The US is reported to be donating a National Coast Watch Center to the AFP, presumably to include the necessary radar equipment to monitor the country's territorial waters. Hopefully this initiative materializes so limited naval and aerial assets can be more effectively utilized.
Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates
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W3-A Sokol
Banned Member
I think this NCW System is already operational as of 2012 as it has been reported in several local news media outlets earlier this year but additional high tech equiptments will be added based on those reports ...
Did some research and the President did sign EO 57 late last year to establish a NCW System but it has only been provided with minimal seed funding. The reported US grant of surveillance radars will be most welcome.
Aquino forms National Coast Watch System - The Philippine Star » News » Headlines
redcomet_m
New Member
Yes its already up. Its location and model was not disclosed though. Janes Defence Weekly suggests it might likely be a Lockheed Martin product because it was the one tested during 2012 Balikatan.
Hi Sir, perhaps this could help on GRP's intentions for radar coverage plans. Although just news and no details yet but this was announced by the CG PAF. I'm still looking though for news bits. thanks,
Quote from: From a local newspaper FB account.
“There’s an ongoing top-level discussion at the Department of National Defense for the acquisition of the much needed air assets,” De la Cruz said during the 51st anniversary of PAF Air Defense Wing stationed at this air base.
<EDITED>
“This is a realization of the dream we have dreamt a long, long time ago,” De la Cruz said. “That is why many of our personnel will be sent to schooling abroad for air traffic control and related courses.”
Aside from the jets,De la Cruz said the PAF will also construct three radar stations at Lubang Island, Palawan and Zamboanga next year, boosting the air force’s ability to monitor all aircraft entering Philippine territory.
<EDITED>
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Thanks for the update. Hopefully you can add more detail later on. Sadly from several sources that being available to public, it shows much, much more has to be done for PAF to build multi layered air defense system. Not that many of SEA nations have that after all.
Singapore is the only one that I believe already have an integrated multi layered air defense system, with perhaps Vietnam coming in second. However the other large SEA nations like Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia already begin moving on that direction, though at differed paces individually. Philippines has much to catch on.
Wallace Air Station
Wallace Air Station
History - Wallace Air Station
Wallace Air Station - Philippines
Above are some links about Wallace Air Station, a joint USAF, USMC, and Philippine radar station. It supposedly provided radar coverage for defense of Subic and Clark, maybe guiding both USAF and PAF assets because these two installations are the primary priority, especially for the PAF. Wallace was supposedly converted to tourism and industrial state.
I don't know if it was the only one radar station. Highly unlikely. I'll continue to search for other Philippine military radars.
Wallace Air Station
History - Wallace Air Station
Wallace Air Station - Philippines
Above are some links about Wallace Air Station, a joint USAF, USMC, and Philippine radar station. It supposedly provided radar coverage for defense of Subic and Clark, maybe guiding both USAF and PAF assets because these two installations are the primary priority, especially for the PAF. Wallace was supposedly converted to tourism and industrial state.
I don't know if it was the only one radar station. Highly unlikely. I'll continue to search for other Philippine military radars.
Brings back memories of visiting Wallace many moons ago as a computer rep for a US multi-national.. a little slice of America in Poro Point, La Union.. I can still remember an orange drone poised on it's launcher.
As far as I can recall in my readings - there were four radar stations handed over by the Americans after the time the bases at Clark and Subic are still operating. To name some - one in Lubang island (Gozar) and the other, the Wallace Air Station. It's unfortunate though that most of these were decommissioned due to lack of funding for parts and maintenance. However, GRP's modernization plans include six ground based radars (for military use) integrated with civilian radars.
Have the Filipino government decided on the aircraft yet? Are they going Korean ? Haven't been keeping abreast of the thread so sorry if appear a bit ignorant
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Haavarla
Active Member
I have no idea, but i do know they have been sniffing on the Yak-130(131?) at the latest Zhuhai Airshow convention in China.. oh where is that headline?
And something about Russia might be willing to give loan..
But nothing solid from http://www.roe.ru/news/eng_news.html
And something about Russia might be willing to give loan..
