New Chinese 5th Generatio Aircraft

colay · Nov 25, 2012

A lengthy article on the J-15, analyzing it's capabilities and limitations and the possible roles it may perform in a STOBAR environment.

http://www.chinasignpost.com/2011/0...improve-china’s-maritime-air-warfare-ability/

As currently configured and supported, the J-15 is no “great leap forward,” but is nevertheless triggering concern among regional nations because it indicates rapid improvement in Chinese naval aviation and suggests Chinese determination to supplement current anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) approaches by developing some form of regional blue water presence beyond the First Island Chain. .. The J-15’s initial role will be linked to, and limited by, its first operational platform: a “starter carrier” to project a bit of power, confer prestige on a rising great power, and master basic procedures.

AUS-man · Nov 26, 2012

Wall83 said:
Yeah. But still its impressive. They probably start constructing more carriers in a few years.

Don't they already have started?

It would also take them years of training and use (and more carriers) to rival the skill and number of the US carriers. The US are experts in carrier warfare, they showed that in the second world war and have continued that doctrine into the 21st century

Atasas · Nov 26, 2012

........

Haavarla · Nov 26, 2012

That my friend is not ANY Engineer.. the late Luo Yang is the equivelent to China Aviation development as M.P. Simonov was to Russian Aviation History.

He died only 51 years old..
May Luo Yang RIP.

Pathfinder-X · Nov 26, 2012

Bonza said:
Yes, which was an unfinished prototype of the SU-33. Whether you want to split hairs about it or not is your business.

Since J-15 is from a TK-10 prototype, that would make it a parallel development to Su-33, not a copy. You wouldn't call your younger siblings a copy of you would it?

Pathfinder-X · Nov 26, 2012

Systems Adict said:
Sure is amazing what Russian technology can do.......

After all the carrier WAS Russian & the J-17 is based on a Sukhoi SU-30 ??

SA

Ukraine sold an empty hull to China devoid of any sub-systems. The French even sent inspectors to make sure proper demolition was done prior to the sale of the ship. What exactly is Russian about the ship besides the hull?

And do you mean J-15 developed from a TK-10 prototype?

P.S. The hull was built for USSR in Ukraine.

Bonza · Nov 26, 2012

Pathfinder-X said:
Since J-15 is from a TK-10 prototype, that would make it a parallel development to Su-33, not a copy. You wouldn't call your younger siblings a copy of you would it?

I would not, but I don't find the analogy entirely applicable. It would surprise me greatly if the J-15 was developed without at least some data from the SU-33.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to have a go at China's capacity for aircraft design, in fact I think it's been amply demonstrated in the J-10, JF-17, and the more recent LO aircraft designs.

Pathfinder-X · Nov 26, 2012

Bonza said:
I would not, but I don't find the analogy entirely applicable. It would surprise me greatly if the J-15 was developed without at least some data from the SU-33.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to have a go at China's capacity for aircraft design, in fact I think it's been amply demonstrated in the J-10, JF-17, and the more recent LO aircraft designs.

Prior to J-15, China has already developed J-11A and J-11B. Furthermore it has been operating Flanker family of aircrafts since 1992. That's plenty of years to build your expertise upon. J-15 is definitely a relative of Su-33, sharing a common ancestory in the form of T-10K-3, though calling it a Su-33 clone would be a misuse of the term. Ukraine was by far the biggest foreign contributor to the Chinese aircraft carrier and its sub-programs.

Bonza · Nov 27, 2012

Pathfinder-X said:
Prior to J-15, China has already developed J-11A and J-11B. Furthermore it has been operating Flanker family of aircrafts since 1992. That's plenty of years to build your expertise upon. J-15 is definitely a relative of Su-33, sharing a common ancestory in the form of T-10K-3, though calling it a Su-33 clone would be a misuse of the term. Ukraine was by far the biggest foreign contributor to the Chinese aircraft carrier and its sub-programs.

Good point regarding the years of experience they already had with the platform. To be honest I had overlooked that.

keithktam · Dec 29, 2012

is this a ch;inese copy of the Apoche??

as the title said: please see attachment!!

edit: sorry for the typo, i was typing in the dark...

keithktam · Dec 29, 2012

is chinese developing their own stealth from the F 117A wreckage??

came across this article,, never mind the language:

DSC_0528: thats one of the wreckage at the museum, together with the other piece also at a museum, only contribute 1 tenth of the total wreckage, which doesn't make sense according to socialist countries norm...

