seriously folks, you guys are just way too negative. At least you are getting 18 new planes rather than nothing. Super bugs aint bad in anybody's imaginations. Plus, you could always depend on your southern neighbour, just like our Kiwis brothers depending on us Aussies :)

Our RAAF loves their Rhinos. I'm sure you guys will soon find it pleasantly surprising that SH is not half as bad as you would have thought. Look, seriously, the F-35 has some issues to sort out. Smart buyers like Singapore are waiting out for the yanks to get their act together. Why not just wait out a bit like us here down under, and enjoy flying the newer Rhinos.
Hard to argue with this... in fact this interim SH buy almost guarantees that we'll be getting F-35's once the final competition is launched IMO.

If the Liberals thought that the SH would beat F-35 right now in a open competition they would have skipped the interim purchase and gone straight to it... but they knew very well that the F-35 would win so they came up with plan B to save face. Plus you never know, maybe the Trump administration will go ahead with Raptor restart and convince Congress to sell an export version :D
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Seriously folks, you guys are just way too negative. At least you are getting 18 new planes rather than nothing. Super bugs aint bad in anybody's imaginations. Plus, you could always depend on your southern neighbour, just like our Kiwis brothers depending on us Aussies :)

Our RAAF loves their Rhinos. I'm sure you guys will soon find it pleasantly surprising that SH is not half as bad as you would have thought. Look, seriously, the F-35 has some issues to sort out. Smart buyers like Singapore are waiting out for the yanks to get their act together. Why not just wait out a bit like us here down under, and enjoy flying the newer Rhinos.
While there is a level of negativity it also comes down to looking at each nations seriousness in it's treatment of it's defence forces.. Australia, Singapore etc take theres seriously so even if they get an interim safe option you know that they will get the better asset when it is either available or proven, Canada does not fall into the category of a nation that takes it's defence forces seriously.

Regards, VN.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Finally, a little late albeit. Taking a page from RAAF I would assume.

It will be another 1/2 to a decade before F-35 will truly be ready. Singapore, too, has deferred their buy and preferred to stick with the 4th Gen F-15SGs.
That is hardly new's as the process for acquiring the F-15SG's started over a decade ago with a contract placed in December 2005 for 12, and in October 2007 exercised it's options for 8 other aircraft plus an additional 4.. And all of the started back in 1998 when they put out tenders so it hardly has any bearing on the F-35 what so ever.

As for the SH for Canada not so sure it will be clean cut. Australia made there initial anouncement for them in 2007, and only had 15 by the end of 2010.. Assuming (ie: Not bloody likely) that the Canadian government can get through buying these with out any one cancelling them or the need for more then 1 review (Australia did have one) then they would be looking at a 3 1/2 - 4 year time period to acquire the 18 if they can get the USN to give up some of there production slots. In short we wont see this squadron operational until early 2020? give or take and that is the best case scenario.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Seriously folks, you guys are just way too negative. At least you are getting 18 new planes rather than nothing. Super bugs aint bad in anybody's imaginations. Plus, you could always depend on your southern neighbour, just like our Kiwis brothers depending on us Aussies :)

Our RAAF loves their Rhinos. I'm sure you guys will soon find it pleasantly surprising that SH is not half as bad as you would have thought. Look, seriously, the F-35 has some issues to sort out. Smart buyers like Singapore are waiting out for the yanks to get their act together. Why not just wait out a bit like us here down under, and enjoy flying the newer Rhinos.
Yes the Rhino's are providing a window into the capability provided by the F-35 and they are a more capable platform than the classic Hornet ..... that does not mean we would keep them in lieu of F35 and I suspect our pilots will love that aircraft as well when it comes into service noting the F35 is a more capabile platform compared to the F18F.

I fully expect we will replace the Super Hornet with a new capability (be it a UAV or more F-35s).