But nothing solid from http://www.roe.ru/news/eng_news.html
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Really I like the Yak 130 although it is subsonic it can carry a variety of payloads and would allow them to build up the lost jet fighter capacity and have an air craft with more than one string to its bow.[Mod edit: General warning to all. If the quality of the posts continues below a sensible threshold, the Mod Team will intervene, again with bans. For goodness sake, at least read horge's posts #558 and #560 on the same topic that contains information and sources (unlike your less informed post on the same). Your discussion fails to take into account reliability, maintainability, availability (or mission-capable rates) and sustainability in a discussion on PAF capability of an air craft type. The issues are not just with the capability or threat relevance of the platform. Training is an often neglected issue in these discussions. If it's the T-50, the Koreans will provide training. If it's the M-346, the Italians (and if necessary, ST Aero can provide some support because we will operate the same type). I hope you do know that the Malaysians have help from the Indians with the regards to the Su-30MKM. It's not the Russians that are providing the support. As horge said and I agree, the Yak 130 is politically and logistically a no-go.
Congrats on getting the Mod Team to issue bans like giving out candy filled gift packs at a kid's birthday party, by failing to read prior warnings in this thread. Various members, senior members and Moderators have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread. It is clear to the Mod Team that you do not intend to read the prior warnings given out in this thead and also lack the ability to process information already provided in the thread. Read the thread before posting again.]
Just a quick one ? Do Hindustan still have a jaguar production line? [Mod edit: What's with more buy this and buy that rubbish? No imaginary world constructs, please.
Stop posting imaginary <pet weapon> discussions in an existing thread. Stop with the off-topic thread pollution, about imagined capabilities. Introduction of a new platform, even an old one, costs money. One of the fears is that money spent on this interim solution or <pet weapon> would affect the availability of funds for the desired aircraft.
Therefore, please focus on the possible, within the realm of reason (and having done some basic research on your part). You should cite sources by typing the article title, publication, author and page number to show us you have a serious interest in discussing these topics. ]Or are there any spare airframes. I worked on jags in my previous life it is a wonderfully robust bit of kit although designed for ground attack it could turn its hand to most tasks. It is very able to work from primitive bases and could carry a good variety of weapons loads it is also super sonic. In its last days of RAF service it was used as a test bed for a lot of typhoon avionics. I was just reading the article about how the IAF are upgrading all their jags. if American and western kit is to pricey and Korean kit to specialised,Chinese kit out of the question why not speak to the next new possible super power on the block? India will be looking for friends and will be looking for export markets for their own products. The jaguar is a proven platform and what are the Philippines looking for an aircraft that can escort unwanted guests out of their air space and be able to patrol and carry a punch when needed. Any way just a thought
Congrats on getting the Mod Team to issue bans like giving out candy filled gift packs at a kid's birthday party, by failing to read prior warnings in this thread. Various members, senior members and Moderators have tried to steer the conversation back on track in this thread. It is clear to the Mod Team that you do not intend to read the prior warnings given out in this thead and also lack the ability to process information already provided in the thread. Read the thread before posting again.]
Just a quick one ? Do Hindustan still have a jaguar production line? [Mod edit: What's with more buy this and buy that rubbish? No imaginary world constructs, please.
Stop posting imaginary <pet weapon> discussions in an existing thread. Stop with the off-topic thread pollution, about imagined capabilities. Introduction of a new platform, even an old one, costs money. One of the fears is that money spent on this interim solution or <pet weapon> would affect the availability of funds for the desired aircraft.
Therefore, please focus on the possible, within the realm of reason (and having done some basic research on your part). You should cite sources by typing the article title, publication, author and page number to show us you have a serious interest in discussing these topics. ]Or are there any spare airframes. I worked on jags in my previous life it is a wonderfully robust bit of kit although designed for ground attack it could turn its hand to most tasks. It is very able to work from primitive bases and could carry a good variety of weapons loads it is also super sonic. In its last days of RAF service it was used as a test bed for a lot of typhoon avionics. I was just reading the article about how the IAF are upgrading all their jags. if American and western kit is to pricey and Korean kit to specialised,Chinese kit out of the question why not speak to the next new possible super power on the block? India will be looking for friends and will be looking for export markets for their own products. The jaguar is a proven platform and what are the Philippines looking for an aircraft that can escort unwanted guests out of their air space and be able to patrol and carry a punch when needed. Any way just a thought
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For PAF's LIFT/SAA requirement - there are choices discussed (and indications that the aircraft may fit GRP requirements) but there is no definite choice or contract being signed just yet, despite pronouncements in recent past that the Geagles came out on top. [Mod Edit: Source challenge: Provide a link to a reputable source that state that the Geagle came up on top in air force evaluations, within 24 hours or face a 1 month ban.]
The latest I had read is that the GRP DND had not "solidly" declined on the other offers - it all depends on the 'package' offer since GRP has 'other' needs (and a big one)to fill.
SOKOR had reportedly offere 'soft loans' to GRP for the purchase of the Geagle, Italians (for M346 candidate) did it as well when the DND-SecDef and team paid a visit to Italy early this year.