DSC_0531: according to the description next to the image, this should be the infra red sensor the F 117A was using

DSC_0530: supposedly the satellite image at "Luoyang" military airport, they have a aerospace defense contractor there

DSC_0529: just a snap shot of the article, if you care...

as I mentioned, only 1 tenth remains at the museum, and since each plate on the F 117 is slightly different with each other, China needs as much of the wreckage as possible in order to study and reverse engineer it so it makes sense, and according to the article, when the China official was asked about this, he just smiled in return...

and how much different in terms of material composite is the F 117 differ from B2?? and Iran claims that they can make copies of the crashed drone, which one was crashed back there, was it the latest one that looks like B2's son with stealth capability?? doesn't these news alarming?? how easy can a foreign to duplicate highly secret US military technology?

i am all here for the academic, please no rude comments and most of all BS, thank you!!

Air Force Brat · Dec 29, 2012

keithktam said:
came across this article,, never mind the language:

DSC_0528: thats one of the wreckage at the museum, together with the other piece also at a museum, only contribute 1 tenth of the total wreckage, which doesn't make sense according to socialist countries norm...

DSC_0531: according to the description next to the image, this should be the infra red sensor the F 117A was using

DSC_0530: supposedly the satellite image at "Luoyang" military airport, they have a aerospace defense contractor there

DSC_0529: just a snap shot of the article, if you care...

as I mentioned, only 1 tenth remains at the museum, and since each plate on the F 117 is slightly different with each other, China needs as much of the wreckage as possible in order to study and reverse engineer it so it makes sense, and according to the article, when the China official was asked about this, he just smiled in return...

and how much different in terms of material composite is the F 117 differ from B2?? and Iran claims that they can make copies of the crashed drone, which one was crashed back there, was it the latest one that looks like B2's son with stealth capability?? doesn't these news alarming?? how easy can a foreign to duplicate highly secret US military technology?

i am all here for the academic, please no rude comments and most of all BS, thank you!!

No, the Chinese are far beyond picking up the pieces stage, their J-20 had its first flight two years ago, and the F-60/J-31 had its first flight this fall. Both aircraft use stealth shaping and will likely be in the F-35 class of low observable technology. Chinese and Russian military weapons share a great deal of DNA, the Chinese often refining and attempting to slick up the crude stuff of the past, the latest Chinese equipment is very slick and rivals "Western" developement. Now back to your question, do they attempt to glean everything they can, absolutely, the J-20 is a very uniquely Chinese airframe, to my mind a blending of the F-22 forward fuselage with the aft delta/canard technology of the Mig 1.42/1.44 that the Russians abandoned in favor of the T-50/PAK FA. The J-20 appears to have done fairly well in its initial flight testing at Chengdu, but both prototypes have now been flown to Ziang, where security is much tighter and we don't see videos or even still pictures. The two flying prototypes are 2001 and 2002, I expect 2003 to be rolled out sometime after the Chinese New Year at Chengdu?

The J-20 is a very "smart aeroplane", attempting to make up for the difficulty in powerplant developement by incorporating a "very sophisticated FBW, as I stated the J-20 performed several "aileron rolls" on video and they are very well harmonized and clean on entry, execution, and roll out. Dr Song, the Chinese aerodynamic "Guru" was responsible for much of the design and execution of the J-20, he spent time studying in Russia and is a very bright guy. Cheers AFB

There is J-20 thread here on Defense Talk, and also our sister forum Sino Defense, both excellent forums with very little BS.

ADMk2 · Dec 29, 2012

Air Force Brat said:
Both aircraft use stealth shaping and will likely be in the F-35 class of low observable technology.

I find that statement highly dubious, given the clearly lagging materials science the Chinese are struggling with (as evidenced by their apparent difficulties in creating advanced indigneous turbofan engine technology).

The US has poured billions into these fields and decades of research. Copying a bit of shaping from internet photos and painting them the same colour, is a vastly different matter to designing "F-35 class" low observable technology.

If a bit of shaping is all it took, every decent aircraft modeller in the world would be creating low observable technology...

If they try sufficiently for long enough, they may get there in the end. They are still a LONG way from it at yet, IMHO.

When they start creating reliable and advanced mass production fighter engines, then we'll start to see that their fighter technology levels are truly advancing, so far they haven't reached it yet.

ADMk2 · Dec 29, 2012

Mod edit:

Thread clean-up...

Recent Chinese Air Force threads merged. We don't need a bunch of different threads to discuss the same stuff guys...

Please post all discussions on modern Chinese Airpower here from now on.