The issue for us is critical mass for the Growlers. We have 12, would we aquire more or convert some of the pre-wired Super Hornets to have a capability we can maintain.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Yes the Rhino's are providing a window into the capability provided by the F-35 and they are a more capable platform than the classic Hornet ..... that does not mean we would keep them in lieu of F35 and I suspect our pilots will love that aircraft as well when it comes into service noting the F35 is a more capabile platform compared to the F18F.

I fully expect we will replace the Super Hornet with a new capability (be it a UAV or more F-35s).

The issue for us is critical mass for the Growlers. We have 12, would we aquire more or convert some of the pre-wired Super Hornets to have a capability we can maintain.
Wouldn't also rule out the F/A-XX (6th gen) though that too may be UAV.

In regards to the Growlers.. With 72 F-35's even if we converted the pre wired Super Hornets to Growlers we would still have an air combat fleet of 84 aircraft plus 24 Growlers, Could we support (specifically in pilots) having 96 combat aircraft and 24 Growlers? From memory in the past we have had issues with lack of pilots and that was when the fleet of F-111's and Hornets where below 100.. Honestly just curious.

Cheers.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
It will be another 1/2 to a decade before will truly be ready.
Where do you get this stuff?

Anyone who orders an F-35 today will get a Block3F (final post SDD) fighter in 2-3 years. There is no need to wait till after SDD to actually place your order.

btw, The USMC & USAF are already doing things with their F-35s that could never be done in legacy aircraft, they are ready enough.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Where do you get this stuff?

Anyone who orders an F-35 today will get a Block3F (final post SDD) fighter in 2-3 years. There is no need to wait till after SDD to actually place your order.

btw, The USMC & USAF are already doing things with their F-35s that could never be done in legacy aircraft, they are ready enough.
Not many takers for LRIP 9 and 10. BTW, that's the perception Singapore Mindef is having, and given they are considered one of the smartest buyers, I take their move as a good indication of where F-35 progress is at. Furthermore, from our own RAAF purchase and timeline, you can see where we are heading. We will only be operating 14 F-35s for a while to come after 2020-2022, before we will decide to place the big orders. Says a lot about the F-35 program isn't it. Unlike the US Marines having lost or losing their Harriers, RAAF does not need to rush to place the order having now a good sizeable fleet of Rhinos and Growlers.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
LRIP 9/10 are years old, not today's contracts with include Israel, Turkey, UK, SK, Japan, Norway, etc.

The USMC is not "losing" their Harriers, they just got all teh UK ones for parts.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Not many takers for LRIP 9 and 10. BTW, that's the perception Singapore Mindef is having, and given they are considered one of the smartest buyers, I take their move as a good indication of where F-35 progress is at. Furthermore, from our own RAAF purchase and timeline, you can see where we are heading. We will only be operating 14 F-35s for a while to come after 2020-2022, before we will decide to place the big orders. Says a lot about the F-35 program isn't it. Unlike the US Marines having lost or losing their Harriers, RAAF does not need to rush to place the order having now a good sizeable fleet of Rhinos and Growlers.
As I pointed out earlier, Singapore's F-15SG order dates back from a tender put out in 1998, Long before the F-35 would have been ready to even be a contender in that competition so Singapore choosing the F-15SG has ZERO bearing on the F-35 what so ever.

Trying to make out that the Singaporean Defmin views that F-35 in a bad light based on a flawed argument does not make it a fact.

As for the RAAF our SH order was as an interim turned permanent replacement for the F-111's, They became so costly to operate they were retired in 2010 and replaced by SH's as we needed something quick rather then have an unknown time frame in capability gap. That has zero bearing on how the RAAF views the F-35.

What does having bearing in how the Australian government and RAAF view the F-35 is that they HAVE placed an order for a total of 72 aircraft, It isn't a we are thinking about it but a firm deal with intended acquisition numbers year by year.

Your trying to turn Australia and Singapore buying Super Hornets and F-15SG's into an anti F-35 view when the time frames have no correlation with the F-35 what so ever....

As to sizeable fleet, 12 Growlers and 24 Rhino's does not make a sizeable fleet for Australia when accounting for training, maintenance, over seas deployments and local operations.....
 
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