Other choices - L-159, and the YAK-130 are also on the table. [Mod Edit: Source challenge: Provide links to reputable sources that state that the L-159, and the YAK-130 are on the table or that there are ongoing commercial/government to government negotiations, within 24 hours or face a further 1 month ban.]
The thought of having "tie-ups" is based from a local news paper report that Italy is reportedly 'donating' operational M113 APCs and 155mm howitzer FH-70, allegedly part of the deal of puchase the Maestrales (as bundled items). thanks,
[Mod Edit: Quality of participation matters and we are sick of uninformed local media speculation that pretends to be discussion. Improve the quality of your posts or stop posting. The speculative discussion that you are engaging in enables you to feel like you are better informed than your fellow countrymen, but without doing any learning, research or even original thinking regarding defence matters in the area of procurement.
If you want to start new threads on imagined topics that others can choose to ignore or respond, please feel free to go ahead to start a new thread.
Sorry about the harsh Mod tone, as we have had to issue warnings to quite a few new members in the Philippine navy and air force threads (for talking about imaginary wish list rubbish). The Mod Team enforces standards and we must be somewhat fair across threads, to keep them on topic and grounded.
You will not spam these discussion treads or convert these threads into useless news ribbons. We have provided Mod direction to get this thread back on topic and for you to provide sources with links. If these directions are ignored, again, you will face a permanent ban (and Manila Boy was perm banned for converting all threads to news ribbons).]
The latest I had read is that the GRP DND had not "solidly" declined on the other offers - it all depends on the 'package' offer since GRP has 'other' needs (and a big one)to fill.
SOKOR had reportedly offere 'soft loans' to GRP for the purchase of the Geagle, Italians (for M346 candidate) did it as well when the DND-SecDef and team paid a visit to Italy early this year.
Other choices - L-159, and the YAK-130 are also on the table. [Mod Edit: Source challenge: Provide links to reputable sources that state that the L-159, and the YAK-130 are on the table or that there are ongoing commercial/government to government negotiations, within 24 hours or face a further 1 month ban.]
The thought of having "tie-ups" is based from a local news paper report that Italy is reportedly 'donating' operational M113 APCs and 155mm howitzer FH-70, allegedly part of the deal of puchase the Maestrales (as bundled items). thanks,
[Mod Edit: Quality of participation matters and we are sick of uninformed local media speculation that pretends to be discussion. Improve the quality of your posts or stop posting. The speculative discussion that you are engaging in enables you to feel like you are better informed than your fellow countrymen, but without doing any learning, research or even original thinking regarding defence matters in the area of procurement.
If you want to start new threads on imagined topics that others can choose to ignore or respond, please feel free to go ahead to start a new thread.
Sorry about the harsh Mod tone, as we have had to issue warnings to quite a few new members in the Philippine navy and air force threads (for talking about imaginary wish list rubbish). The Mod Team enforces standards and we must be somewhat fair across threads, to keep them on topic and grounded.
You will not spam these discussion treads or convert these threads into useless news ribbons. We have provided Mod direction to get this thread back on topic and for you to provide sources with links. If these directions are ignored, again, you will face a permanent ban (and Manila Boy was perm banned for converting all threads to news ribbons).]
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Just to reinforce what OPSSG and GF have already tried to get across...
The mod team is sick of these Philippines threads becoming awash with unrealistic wish lists of equipment and hearsay with little to no analytical or discussion value. The suggestion to procure Jaguars of all things is one of the most ill informed, impractical and outright impossible things I've ever read on here. More to the point, those posters who wish to have meaningful discussions are being drowned out by the sort of posts I've mentioned above, making it all the more difficult to maintain the maturity of the thread.
So from here on, anyone who displays the kind of posting that three moderators including myself have tried to discourage will receive a single warning. After that they will be banned for up to a month.
If dealing with these posters does not remedy the problem, then the thread will be locked until such a time as the mod team can be convinced to expect intelligent and robust discussion. I'd rather it not come to that, but if the thread keeps going in the circular fashion that it has over the last several months then it will.
For those of you who wish to carry on the thread in a more meaningful fashion, I encourage you to dissuade your fellow posters from this sort of behaviour, contact the moderator team if you believe it's necessary, and above all else I apologise for the disruption caused to your discussions by both problem posters and the necessarily significant mod intervention.
