Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

CdnDefWriter

New Member
Feb 24 update - nationalnewswatch

I think John missed this one, also similar article in national post on February 23.

Liberals alter course on frigate replacement and rely on foreign design

OTTAWA — The Trudeau government has quietly revised the framework for the navy's planned frigate replacement program, opting for a proven foreign design over a custom domestic blueprint.

Defence contractors were given details of the proposal on Tuesday, which is subject to industry feedback and final approval, expected later this year.

Lisa Campbell, the assistant deputy minister in the acquisitions branch at Public Services and Procurement Canada, said an evaluation has determined that there are existing warship designs that would meet Canadian needs and deciding to go in that direction "was a big step for us."

Commodore Art MacDonald said the navy has also refined its requirements for the advanced warships, on which Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax is expected to begin construction some time around 2020.

In addition, the federal government will run only one competition for building both the ship and installing the sophisticated electronics, instead of doing it separately, as originally planned.

Campbell said those decisions will help not only speed up the shipbuilding process, which has been proceeding at a glacial pace, but could help control costs down the road.

When originally conceived, the Harper government estimated the cost of building 15 warships would be in the range of $26 billion, but internal documents and published reports last fall suggested the price tag could go as high as $40 billion.

Relying on a proven, off-the-shelf warship design from another country takes a lot of the uncertainty out of the planning process, Campbell said.

"We don't know the actual cost per ship yet," she said in an interview. "We're not talking about a custom build anymore. We're talking about existing designs .... and in our view that is likely to have an impact on diminishing all sorts of risks."

There would be, however, some modifications to the design to suit unique Canadian requirements. The process is not unlike the one followed when the Harper government selected a German design for the navy's soon-to-be-built joint supply ships.


It's about time they started going with a more reasonable approach.
The previous approach with Warship & Combat Management System [CMS] primes was a mismatch disaster waiting to happen.
Just imagine trying to mate Type 124 AAW systems on a Type-26 hull, you just know it's a cluster fuck waiting to happen.

And was exactly the same as the Martin gov'ts crazy Basic Vehicle [BV] & Integrated Mission Systems [IMS] approach to the Maritime Helicopter Program [MHP] before switch to one contender. Although the paper-helicopter CH-148 Cyclone that was Politically Selected for the MHP has not resulted in much better results. :rolleyes:

I'm glad the admins added me as it's nice to find a forum of like minded individuals with some knowledge of defence matters. :coffee :canada
Cheers :)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think John missed this one, also similar article in national post on February 23.

Liberals alter course on frigate replacement and rely on foreign design

OTTAWA — The Trudeau government has quietly revised the framework for the navy's planned frigate replacement program, opting for a proven foreign design over a custom domestic blueprint.

Defence contractors were given details of the proposal on Tuesday, which is subject to industry feedback and final approval, expected later this year.

Lisa Campbell, the assistant deputy minister in the acquisitions branch at Public Services and Procurement Canada, said an evaluation has determined that there are existing warship designs that would meet Canadian needs and deciding to go in that direction "was a big step for us."

Commodore Art MacDonald said the navy has also refined its requirements for the advanced warships, on which Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax is expected to begin construction some time around 2020.

In addition, the federal government will run only one competition for building both the ship and installing the sophisticated electronics, instead of doing it separately, as originally planned.

Campbell said those decisions will help not only speed up the shipbuilding process, which has been proceeding at a glacial pace, but could help control costs down the road.

When originally conceived, the Harper government estimated the cost of building 15 warships would be in the range of $26 billion, but internal documents and published reports last fall suggested the price tag could go as high as $40 billion.

Relying on a proven, off-the-shelf warship design from another country takes a lot of the uncertainty out of the planning process, Campbell said.

"We don't know the actual cost per ship yet," she said in an interview. "We're not talking about a custom build anymore. We're talking about existing designs .... and in our view that is likely to have an impact on diminishing all sorts of risks."

There would be, however, some modifications to the design to suit unique Canadian requirements. The process is not unlike the one followed when the Harper government selected a German design for the navy's soon-to-be-built joint supply ships.


It's about time they started going with a more reasonable approach.
The previous approach with Warship & Combat Management System [CMS] primes was a mismatch disaster waiting to happen.
Just imagine trying to mate Type 124 AAW systems on a Type-26 hull, you just know it's a cluster fuck waiting to happen.

