F-35B/C - Naval Air Discussions (USN & USMC)

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
considering the fact that what RAAF/ADF are doing with Plan Jericho is considered by the americans to be transformational, then we've already got a big enough apple to bite

the "c" word in RAN conversations is a PITA as it just invites woulda coulda shoulda debates where we then end up with conversational and pointless wash rinse dry cycles.

from a US perspective, and noting the thread topic title - well its more than approp

I am however more than interested in what other opportunities can be realised from data exchanges with the P8's and possible HAAWC developments
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
More detail on the test here including video. All the previous theoretical musings of the F-35's primary value as a flying sensor node now come into sharp focus with this remarkable demonstration. And to think direct F-35-to-AEGIS MADL link was never really envisioned to begin with.

https://news.usni.org/2016/09/13/vi...-expansion-networked-naval-warfare#more-21593
The article also goes in depth about how the Japanese and ROK F35s will also be integrated into the network with MALD and link 16. All three Navies will be well integrated.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I can imagine Japan and Korea both eventually going for the B model and deploying them from their flat decks. I anticipate it's only a matter of time before we see Bs cross decking on Izumo, if not the Hyugas, as well as the Dokdo.

I know the USN has traditionally opposed the acquisition of small carriers but the capability of the F-35B, as well as the rapid evolution of UAVs must make a small carrier / aircraft cruiser more and more attractive. This would not be a replacement for conventional carriers but rather a very capable addition to the surface fleet, or even a replacement for the long retired CVS fleet, but more versatile.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I know the USN has traditionally opposed the acquisition of small carriers but the capability of the F-35B, as well as the rapid evolution of UAVs must make a small carrier / aircraft cruiser more and more attractive. This would not be a replacement for conventional carriers but rather a very capable addition to the surface fleet, or even a replacement for the long retired CVS fleet, but more versatile.
ironically, JSF jumpers have done exactly that - doubled the number of hulls that can be used for big task force work, they haven't doubled the fixed wing component but they have increased their effectiveness because it means that red team now how to deal with 11+10 fleets/task forces give or take which ones are in in maint and refit
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ironically, JSF jumpers have done exactly that - doubled the number of hulls that can be used for big task force work, they haven't doubled the fixed wing component but they have increased their effectiveness because it means that red team now how to deal with 11+10 fleets/task forces give or take which ones are in in maint and refit
Exactly! It completely transforms what a surface action group could look like and be capable of. Just imagine the potential of the new generation helicopters / tiltrotors when the inevitable ASW versions become available.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member

colay1

Member
So the F-35 is able to contribute to the CEC network generating a unified target track so long as it remains within comms range of any node. There is more in it's bag of tricks as it apparently can take control of the SM-6 while in flight if the need arises to help guide it to the target. Or it can pass control of the missile to another F-35 if called for.



https://news.vice.com/article/us-de...n-blow-up-anything-it-wants-any-time-it-wants
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So the F-35 is able to contribute to the CEC network generating a unified target track so long as it remains within comms range of any node. There is more in it's bag of tricks as it apparently can take control of the SM-6 while in flight if the need arises to help guide it to the target. Or it can pass control of the missile to another F-35 if called for.



https://news.vice.com/article/us-de...n-blow-up-anything-it-wants-any-time-it-wants
its more than that - a few years back it was explained to me that was a battlespace manger in its own right, and that its able to do much more than some of the larger dedicated ISR assets can do, you can see why Plan Jericho has attracted so much attention from the USMC (esp)

the wild card is how many weapons artifacts it can concurrently manage and steer etc....- and what it can do with swarms of UAS packages
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Exactly! It completely transforms what a surface action group could look like and be capable of. Just imagine the potential of the new generation helicopters / tiltrotors when the inevitable ASW versions become available.
Agreed, the USN new America Class LHAs are just that IMO. The first two of the clas have no well deck instead have additional aviation facilities. Smaller carriers
 

r3mu511

New Member
So the F-35 is able to contribute to the CEC network generating a unified target track so long as it remains within comms range of any node. There is more in it's bag of tricks as it apparently can take control of the SM-6 while in flight if the need arises to help guide it to the target. Or it can pass control of the missile to another F-35 if called for.
this is interesting: is the vice.com article saying that the F35 is performing the missile uplink (for midcourse guidance updates) directly itself?