The mod team is sick of these Philippines threads becoming awash with unrealistic wish lists of equipment and hearsay with little to no analytical or discussion value. The suggestion to procure Jaguars of all things is one of the most ill informed, impractical and outright impossible things I've ever read on here. More to the point, those posters who wish to have meaningful discussions are being drowned out by the sort of posts I've mentioned above, making it all the more difficult to maintain the maturity of the thread.
So from here on, anyone who displays the kind of posting that three moderators including myself have tried to discourage will receive a single warning. After that they will be banned for up to a month.
If dealing with these posters does not remedy the problem, then the thread will be locked until such a time as the mod team can be convinced to expect intelligent and robust discussion. I'd rather it not come to that, but if the thread keeps going in the circular fashion that it has over the last several months then it will.
For those of you who wish to carry on the thread in a more meaningful fashion, I encourage you to dissuade your fellow posters from this sort of behaviour, contact the moderator team if you believe it's necessary, and above all else I apologise for the disruption caused to your discussions by both problem posters and the necessarily significant mod intervention.
Suffice to say that their is no force in Philippines Air ---I am poking fun at some above mentioned statements, but didn't mean to sound disrespectful. Sorry if I came across that way
[Mod edit: We see you like to try the patience of the Mod Team by trolling (violation of rules #6 to #8). You are hereby given a 1 month holiday to enable you to grow up, in the mean time. If you don't change your attitude don't come back.]
[Mod edit: We see you like to try the patience of the Mod Team by trolling (violation of rules #6 to #8). You are hereby given a 1 month holiday to enable you to grow up, in the mean time. If you don't change your attitude don't come back.]
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Unbelieveable
For any newcomers, take a hint, read the Forum Rules and get some lessons from some of the senior members on how to act in here
After all the warnings and advice from a multitude of Moderators, the thread still got trolled and spammed.
Get a grip. We shouldn't have to send out so many warnings on what should be self evident
From my perspective, (and I suspect my fellow Mods) I won't be giving any more warnings - people will be gone immediately - toleration mode is off
We've got better things to do than have to nursemaid and housekeep on here.
For any newcomers, take a hint, read the Forum Rules and get some lessons from some of the senior members on how to act in here
After all the warnings and advice from a multitude of Moderators, the thread still got trolled and spammed.
Get a grip. We shouldn't have to send out so many warnings on what should be self evident
From my perspective, (and I suspect my fellow Mods) I won't be giving any more warnings - people will be gone immediately - toleration mode is off
We've got better things to do than have to nursemaid and housekeep on here.
Haavarla
Active Member
Do we even know any requirements from the Philippine AF?
I see that even Bangladesh is struggle big time with its Re-armament of its AF, and are in talks with Russia for loan and importing some Helis, never mind any fixed wing jet at the moment..
So how can Philippines afford any jet fighter and what is their Requirements?
I much rather see they continue to procure more Helis instead.
I see that even Bangladesh is struggle big time with its Re-armament of its AF, and are in talks with Russia for loan and importing some Helis, never mind any fixed wing jet at the moment..
So how can Philippines afford any jet fighter and what is their Requirements?
I much rather see they continue to procure more Helis instead.
I have not seen any published requirements from the Philippines Air Force (PAF).
The answer is no and I am in agreement with the posts from Bonza and Adroth from June/July 2011, which are quoted below:
According to SIPRI, with their 2011 defense budget of only US$2.2 billion (in 2010 dollars) or pesos 104.7 billion, they can't seem to afford it (despite the fact that the Philippine Department of National Defense (DND) now have access of a number of sources of funding, that was not available before).
Media speculation/reports seems to indicate that they do not intend to buy "real" mutli-role fighters (MRFs). IMO, they intend to buy 6 to 12 Lead In Fighter Trainers (LIFTs), which will also be additionally tasked as surface attack aircraft (SAA). If I am not wrong, it is often reported as the country looking for non-US sourced fighters - which many believe to be Korean or Italian sourced). Their air force needs to acquire LIFTs anyway before attempting to buy MRFs.
The PAF does not have any advanced jet trainers, and its remaining Aermacchi S.211 (serving as basic and intermediate jet trainers) are in urgent need of replacement and there is published requirement for the S211 refurbishment by their air force, given that the PAF needs to train their pilots before they can operate MRFs. On 6 Nov 2012, Aerotech Industries Philippines was awarded a pesos 69.5 million contract to perform a Major Structural Inspection (MSI) of S211 #021 of the Philippine Air Force. MSI, alternatively referred to as Programmed Depot Maintenance (PDM) or Inspection Replace As Necessary (IRAN), is a process by which the subject aircraft is taken apart and all its components — with the exception of the engine, ejection seat, and similarly self-contained systems — are evaluated and then replaced when required.
horge would have a better grasp of the details of the twists and turns (as speculated by their local media).