Thanks,

AD.

keithktam · Dec 30, 2012

Air Force Brat said:
No, the Chinese are far beyond picking up the pieces stage, their J-20 had its first flight two years ago, and the F-60/J-31 had its first flight this fall. Both aircraft use stealth shaping and will likely be in the F-35 class of low observable technology. Chinese and Russian military weapons share a great deal of DNA, the Chinese often refining and attempting to slick up the crude stuff of the past, the latest Chinese equipment is very slick and rivals "Western" developement. Now back to your question, do they attempt to glean everything they can, absolutely, the J-20 is a very uniquely Chinese airframe, to my mind a blending of the F-22 forward fuselage with the aft delta/canard technology of the Mig 1.42/1.44 that the Russians abandoned in favor of the T-50/PAK FA. The J-20 appears to have done fairly well in its initial flight testing at Chengdu, but both prototypes have now been flown to Ziang, where security is much tighter and we don't see videos or even still pictures. The two flying prototypes are 2001 and 2002, I expect 2003 to be rolled out sometime after the Chinese New Year at Chengdu?

The J-20 is a very "smart aeroplane", attempting to make up for the difficulty in powerplant developement by incorporating a "very sophisticated FBW, as I stated the J-20 performed several "aileron rolls" on video and they are very well harmonized and clean on entry, execution, and roll out. Dr Song, the Chinese aerodynamic "Guru" was responsible for much of the design and execution of the J-20, he spent time studying in Russia and is a very bright guy. Cheers AFB

There is J-20 thread here on Defense Talk, and also our sister forum Sino Defense, both excellent forums with very little BS.

when i first saw the J20, I found that kinda hilarious, cause it has a F22 head and a MiG bottom, imagine a creature with a lizard head and chicken feet... well that could mean that the Chinese is gathering any and every thing they can and study just as much

Haavarla · Dec 30, 2012

It doesn't really matter what the J-20 look like. All that matter is its capabilities and the impact of the Asia Air power balance.

I think the J-20 will in time be just tha PLAAF need to face the future.

Air Force Brat · Dec 30, 2012

Haavarla said:
It doesn't really matter what the J-20 look like. All that matter is its capabilities and the impact of the Asia Air power balance.

I think the J-20 will in time be just tha PLAAF need to face the future.

Well of course I agree completely, and their efforts on the J-20 are unique and commendable, this is a much more refined aircraft than many give it credit for. It is a pretty airplane from many angles, not gorgeous like Pak-Fa. Lets not forget that a lot of mining of technology from other sources, has brought them up to speed fairly quickly, but the fly by wire is as I have said, "very smart", and the controls quite well harmonized. As I have pointed out their are only two J-20 prototypes and one J-31, they have made their first flights, and the J-20 has a lot of photographic and video documentation both official and much more amature, "wall climbers". Both J-20s are now at a more secure location for more advanced flight testing, but they both flew fairly frequently while at Chengdu.

So I make no claims to the efficacy of their efforts, but would caution posters not to underestimate their potential going forward, as on of our other posters have noted they are motivated and "cashed up". AFB

gf0012-aust · Dec 30, 2012

The l last thing that anyone should do is underestimate the chinese

Having been on the mainland in 85, and then seen how far they have progressed to "today" is absolutely mind boggling

There's always a method behind their madness.....

motivation is the least of their problems

keithktam · Dec 31, 2012

what about the power generator on their J20/31, do they still rely on import from Russia or have they now able to manufacture their own??

Air Force Brat · Dec 31, 2012

keithktam said:
what about the power generator on their J20/31, do they still rely on import from Russia or have they now able to manufacture their own??

Depends on who you ask, the J-20 is currently flying with a WS-10, which I believe is a Chinese version/upgrade? of the AL-31, and the J-31 is flying with the RD-93, a Russian engine in the prototype. Both aircraft are slated for upgrades to Chinese powerplants, one forum poster on our sister forum Sino Defense has suggested that 2003 the third prototype of the J-20, which has yet to be rolled out will fly with the WS-15, which would be news and possibly a step in the right direction. This post is anecdotal as I am not fully conversant with all the engine designations of the RD-93, AL-31, WS-10, nor the in development WS-15.

The Chinese are making significant progress on their engine developement, and the J-10a and J-10b's, J-11a's through J-15's are all flying with Chinese engines, I believe the WS-10s. Hope that clarifies things a bit for you, our Sister Forum Sino Defense is more Sino specific, and there are posters there who are conversant with all the nuances of Chinese aircraft developement. Cheers and Welcome to DT Air Force Brat.

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