And was exactly the same as the Martin gov'ts crazy Basic Vehicle [BV] & Integrated Mission Systems [IMS] approach to the Maritime Helicopter Program [MHP] before switch to one contender. Although the paper-helicopter CH-148 Cyclone that was Politically Selected for the MHP has not resulted in much better results. :rolleyes:

I'm glad the admins added me as it's nice to find a forum of like minded individuals with some knowledge of defence matters. :coffee :canada
Cheers :)
Gidday mate welcome aboard and nice post. One note please just one word out of place, so could you watch the language. Otherwise good one and nice to have another Canuck onboard. Hope to see a lot more of you around here.
 

CdnDefWriter

New Member
Roger that, wasn't sure if I could get away with that part of a complex expression, now I know, and if I knew how to edit it would say 'cluster puck'. ;)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Roger that, wasn't sure if I could get away with that part of a complex expression, now I know, and if I knew how to edit it would say 'cluster puck'. ;)
No probs mate. I'm ex navy and ex air force so have to alter the language a bit sometimes, especially around the grandkids :D. Grandson No 1 inadvertently picked up a salty phrase which he repeated at kindergarten one day in a class of 3 year olds. My daughter in law was not amused at all. Most definitely didn't have a sense of humour about it. I thought it was funny though until the wife found out then dog box again :lol2
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I think John missed this one, also similar article in national post on February 23.

Liberals alter course on frigate replacement and rely on foreign design

OTTAWA — The Trudeau government has quietly revised the framework for the navy's planned frigate replacement program, opting for a proven foreign design over a custom domestic blueprint.

Defence contractors were given details of the proposal on Tuesday, which is subject to industry feedback and final approval, expected later this year.

Lisa Campbell, the assistant deputy minister in the acquisitions branch at Public Services and Procurement Canada, said an evaluation has determined that there are existing warship designs that would meet Canadian needs and deciding to go in that direction "was a big step for us."

Commodore Art MacDonald said the navy has also refined its requirements for the advanced warships, on which Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax is expected to begin construction some time around 2020.

In addition, the federal government will run only one competition for building both the ship and installing the sophisticated electronics, instead of doing it separately, as originally planned.

Campbell said those decisions will help not only speed up the shipbuilding process, which has been proceeding at a glacial pace, but could help control costs down the road.

When originally conceived, the Harper government estimated the cost of building 15 warships would be in the range of $26 billion, but internal documents and published reports last fall suggested the price tag could go as high as $40 billion.

Relying on a proven, off-the-shelf warship design from another country takes a lot of the uncertainty out of the planning process, Campbell said.

"We don't know the actual cost per ship yet," she said in an interview. "We're not talking about a custom build anymore. We're talking about existing designs .... and in our view that is likely to have an impact on diminishing all sorts of risks."

There would be, however, some modifications to the design to suit unique Canadian requirements. The process is not unlike the one followed when the Harper government selected a German design for the navy's soon-to-be-built joint supply ships.


It's about time they started going with a more reasonable approach.
The previous approach with Warship & Combat Management System [CMS] primes was a mismatch disaster waiting to happen.
Just imagine trying to mate Type 124 AAW systems on a Type-26 hull, you just know it's a cluster fuck waiting to happen.

And was exactly the same as the Martin gov'ts crazy Basic Vehicle [BV] & Integrated Mission Systems [IMS] approach to the Maritime Helicopter Program [MHP] before switch to one contender. Although the paper-helicopter CH-148 Cyclone that was Politically Selected for the MHP has not resulted in much better results. :rolleyes:

I'm glad the admins added me as it's nice to find a forum of like minded individuals with some knowledge of defence matters. :coffee :canada
Cheers :)
The plan all along was to use an existing design modified to fit RCN needs. The two things that are apparent now is the extent of the modifications will be scaled back and the glacial progress of the program has allowed inflation to eat away at the budget which means either more money has to be allocated or the build number must be lower than 15 ships. The AOPS program went from 8 to 6 ships and may drop to 5 before long. The CSC program will suffer the same fate. At this point there is is no public info as to which frigate design will be selected although a modified Iver Huitfeldt has been rumoured likely because it would be the least expensive. Junior will like that.:(
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Inflation eroding budgets doesn't make sense when spending is paid for from current revenues (e.g. government spending), as the revenue inflates along with the price of what's being bought.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Inflation eroding budgets doesn't make sense when spending is paid for from current revenues (e.g. government spending), as the revenue inflates along with the price of what's being bought.
My understanding is treasury board gives the final approval for the money requested by DND/Public Works Canada. This amount is fixed. When a program goes over budget for whatever reason the choices are scale it back or go to the pollies for more money via the Treasury board. Which way to go will depend on the political wind direction of the moment (usually south for Liberal pollies).:(
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
I was in a meeting with BAe last week, they are still confident about selling Type 26 abroad, Canada was one of the markets they are still keen on, the project manager I meet illuded to an about change by the Canadian govt when I said I thought Canada wasn't interested. I guess the above announcement was that about change.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I was in a meeting with BAe last week, they are still confident about selling Type 26 abroad, Canada was one of the markets they are still keen on, the project manager I meet illuded to an about change by the Canadian govt when I said I thought Canada wasn't interested. I guess the above announcement was that about change.