or is it still doing it the usual way with a spy1 actually performing the missile uplink communication to the sm6...

if it's the former, anyone have other refs/urls for this direct F35 to sm6 uplink comms?

the raytheon news release on the latest sm6-F35-cec/nifcca test isn't explicit and just says the sm6 "received continuous updates from the network, including the fighter aircraft..." (Raytheon: U.S. Navy links Standard Missile-6 with F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in first-of-a-kind flight test - Raytheon multi-mission missile teams with next-gen aircraft to destroy over-the-horizon target)
 

colay1

Member
More will be revealed in time - or not. But we know that Tomahawk has been guided in-fight by a F-18 during recent anti-ship missiie tests so it's not far-fetched to think the far more advanced and capable CNI on the F-35 has a similar ability.
Also, this capability is required for interceptions at extended distances where the target is below the radar horizon so guidance from the launching ship, or any other CEC node, will not be possible.
 

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
this is interesting: is the vice.com article saying that theis performing the missile uplink (for midcourse guidance updates) directly itself?

or is it still doing it the usual way with a spy1 actually performing the missile uplink communication to the sm6...
The SM-6 was specifically designed with the guts of the AMRAAM up front with the intention of taking updates from tactical aircraft. They did this so that the SM-6 can hit OTH targets that are not in the SPY's LOS.
 

r3mu511

New Member
^fwiw, that guidance portion from the amraam was the active (arh) seeker, the midcourse uplink comms ring was still from the sm-2 since spy1 performs midcourse uplinks in s-band...

---

regarding the oth position of the target with respect to the launching ship, yes the target is oth to the ship's spy1 but if the sm6 is flying a lofted/up-and-over trajectory then during the midcourse phase of it's trajectory the sm6 might not necessarily be oth to the spy1 thus allowing for comm uplink between the sm6 and spy1...

this is why I'm curious if it was indeed the F35 performing midcourse updates comms directly to the sm6 since this would mean even the trajectory of the sm6 during midcourse can be oth with respect to the ship...

---

the USNI article link on the latest test (posted in a previous post) says the F35 used was an "unmodified" F35 which makes me wonder if the USNI article is implying the F35 was not modified to perform comm uplink to the sm6; or (even with an unmodified F35) if the sm6 was using a dual-band* comm uplink ring which was modified to allow the it to accept comms from the F35 in the uplink protocol the F35 normally uses for an amraam uplink...

(* raytheon does offer these dual-band x- and s- uplink rings for the SM series in order to support uplinks from systems like the x-band APAR, so I wonder if they modified one to accept the comm protocol which is used by the amraam)

I'm still hunting around for any more refs/urls with info on the uplink method for this test, but I guess like @colay says maybe in time more details will come out (or not).
 

colay1

Member
Not a direct confirmation but read between the lines ref GF's last post ie. #269 and .. "the wild card is how many weapons artifacts it can concurrently manage and steer etc....- and what it can do with swarms of UAS packages." a capability you would want a battle manager to possess.
 

colay1

Member
Exciting times for the Marines who are busy exploring how to tap the versatile capabilities inherent in the F-35B. The jet just makes every other platform/asset around it so much more effective.

https://news.usni.org/2016/11/07/mawts-1-marine-aviation-future-fight#more-22378

Even as operational testers are working out the specifics of how to operate the F-35 onboard an amphibious ship, MAWTS-1 has already fully integrated the Joint Strike Fighter into its anti-air warfare, air-to-ground support, Marine Expeditionary Unit operations and other missions. MAWTS-1 Commanding Officer Col. James Wellons told USNI News in a Nov. 1 interview that the F-35B has been flying in support of the train-the-trainers WTI courses for several years and, as of the fall course that wrapped up on Oct. 22, is “fully integrated in either a supporting role or a leading role in almost every evolution that we do.”

