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ASSAIL

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The discussion re T45 propulsion problems has occupied a variety of posts so far but the following link clarifies the problem and the solution required.
As mentioned the problem lies with the turbine intercooler units that fail when loads are high which causes excessive load to fall on the DGs and naturally they trip.
The remediation plan is to exchange the DGs for bigger ones which requires large opening to be cut to facilitate the exchange. this has been funded to the tune of approx. 1Billion GBP and will occur during normal refits although the refits will be extended.

Putting the Type 45 propulsion problems in perspective | Save the Royal Navy
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
ASSAIL said:
The discussion re T45 propulsion problems has occupied a variety of posts so far but the following link clarifies the problem and the solution required.
As mentioned the problem lies with the turbine intercooler units that fail when loads are high which causes excessive load to fall on the DGs and naturally they trip.
The remediation plan is to exchange the DGs for bigger ones which requires large opening to be cut to facilitate the exchange. this has been funded to the tune of approx. 1Billion GBP and will occur during normal refits although the refits will be extended.

Putting the Type 45 propulsion problems in perspective | Save the Royal Navy
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It is strange that both turbines fail together. This seems to imply that the turbines must somehow be integrated into the same intercooler recuperation system.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The RN has decided to that its new GP frigate will be known as the Type 31. No other details have been released with some details possibly being known when the new shipbuilding strategy is released later this year. The story mentions hull options including a cut down variant of the Type 26 and foreign hulls. Whether the Type 31 evenuates remains to be seen.
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
ngatimozart said:
The RN has decided to that its new GP frigate will be known as the Type 31. No other details have been released with some details possibly being known when the new shipbuilding strategy is released later this year. The story mentions hull options including a cut down variant of the Type 26 and foreign hulls. Whether the Type 31 evenuates remains to be seen.
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I'm still scratching my head to understand the UK Government decision on this (maybe I'm stupid or something???) and don't all say yes!!!

I don't understand why you wouldn't take advantage of producing 13 very similar hulls and all the cost benefits associated with a larger production run (especially when the UK Government says it is still committed to a fleet of 13 Frigates too).

At the very least, if saving money is the problem (or objective), just have those other 5 hulls 'fitted for and not with' for example.

If they went down that path, that's not to say into the future, funds permitted, that you couldn't put further investment in those more basic GP hulls.

Anyway, still scratching my head!!
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
John Newman said:
I'm still scratching my head to understand the UK Government decision on this (maybe I'm stupid or something???) and don't all say yes!!!
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Coming from a Kiwi you are not.
I don't understand why you wouldn't take advantage of producing 13 very similar hull and all the cost benefits associated with a larger production run (especially when the UK Government says it is still committed to a fleet of 13 Frigates too).

At the very least, if saving money is the problem (or objective), just have those other 5 hulls 'fitted for and now with' for example.

If they went down that path, that's not to say into the future, funds permitted, that you couldn't put further investment in those more basic GP hulls.

Anyway, still scratching my head!!
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Me too. Quite can't figure it out. Logically and rationality you would think that a GP variant of the Type 26 hull would be the most advantageous. The hull itself will be a known quantity and as you say the benefits will flow on from a larger production run. Mind you we are talking about pommy pollies and Whitehall :roll where even the angels fear to tread because of the bureaucracy :D
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
ngatimozart said:
Coming from a Kiwi you are not.

Me too. Quite can't figure it out. Logically and rationality you would think that a GP variant of the Type 26 hull would be the most advantageous. The hull itself will be a known quantity and as you say the benefits will flow on from a larger production run. Mind you we are talking about pommy pollies and Whitehall :roll where even the angels fear to tread because of the bureaucracy :D
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NG, thanks mate!!

That makes us both stupid (or not!!), I think the 'not'.

You really have to wonder about the thinking behind this (politics and all too), I can understand wanting to reduce costs because of budget constraints, etc, or whatever deep dark secrets are behind the reduction.

But, still you would think that a run of 13 of 'anything' would be cheaper than a run of 8 + 5 of something different. I don't know, maybe we are both missing something?

At one stage I thought the T26 would be in the running for the Anzac replacement (not a guarantee, but a contender), but with the moving forward of the replacement of the Anzacs (starting to cut steel in 2020) and the first of (now 8 instead of 13) T26 not hitting the water till after that date, well the chances of an export version is certainly lessened.

Maybe our respective Canadian cousins might look at the T26 or even the T31??
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
John Newman said:
NG, thanks mate!!

That makes us both stupid (or not!!), I think the 'not'.

You really have to wonder about the thinking behind this (politics and all too), I can understand wanting to reduce costs because of budget constraints, etc, or whatever deep dark secrets are behind the reduction.

But, still you would think that a run of 13 of 'anything' would be cheaper than a run of 8 + 5 of something different. I don't know, maybe we are both missing something?

At one stage I thought the T26 would be in the running for the Anzac replacement (not a guarantee, but a contender), but with the moving forward of the replacement of the Anzacs (starting to cut steel in 2020) and the first of (now 8 instead of 13) T26 not hitting the water till after that date, well the chances of an export version is certainly lessened.

Maybe our respective Canadian cousins might look at the T26 or even the T31??
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Yes I agree and I think it may put the kibosh on the RNZN going that way as well because of the time issues and possible uncertainties for the Type 31. TBH if they go down the track of not using an unmodified basic hull design of the Type 26 for the Type 31, then they might prove to be too expensive.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
John Newman said:
NG, thanks mate!!

That makes us both stupid (or not!!), I think the 'not'.

You really have to wonder about the thinking behind this (politics and all too), I can understand wanting to reduce costs because of budget constraints, etc, or whatever deep dark secrets are behind the reduction.

