The Indonesian Army

koxinga said:

Interesting but wouldn't the Marder represent a older technology since these are being phased out in favour of the Puma? I would think that the K-21 is a much newer technology but the cost per unit are significantly higher. What are the considerations?

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I have to say the Marder Medium Tank does look very interesting.

I am in favor of MBT, not so much for the 120mm gun, but for the armor protection it offers. Preserving the crew's lives must e paramount.

The 120mm gun is overkill in most occasions that don;t involve killing an MBT. IMO a high velocity 105mm gun would suffice for most infantry support roles, and may even be able to penetrate some MBTs.

The range of 30mm guns on IFV like the K21 is sometimes insufficient in blasting bunkers and enemy troops holed up in buildings.

So the only thing that remains is if you can give this Medium Tank sufficient armor protection.

koxinga said:

Interesting but wouldn't the Marder represent a older technology since these are being phased out in favour of the Puma? I would think that the K-21 is a much newer technology but the cost per unit are significantly higher. What are the considerations?

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The considerations in my mind is the political dynamics in Indonesia. The Parliament and the current administrations make compromise on the MBT deal that, Pindad should get some Tech Transfer project as compensation/follow on of any MBT deal.

K-21 was favorite before when K1A1 seems favorite for MBT deal. However when Leopard got upper hand, then the follow up deal for Pindad seems will be provide by KMW/Rheinmettal team. Yes they can move with Puma I presume, but Puma is a new project for Rheinmettal. I presume they perhaps not willing to provide blue print or overall tech transfer for Puma. Besides perhaps they do not want Pindad come out with cheaper copy of Puma, as Renault see when they agree for Pindad using VAB as the basis for Anoa (and now compete with VAB sometime on same market with cheaper price).

Besides if Marder being used as based, it will not be 'old 80's-90's Marder they're going to produce. However something on Marder based with more 'todays' tech. Marder it self is still a proven and capable platform. Pindad already done some research and experiment with IFV, however getting Rheinmettal and KMW (either one or both of them) will provide significant tech boost for Pindad own effort mastering IFV tech.

What I believe Pindad aim is the lattest German tech on armor and protected system. For one thing is, politically 30+ ton armor vehicle is more aceptable than 60+ ton MBT. This could be good compromise. The politician got political acceptable 30+ ton tracked/tankete vehicle, whille The Army got MBT their already hoping for some time.

So who knows, if the deal come through, what come out can be Marder based medium tank with Puma flavor.

Ananda said:

Inilah 21 Program Pengadaan Alutsista TNI | News | Jurnal Parlemen

The site I put, is from official Indonesian Parliament sites. Show 21 priority procurement program that being pushed by Mindef to Parliament for approval. Of that only 5 has got budget approval for payment, while 16 still in the process.

By 31st of August parliament already approved one other program for budget allocation. Which on Indonesian process means final aproval for contract payment already being given. Thus 6 program already given approval by perliament to go ahead with final procurement process. Those six are: Transport Helicopter for Army (from other source indicated Bell 412), 6 Sukhoi Su-30 Mk2 (to make existing Flanker sq as full sq of 16 aircraft, my count thus made 12 Su-30 and 4 Su-27) and replacement for Hawk Mk-53 and Fokker F-27 ( KAI TA-50 and C-295) for the Air Force, and additional BMP-3F and 3 SSK for the Navy.

As this is Indonesian Army thread, I put the Army procurement that are still waiting final parliament procees are: Leopard MBT, 155 mm Field gun, MLRS (two MLRS in process one for Army and the other for Navy/Marines), and Attack Helicopter.

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TNI-AD also wants to buy air defence missile systems, do you already have any idea what type or class the new SAM will be? Once again a small amount of MANPADS against low and slow flying objects?

From today Kompas online: Indonesia Beli 50 Tank Marder dari Jerman - KOMPAS.com

Indonesia Buy 50 German Tank Marder

The Indonesian government through the Ministry of Defence (Kemhan) not only buy 103 units of main battle tank (MBT) of the German Leopard, but will also buy 50 medium Marder 1A3 tank units, and 10 units of tank support.

Kemhan mention finalizing the signing of the contract is expected to be done end of September 2012.