A former UK admiral with naval procurement experience has been hired for a consulting position in the CSC program. The Type 26 design was rejected early on for the CSC. I think the reason was the design at the time was not finalized but thanks to our slow procurement system perhaps the Type 26 will get a second look. Having a former British admiral involved should help the Type 26 to be more favourably looked upon.
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...e-canada-on-shipbuilding-procurement-strategy
 
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CdnDefWriter

New Member
March 10 - nationalnewswatch

Davie shipyard drops unsolicited bid on Liberals to build icebreakers
CPT111327913.jpg - The Canadian Press - CP
OTTAWA — An unsolicited bid — potentially worth up to $1 billion — to provide icebreakers and multi-purpose ships for the coast guard was submitted to the Trudeau government late last month, The Canadian Press has learned.

The proposal by Quebec-based Chantier Davie Canada Inc. has the potential to undercut one pillar of the national shipbuilding strategy, which delegates the construction of civilian ships to Vancouver's Seaspan shipyard.

In a presentation to Public Services and Procurement Canada, Davie is partially reviving a pitch made to the former Conservative government in 2013, where it offered to a construct a Polar Class 3 icebreaker and deliver it in 18 months.

The latest bid offers not only that, but three smaller so-called River-class icebreakers and two multi-purpose ships, which could be used for scientific research, border patrol of search and rescue.

The pitch involves converting three different types of vessels which Davie already has under construction — or can be obtained on the international market "at highly affordable prices."

Some of the ships were being built for the offshore oil and gas sector, but the collapse in energy prices has led to their cancellation.

"This is a fast-track solution providing enhanced capabilities at a fraction of the newbuilding (sic) price," said the proposal.

Davie says its ships can be delivered at 60 per cent of the cost of the current program with Seaspan and gives the federal government the option of either buying or leasing the vessels.

The prices are blacked out from a copy of the Feb. 24 cover letter to Public Services and Procurement Minister Judy Foote, which was obtained by The Canadian Press. But officials, speaking on background because they're not authorized to talk to the media, say the pitch adds up to at least $1 billion, depending on the options chosen.

Alex Vicefield, CEO of Davie's parent company, said the pitch "has been very well received," but would not go into detail.

Public services and procurement spokesman Pierre-Alain Bujold would not confirm receipt of the proposal but did say the government has not issued a request for proposals for icebreakers and reaffirmed the department's commitment to the overall shipbuilding program.

Vicefield said there is a business opportunity but also an important public policy issue at stake.

"We come from the international marine industry where we have to be innovative and lean to compete," he said Wednesday.

"When we see a situation which is clearly facing all kinds of problems and we have solutions which can save our client many hundreds of millions of dollars and receive an even better product faster, it would not be in anyone's interest to hold back."

Davie used a similar approach to the federal government when it pitched — and won — a multimillion-dollar contract to provide the navy with a temporary supply ship. The former Harper government had to amend cabinet rules in order to allow the sole-sourced contract to go through.

Both Seaspan and Halifax-based Irving Shipyards, the other company in the national shipbuilding program, protested and the Liberals, shortly after being elected last fall, temporarily put the plan on hold. They relented and Davie has already begun the modifications for the leased ship.

Jonathan Whitworth, the CEO of Seaspan, said the new bid is an attempt to undermine the shipbuilding program, where the fundamental premise was to establish only two go-to shipyards in the country — one for combat, the other for civilian vessels.

"The worst thing we could do is to stop, alter or otherwise change the (National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy) before it's actually really gotten underway," he said in an interview Wednesday.

One of the biggest criticisms of the program, which was launched in 2011, is that it has yet to produce a single ship, something the Davie proposal plays on in its presentation by referencing the age of the current decades-old fleet.