To make it seem as if their politicians are doing something (when their procurement system is only capable of moving at a snail's pace). This endless stream of local media speculation on buying fighters seems to have be started by President Benigno Aquino III in Dec 2011 (and it seems he spoke out of turn without understanding the problems on the ground, in the PAF, before acquiring EDA F-16s from the US). As previously discussed in this thread, the US will not provide F-16s as EDAs when PAF cannot raise, train and sustain the force requested (their current locally trained pilots would not be qualified for type conversion for F-16s as they don't have access to LIFTs locally). And its clear that the PAF currently are not able to clear the raise and train hurdles (much less sustain the force, they aspire towards). Basically, Voltaire Gazmin, the Secretary of Defense seems to be pretending the coming procurement of the LIFT/SAA is buying fighter aircraft and the confusing statements about buying fighters is really for domestic consumption (to save "face" for his boss, Aquino and also because many in their local press can't seem to tell the difference between a LIFT and a MRF).
It is hard to be optimistic of the state of AFP's procurement, when the existing Aquino administration can cancel the attack helicopter acquisition project (AFPMP-PAF-00-06-042) that was awarded to PZL Swidnik for the attack version of the W-3 Sokol (for suspected corruption - that is never proven). We have to keep in mind that the Philippines is ranked number 105 in the 2012 Corruption Perception Index.
There is a never ending stream of press releases coming from the DND that say or do nothing (eg. announcements about acquisition failure like the recent failure to acquire Fennecs from France). They should stop this news cycle and do the announcements only when a purchase is definitive (i.e. contract signed). To make matters worse, it's press releases about nothing. At this point, the DND has zero credibility. This lack of credibility can be traced from at least Voltaire Gazmin, the Secretary of Defence downwards. The DND pretends to do modernization and their method is by press release rather than by action (See this 31 Oct 2012 report: "Manila plans wide-ranging modernisation of air force", that was previously posted in this thread by another member).
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Another reason for these "announcements" is that somebody from the top doesn't want to have the people wonder about the products/results of the defense budget which might compromise the modernization effort if the people thinks the government or the AFP is "stealing" the money. In most poor Filipinos' mind, they are wondering why those millions are not being spent on feeding them. They can't be made to understand or the government can't make them understand that the defense budget is spent mostly on the pays and benefits of the soldiers.
About the attack choppers, read this spot: http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/search/label/PHILIPPINES, http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2012/11/dnd-plan-to-negotiate-helicopter-deal.html
My personal opinion about the matter is that they might be doing a tactic, telling the people they're buying something purely to impress or they lost budget, and then they tell the people it's canceled because of this and that and it might also impress the people to know that the DND doesn't buy or deal on something which have glitches in the acquisition process.
About the attack choppers, read this spot: http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/search/label/PHILIPPINES, http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2012/11/dnd-plan-to-negotiate-helicopter-deal.html
My personal opinion about the matter is that they might be doing a tactic, telling the people they're buying something purely to impress or they lost budget, and then they tell the people it's canceled because of this and that and it might also impress the people to know that the DND doesn't buy or deal on something which have glitches in the acquisition process.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
For me, despite numerous 'questionable' press release on Philippines Media (questionable in sense on follow up), one thing that puzzle me is lack of any plan for upgrading Aeriel Surveillance Radar system. There are talks on cooperation with US on 'Maritime' surveillance system, but nearly zero on Aerial/Ground Base Radar system.
Just wandering what PAF really plan for. They want LIFT, well that a reasonable one. Rebuilding basic capabilities for Fast Jet operations. However how you expect to conduct effective aerial patrolling if you don't see what you're looking on first.
As far as I know, on the early 2000 when most of the Fighter is grounded due to lack of spares and money to fly them properly, Indonesian AF still try to set asside some budget for Radar operations. In fact they still put plan for procurement of Radar system, even-though only 30% of the fighter fleet can fly.
TNI-AU was not an example of good operational AF, especially on the early 2000 era. However even they, still on the hard time did their best to make the radars still operational. I believe most AF will maintain at least minimal surveillance capabilities. RNZAF did not have operational fast jet now, but even they still maintain operational aerial surveillance.
Just amaze me that with a lot of plan for PAF upgrade, not 'concrete' thing being discussed for rebuilding their Ground Radar system. You can add commercial radar to cover some of the blank spot as temporary solution (just like TNI-AU done so far), but you still need military specs ground aerial surveillance system for your principal area.