Related procurement, the Under Secretary of Defense (Wamenhan) Sjafrie accompanied by the Head of the Defense Facilities (Kabaranahan) Kemhan R Ediwan Maj. Gen. Prabowo, Opinion and Head of Public Communication Center (Head of Public Opinion Puskom) Kemhan Arh Sugandi Col. Agus, receiving visits Chargé Germany to Indonesia represented Heeidrun Paste in Kemhan Office, Jakarta, Wednesday (09/12/2012).

"The Rheinmetall (producers) will be in Indonesia to finalize the signing of the contract which will be held on the fourth week of September 2012," he explained.

According to him, the first shipment Rheinmetall has been prepared in accordance with the target MBT Leopard Kemhan. Kemhan originally hoped that the weaponry they can arrive in the country on the anniversary of TNI on 5 October. Thus, most of the Leopard was able to display in Indonesia.

However, MBT Leopard is expected to arrive in early November 2012 to coincide with the exhibition's defense industry "Indo Defence 2012".

Sjafrie also expressed "High Level Committee" (HLC) which will lead to Germany to meet with the "Chief Executive Officer" (CEO), both Rheinmetall and Grob factory for reviewing other production readiness of both the German defense industry factory in Frankfurt next week.

Meanwhile, the German charge d'affaires Heeidrun Paste Indonesia pledged to assist the parties in the relationship "Government to Government". Parties to the German Embassy will also help inform the HLC team planned a working visit to the relevant parties in Germany, both the defense industry and the manufacturer Rheinmetall pemerimah Grob and German.

Procurement Marder touted as government measures to make its own medium tank production in the future to refer to this type of tank.



It seems closely to be materialized, the procurement of Marder IFV which in Indonesia classified as Medium Tank. However the source did not mention about the specification of the Marder. A little bit surprising about the number though, since no news about that number before. Probably some will go to Pindad for reverse engineering?

Just like the process of Anoa, it begin with procurement of VAB, followed (much latter on) by Renault support to Pindad and Pindad manufacturing of it's own VAB versions (Anoa). This time though I believe it will be conducted hopefully much faster, since Pindad already has their own Medium Tank project, but with Rheinmettal support, the Marder based Medium Tank potentially can be conducted by Pindad much fasterthen their own VAB based Anoa program.

In Kompas today printed edition, it's reported that 103 Leo 2 consists of 42 Leo 2 A4 and 61 so called Leo 2 Revolution. Kompas printed edition only says the Leo 2 Revolution difference with Leo 2 A4 are in the protection and turret which being operated electronically rather than hydraulic in A4 version. In My book, that's A5. A6 and A7 means different canon, which I do believe it will increase the price.

Now the Budget still USD 280 mio, and got 61 Leo 2 Revolution (A5 ?), 43 Leo 2 A4, 10 Leo 2 based support/maintanance platform, and 50 Marder 1A3. I still hard to believe if with that kind of budget that 61 Leo 2 Revolution actually A6/A7. Unless this deal is just first part of another deal. Perhaps the ToT deal with Pindad actually means more contract for Rheinmettal on the project.

Ananda said:

Just like the process of Anoa, it begin with procurement of VAB, followed (much latter on) by Renault support to Pindad and Pindad manufacturing of it's own VAB versions (Anoa). This time though I believe it will be conducted hopefully much faster, since Pindad already has their own Medium Tank project, but with Rheinmettal support, the Marder based Medium Tank potentially can be conducted by Pindad much fasterthen their own VAB based Anoa program.

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Considering that the Marder medium tank prototype has Oto-melara 105mm gun turret, probably Pindad should also go for Oto-Melara: Rheinmetall Defence Displays Two Marder Upgrades | Defense Update Portal.

After all, the medium tank prototype that was made by Pindad is turretless. Or Pindad will go for Cockerill? Interesting though that the design still could go anywhere depend on parts supplier and ToT access.

Anyway, Ananda, do you have any information about the intention of using Pindad medium tank as IFV like the original Marder? Tank classification in Bahasa Indonesia, especially terminology by TNI and Dephan usually confusing if translated into English. Like the use of "Panser" for every wheeled vehicle and "tank" for every tracked vehicle.