"What has become increasingly evident is that it would be considerably more cost-effective and considerably better for the men and women of the Canadian Coast Guard to fully replace these over-aged vessels," said the presentation.

Whitworth would not discuss the potential legal ramifications of the Liberals running with the Davie proposal. But he said if the federal government was looking for stop-gap ships until Seaspan delivered, then it should allow an open competition among all the shipyards in Canada rather than a "sole-source gift" as the previous government did with the navy supply ship.



A Polar Class 3 Icebreaker - never enough larger size icebreakers, although 76mm armed (ex-DDG Super Rapids) Polar 1 / 2 would be preferred as allows year round / nearly yr round northern access - with bit of an enforcement stick, would be useful.
Plus an Ice-reinforced Submarine Rescue ship capable of DSRV carriage, with a decent speed allowing prompt response, would also be useful.
Possibly also an ice-reinforced AOPS / Northern Resupply vessel if the partially-built vessels allow conversion.
Any other commercial conversion would be wasteful and potentially siphon Coast Guard / RCN future funding, not to mention waste PYs to man them.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A former UK admiral with naval procurement experience has been hired for a consulting position in the CSC program. The Type 26 design was rejected early on for the CSC. I think the reason was the design at the time was not finalized but thanks to our slow procurement system perhaps the Type 26 will get a second look. Having a former British admiral involved should help the Type 26 to be more favourably looked upon.
Retired Royal Navy rear admiral hired to advise Canada on shipbuilding | Ottawa Citizen
won't be Type 26 - it'll need to be Type 31
 

swerve

Super Moderator
My understanding is treasury board gives the final approval for the money requested by DND/Public Works Canada. This amount is fixed. When a program goes over budget for whatever reason the choices are scale it back or go to the pollies for more money via the Treasury board. Which way to go will depend on the political wind direction of the moment (usually south for Liberal pollies).:(
So it's a self-inflicted problem.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
In the name of national job protection (yet FREMM wasn't rejected . . . . ), but now the favour has turned towards a foreign design then it probably is at least being considered.
I don't really understand why the Type 26 was rejected so early on. I think at the time the Type 26 was considered not to be mature enough. A modified foreign design with input from Canadian designers was always the plan but know reality has suck in and the design modifications have to be scaled back. I would think that most recent 6000-7000 ton designs are all under consideration.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
won't be Type 26 - it'll need to be Type 31
A quick search seems to indicate that the Type 26 was to have 13 ships which was then cut to 8. Are these 8 cancelled now and the build will be for 13 Type 31s? It doesn't appear the Type 31 design is firmed up yet. If the Type 26 design was finalized then it could still be a contender for the CSC. Some info seems to indicate the 31 will be a smaller frigate than the 26. Given the new CSC will see a minimum of 35 years service, a larger design allows for better upgrade potential and enhanced service life assuming no radical future developments (other than railguns and lasers).
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
[Any other commercial conversion would be wasteful and potentially siphon Coast Guard / RCN future funding, not to mention waste PYs to man them.
Davie is once again in crisis. With the oil and gas industry's cutbacks due to low prices, the speciality ships Davie was building for them are no longer in demand. Their hail-Mary order for the commercial ship conversion to AOR for the RCN might be a stop-gap but if the Spanish and Chilean navies can provide AOR on a lease basis like they are doing now for the next 5 years until the Berlins arrive, it would be a less expensive solution.

Now that junior and his fellow Quebec minions are back in power, Davie sees an opportunity to feed off the public trough once again. They performed horribly on their share of the Halifax project. When the Nation Ship Building Program was created they were in bankruptcy which is why SeaSpan and Irving are the two yards selected. I see no reason whatsoever why a shipyard in the province that continually threatens to separate from Canada should EVER be allowed to build ships for the RCN!:mad3
 

swerve

Super Moderator
A quick search seems to indicate that the Type 26 was to have 13 ships which was then cut to 8. Are these 8 cancelled now and the build will be for 13 Type 31s?
No. Hundreds of millions of pounds has recently been budgeted for Type 26. No money has been budgeted for Type 31 at all. Type 26 is going ahead: eight ships with top-class ASW capabilities & various other stuff, such as silos for land-attack missiles (or anything else that might fit), in a hull capable of taking a lot of other stuff.

Type 31 is just an idea so far. It hasn't even been defined beyond the vague words in the SDSR.
 
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