But, still you would think that a run of 13 of 'anything' would be cheaper than a run of 8 + 5 of something different. I don't know, maybe we are both missing something?

At one stage I thought the T26 would be in the running for the Anzac replacement (not a guarantee, but a contender), but with the moving forward of the replacement of the Anzacs (starting to cut steel in 2020) and the first of (now 8 instead of 13) T26 not hitting the water till after that date, well the chances of an export version is certainly lessened.

Maybe our respective Canadian cousins might look at the T26 or even the T31??
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The RCN rejected involvement in the Type 26 program so I doubt they would have interest in the Type 31. Given the glacial pace of the CSC there is certainly time for consideration. As Odense is part of the design team, some kind of modified Iver Huitfeldt is likely. A 6000-7000 ton ship is what is needed.
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
When they publish the national shipbuilding strategy later this year, we'll know the details (or at least more of them). I'd wait for that to come out before drawing out the pitchforks just yet.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
RobWilliams said:
When they publish the national shipbuilding strategy later this year, we'll know the details (or at least more of them). I'd wait for that to come out before drawing out the pitchforks just yet.
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Not drawing pitchforks Rob, we are just somewhat bamboozled by the decision made in the SDSR. It does have ramifications for possible export opportunities of both the Type 26 and Type 31 frigates to, say the RAN and the RNZN because of price, design maturity and timelines. That's all.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
John Newman said:
But, still you would think that a run of 13 of 'anything' would be cheaper than a run of 8 + 5 of something different.
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No, because the hull design costs of a ship are relatively small compared to the production cost. It's not like aircraft, or armoured vehicles. Most of what goes in that hull will almost certainly be OTS. Weapons & sensors, certainly. Propulsion will be tailored to the ship but consist mostly of OTS components. You don't have to save a huge percentage on the hull & propulsion (cheaper because less is needed for a smaller ship) to break even, & you should save on running costs.

I think the expensive things to develop are high-end combat systems with radars, missiles, etc. integrated.
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
ngatimozart said:
Not drawing pitchforks Rob, we are just somewhat bamboozled by the decision made in the SDSR. It does have ramifications for possible export opportunities of both the Type 26 and Type 31 frigates to, say the RAN and the RNZN because of price, design maturity and timelines. That's all.
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There wasn't that much of a realistic possibility in exports before the announcement either, globally something along the scale of Type 31 is going to be more exportable than what Type 26 became to be.

Brazil and Colombia as an example are a market for 13 frigates.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
RobWilliams said:
There wasn't that much of a realistic possibility in exports before the announcement either, globally something along the scale of Type 31 is going to be more exportable than what Type 26 became to be.

Brazil and Colombia as an example are a market for 13 frigates.
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As France has a foot in the door with their sub program I would think France's FREMM has a leg up on frigates for Brazil.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
IIRC before everything went quiet when the Brazilian economy went tits up, there was talk that the Italian FREMM was preferred to the French. Dunno if that was accurate, though. Since then the Italian PPA has emerged, & the French have cut back their FREMM buy even further in favour of something smaller.

All to play for, I'd say. Everybody has a foot in the door. France & the UK have both sold secondhand (in the UK's case including new but pre-owned) ships, British missiles have been selected for new Brazilian-built corvettes, French submarines are building to add to the German submarines in service, & the older frigates in service got Italian missiles & radars in a mid-life update.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
ngatimozart said:
Not drawing pitchforks Rob, we are just somewhat bamboozled by the decision made in the SDSR. It does have ramifications for possible export opportunities of both the Type 26 and Type 31 frigates to, say the RAN and the RNZN because of price, design maturity and timelines. That's all.
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Depending on the build schedule and cost factor and if the type 31 is based on a long endurance capable design and not a glorified OPV, I think it would have a chance for NZ, as from memory RNZN's Anzacs will be replaced around 2030 but depending on the materiel state of the ships and the need to replace a fair amount of kit between now and the mid 2030 replacement a Type 31 could very well be on the cards as a way to reduce costs or spread the cost further.

But I wonder of the ramifications of dropping the ASW capability that would come with Type 31, as a majority indications are that the RAN is looking at a 7000T vessel to take into account future upgrade's
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It is a shame that the UK, Australia, and NZ can't get on the same page for a frigate replacement. I would like to see my country involved as well but given our horrible procurement record and the the fool we now have in charge, nobody in their right mind should be considering Canadian involvement.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
John Fedup said:
It is a shame that the UK, Australia, and NZ can't get on the same page for a frigate replacement. I would like to see my country involved as well but given our horrible procurement record and the the fool we now have in charge, nobody in their right mind should be considering Canadian involvement.
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I think that was the original intension of Type 26 of becoming the Commonwealth Frigate, I know we had some people on the inside of the planning program not sure of the Kiwis or Canadians tho
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
t68 said:
Depending on the build schedule and cost factor and if the type 31 is based on a long endurance capable design and not a glorified OPV, I think it would have a chance for NZ, as from memory RNZN's Anzacs will be replaced around 2030 but depending on the materiel state of the ships and the need to replace a fair amount of kit between now and the mid 2030 replacement a Type 31 could very well be on the cards as a way to reduce costs or spread the cost further.

But I wonder of the ramifications of dropping the ASW capability that would come with Type 31, as a majority indications are that the RAN is looking at a 7000T vessel to take into account future upgrade's
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Depends on if they envisage those ships supporting a UK CVBG, in that case they'd need solid endurance and speed requirements. I'd imagine that would be the case considering the UK is buying 3 OPVs and just ordered 2 more so in terms of patrol tasks the RN should hopefully be well catered for.
 
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