“In some cases the F-35’s fighter capabilities are used – we have a couple of anti-air warfare missions we fly where the F-35 plays a prominent role in terms of not only its fighter capabilities as a missile shooter but also its command and control capabilities in terms of the situational awareness the F-35 provides to the other players who are out there. The F-35 is able to act as a quarterback basically for the other fighters out there, so because of their unbelievable situational awareness even if they don’t have the missile to shoot at a given time they can provide the asset that does have the capability to shoot with the weapons information that it needs,” he said.

“As an air-to-ground platform, as a close-air support weapon or as an airplane that can go out and do armed reconnaissance and coordination, we have also fully integrated the F-35 and we operate it in a similar fashion to the way we operate the legacy fourth-generation platforms, the F-18s and the Harriers. … Also as a sort of an airborne command and control platform, the F-35 entify potential surface-to-air threats that are out there and share that information with ground forces and other players out there on the battlefield.”...

“I think when we first brought in the F-35 we sort of viewed it as a fourth-generation platform on steroids that was low-observable. So we sort of tried to put the F-35, which is really a completely new weapon system, into almost the square peg of a fourth-generation platform,” Wellons said.

“And we’ve grown over the time that we’ve had the F-35 to gain a much greater appreciation – it would be a tremendous waste to see the F-35 as just a low-observable Hornet, because the reality is the F-35 brings tremendous electronic warfare capability, situational awareness, increased lethality in a myriad of different ways. I mentioned the quarterback piece with the fighter threat earlier – to put the F-35 out there as a missile truck basically and have it go down range and take out the air threat and then leave, you’re missing out on the opportunity that the other players, the other platforms are going to get to gain the situational awareness that that F-35 has.”

more...
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
More Progress for the USMC and the F35

Last week off the coast of San Diego the USMC took 12 F35s to sea for the first time beginning more training toward full integration of its capabilities. Interesting they discuss F35/Aegis integration.


Some of the highlights

On top of that, 19 Marine pilots carrier qualified in the past three weeks. For perspective, eight Marine F-35B pilots carrier qualified over the last four years, Burns says. Before today’s proof of concept, seven F-35Bs from Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 23 (VX-23) and VMX-1 and personnel from 12 agencies did this:

First integration of ALIS SOU version 2 aboard a ship
Removed and replaced the entire engine, drive shaft and lift fan of an F-35B over 12 days, including during heavy seas. The plane flew while we were there.
First live ordnance operations aboard a ship
First F-35B integration with AEGIS
First integration with MV-22B Ospreys (2), a UH-1Y Venom and an AH-1Z Viper aboard a ship
Block 3F software was flown aboard ship for the first time at sea.
The first Royal Navy pilot was carrier qualified


More data and videos in the link

Marines Pound USS America’s Deck With F-35Bs: VIDEOS! « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
 

DaveS124

Active Member
Some Australians were with the combined US/UK F-35B unit in USS America.

In addition to the U.K.'s team, Australian service members integrated with various departments from the America and F-35 team.

"We were integrated into the test program to put these aircraft and all three variants through their paces," said Royal Australian air force Sgt. Justin Kelly. "It's not often that all the nations will get together and basically develop an aircraft or request an aircraft to meet certain specifications. There is now an opportunity to share a lot of things. It's very rewarding."
Much more by the USN here International Partnerships Flourish on America during DT-III
 

the road runner

Active Member
Systems Development and Demonstration phase at sea tests of F-35Bs has been completed at sea! Known as development test 3 it was a success and LM have a 5 minute video up. Probably some of the best footage of F-35B at sea that i have seen .


Love how F-35B hovers up to a ship and then just drops onto the deck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiniT7BNAn4

Enjoy :)
 
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