catchall thread for submarine news, developments
Submarine news
- Thread starter gf0012-aust
- Start date
- Status
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #2
Soryu Class
Number 7 launched
MHI Delivers "Jinryu" Japan's 7th Soryu-Class Submarine, at the MHI Kobe Shipyard & Machinery Works
Number 7 launched
MHI Delivers "Jinryu" Japan's 7th Soryu-Class Submarine, at the MHI Kobe Shipyard & Machinery Works
Keel laying to commissioning in a touch over 4 years, that's pretty impressive. They obviously have two subs underway in MHI and Kawasaki at any one time. Let's hope we can match the schedule and bring one out every two years just as we did with Collins.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #4
If I was Japanese I'd be reinforcing the fact that these are real subs - not paper propositions, and then trotting out japanese sub availability rates against the competitors
and if some halfwit argues the there is a danger in translating japanese specs, then they should start pointing all of the major energy and platform builds they've done with locals outside of japan
I'm just hoping that political machinations are kicked to the sidelines and these things are judged on merit - because from a capability perspective they are a golden mile ahead of the other paper propositions.
the risk matrix will be interesting
I've got a few USN submariner colleagues who are pretty clear on what they'd get if they were in the same boat (no pun intended)
There are people who make that argument? Seriously?
I mean, it's not like Mitsubishi and Kawasaki have no business dealings outside of Japan and thus can't figure out translation...
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6
unfortunately its an indicator of how frantic some of the arguments are run by some of their competitots australian partners - and also by some idiotic politicians who have been fed the same garbage by companies promising to build boats in their states.There are people who make that argument? Seriously?
I mean, it's not like Mitsubishi and Kawasaki have no business dealings outside of Japan and thus can't figure out translation...
(australias version of "bought" and "dim wittted" congressmen/women)
'tis sad but true
I would love to be sitting in a P3 working the consoles when the Soryu class, Hakuryu exercises with the RAN and RAAF in the East Aust. Exercise Areas next month. Apparently she will be accompanied by 2 Destroyers.
If this doesn't convince the doubters, nothing will provided off course that they as good as we 're told.
I'd give my left nit to be on board the ships or planes to see the results and be able to compare with Collins.
If this doesn't convince the doubters, nothing will provided off course that they as good as we 're told.
I'd give my left nit to be on board the ships or planes to see the results and be able to compare with Collins.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #8
ditto
I imagine there will be some PLAN subs in the region as well. They always sniff around at RIMPAC and Tal Saber
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Something I came across suggested that the Royal Norwegian Navy was looking to start a project to replace their Ula-class submarines. While the historical sub purchases appear to be like those of the Swedes, suitable to operations in shallow, cold waters like in the Baltic I was wondering if people thought it might be more advisable for Norway to get conventional subs which could operate in deep, Arctic Ocean waters.
Given the potential opening of sea lanes through the Arctic as a result of ice melt and rising sea levels, I am wondering whether Norway should get another sub which can lurk around Norway, or be sent to hunt/sanitize an area for hostile subs.
Given the potential opening of sea lanes through the Arctic as a result of ice melt and rising sea levels, I am wondering whether Norway should get another sub which can lurk around Norway, or be sent to hunt/sanitize an area for hostile subs.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #10
Its going to be interesting in that region as all of the Skandinavians, UK, Canada etc are seeing more and more russian sub patrols around the arctic and northern waters....
the new claims based on redrawing the continental shelves due to receding ice makes for interesting times. trawling under the ice really becomes the province of nukes (persistence and structural engineering issues)
it really starts to define what subs should be built. Am not sure grey and green water subs are the right choice - unless your country becomes the ultimate isolationist, but that injects some other political realities which won't serve that nation well.....
Definitely. Good job we're finally picking up some P-8s.
And IIRC that will be the last of the AIP Soryu's as well ? so should be a few Li-ion in the water by the time we have our first in the water
Not sure if it was you GF or read somewhere else that the Soryu proposal for Aust included a 6-8m plug for extra fuel and batteries ?Cheers
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
One of the things I would be interested in knowing, is what is the relative energy density of the diesel fuel vs. Li-Ion batteries.And IIRC that will be the last of the AIP Soryu's as well ? so should be a few Li-ion in the water by the time we have our first in the water
Cheers
If it is still significantly canted towards the diesel fuel, then it might still make more sense for additional fuel and generation capacity, instead of additional storage capacity. I suppose it also depends on the trade off balances, greater duration between recharge/indiscretion periods with a greater duration for each indiscretion, or more frequent recharge/indiscretions, with a shorter duration.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Although nuclear subs are superior for Arctic operations and I would have liked to see Canada select Virginia class subs to replace the Victoria class, the political will to do is somewhat lacking (although not as anti-nuke as OZ IMO) and some kind of joint US/Canada manufacture would be problematic given the US replacement requirements as per the link enclosed. With the assumed Arctic warming, a long range diesel electric seems to be a reasonable future option for Canada. It would be nice if Canada made some overtures to future involvement in the Australian/Japanese Soryu hybrid. I'm not holding my breath on this.
Not Enough Subs So Buy More: Rep. Forbes « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
Not Enough Subs So Buy More: Rep. Forbes « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Diesel is hard to beat. Great advances in Li-ion battery technology have been occurring and I would think they are now an acceptable alternative to chemical AIP systems and safer as well. Isn't the new Soryu to forego the Stirling AIP in favour of high performance Li-ion battery banks?
We've actually had for more issue translating French data than anyone else's. Success based on Durance was a classic example and the entire blame was dumped on Codoc resulting in the cancellation / non order of a much needed, easily justified second AOR that would have proceeded far more "success"fullyThere are people who make that argument? Seriously?
I mean, it's not like Mitsubishi and Kawasaki have no business dealings outside of Japan and thus can't figure out translation...
than the first as Codoc had sorted all the issues by then. What happened then is happening again now people, sometimes decision makers with no or limited technical knowledge for some reason rate Euro equipment over US or Asian, even though the Euros, with the exception of some of the Brits and Germans, have a far worse record of technology transfer and support, across various types of industry, of overseas contracts than US or Japan.I confess to being unimpressed with the attitudes and culture at MMC but then they were usually overruled by Mitsubishi Corporation who have a pretty good handle on things, especially after MMC were caught falsifying certification reports. It was mea culpa, they got on with it and fixed things, as did Toyota with their unintended accelerations (I suspect it was more driver error to be honest). my experience of many Euro operators is the attitude starts with "there is no problem", then "you can't prove there is a problem", to "ok you can but its not what it seems, its actually the victims fault", and "ok we have sacked the powerless underling we have chosen to blame and our CEO has taken a very attractive golden hand shake" with no real effort put into fixing things or even providing others with the data they need to fix them themselves.
The experience I base this on is primarily from automotive and defence but also general hi-tech manufacturing. While I have had some pretty spectacularly bad experiences with some Asian products and have encountered arrogance bordering on dismissive bigotry from some Japanese it had nothing on the level of dismissive contempt from many European suppliers and designers. Australian technicians reported problems with a factory acceptance text (the product did not conform to requirements and was not fit for purpose) and the supplier concerned complained about the techs and refused to have them back on sight. near enough is good enough is meant to be an Australian attitude but I can assure you it is very prevalent in the European naval supply chain, if not industry in general.
Though Japan has never exported defence tech before I anticipate, based on my experiences in other industries, that they will do a much than a lot of there continental competition.
Well a great deal of the blame can be placed directly to Codock. Success took over 11 years to build and was 4 times over budget, there was no money left and there was no way the govt was going to repeat the effort with another hull. That government owned facility was atrociously inefficient. The record with the Battles, the Anzacs, the Q conversions and the Darings, they all speak for themselves at both dockyards.We've actually had for more issue translating French data than anyone else's. Success based on Durance was a classic example and the entire blame was dumped on Codoc resulting in the cancellation / non order of a much needed, easily justified second AOR that would have proceeded far more "success"fully
I have no doubt the French documentation contributed to Success' failure but they were by no means the major mess.
I had the misfortune to do refits both there and at Williamstown when they were government owned, late, half completed, poor workmanship. It took the crew all the way to the next refit to sort the mess. Mind you that's when engineers were trained and capable. They also had an excellent FMU Fleet Maintenance Unit, mostly based on Stalwart, to help them
Last edited:
Soryu can fire sub harpoon which is a requirement for SEA1000.
There has been some talk of a future TLAM capability but I can't remember seeing any confirmation of that.
Can anyone add to that?
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
The only weapon system mentioned in the DWP was the MK 48 ADCAP, no mention at all of Land attack or even a AShM so not quite sure what the thinking is. Of course that doesn't rule out those capabilites and sooner or later the USN will be looking at replacements, especially for the Harpoon with a replacement for the Harpoons on surface combatants on the horizon.
- Status