Gadjah Mada said:

Anyway, Ananda, do you have any information about the intention of using Pindad medium tank as IFV like the original Marder? Tank classification in Bahasa Indonesia, especially terminology by TNI and Dephan usually confusing if translated into English. Like the use of "Panser" for every wheeled vehicle and "tank" for every tracked vehicle.

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I can only speculated based on several interview in media by Army and Min-Def brass. Based on several report, there are still 500 - 600 AMX 13 and AMX VCI in the TNI-AD operation. They have to be retired sometime. Some unconfirmed info from local forum claim the Army did not entirely satisfied with the prototype of Pindad AMX-13 upgrade packages. Well, this Marder based Medium Tank project now appears after that.

So I speculated that this Medium Tank at least will be made in to 2 versions. IFV for replacing AMX-VCI, and Medium Tank for replacing AMX-13.

Nexter Ceasar for Indonesian Army

Got some picture from 'Angkasa Readers Community' website in here, of 2 Nexter Ceasar 155mm self propelled gun being unloaded from a chartered Il-76 in Halim AFB Jakarta, today.

No confirmed info how many that will be procured in the end, although local forum says 6 battery (around 36).

Ananda said:

Got some picture from 'Angkasa Readers Community' website in here, of 2 Nexter Ceasar 155mm self propelled gun being unloaded from a chartered Il-76 in Halim AFB Jakarta, today.

No confirmed info how many that will be procured in the end, although local forum says 6 battery (around 36).

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Good news, ive read it somewhere else on the internet, but you post more pictures, thanks.

More good news
"Satu Baterai Rudal Starstreak Masuk ke Arhanudse Kodam Jaya "
DEFENSE STUDIES: Satu Baterai Rudal Starstreak Masuk ke Arhanudse Kodam Jaya
Still an air defence system for low flying targets flying at a short distance.
QW-3, Kobra with the ZUR-23-2KG, Mistral.... always small amounts of many different types of the low end stuff....

Apache for Indonesia : Types AH-64D Block III Longbow and Fully Armed
22 September 2012



WASHINGTON – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress September 19 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Indonesia of 8 AH-64D APACHE Block III LONGBOW Attack Helicopters and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support. The estimated cost is $1.42 billion.

The Government of Indonesia has requested a possible sale of 8 AH-64D APACHE Block III LONGBOW Attack Helicopters, 19 T-700-GE-701D Engines (16 installed and 3 spares), 9 Modernized Target Acquisition and Designation Sight/Modernized Pilot Night Vision Sensors, 4 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars (FCR) with Radar Electronics Units (Longbow Component), 4 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometers, 10 AAR-57(V) 3/5 Common Missile Warning Systems (CMWS) with 5th Sensor and Improved Countermeasure Dispenser, 10 AN/AVR-2B Laser Detecting Sets, 10 AN/APR-39A(V)4 Radar Signal Detecting Sets, 24 Integrated Helmet and Display Sight Systems (IHDSS-21), 32 M299A1 HELLFIRE Missile Launchers, and 140 HELLFIRE AGM-114R3 Missiles.

Also included are Identification Friend or Foe transponders, 30mm guns and ammunition, communication equipment, tools and test equipment, training devices, simulators, generators, transportation, wheeled vehicles, organizational equipment, spare and repair parts, support equipment, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $1.42 billion.

Apache and MLRS ?

1. About Apache, is it true that Indonesia will get the Block III ? Since US Army itself got this type just Nov. 2011. It is very new tech.

2. I've seen that TNI AD (army) last month train used some tracked MLRS.
Is it new and what the type ?

Block III indeed. Info comes directly from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, the government agency responsible for weapons sales to foreign countries.

Can you post a photo of the tracked MLRS?

DavidDCM said:

Can you post a photo of the tracked MLRS?

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That I also want to see. Some rumors in local forum talk about Brazilian ASTROS. However no credible confirmation yet. Thus so far the only MLRS in Indonesian Armed Forces operation (and deployed) is Czechs RM-70, operated by Marines.

Pindad also build prototype for 122 mm RHan MLRS. But that's also not tracked MLRS.

There exist a few more. But you are right, Ananda, the RM-70 is the only MLRS in current regular service, as far as I know.

In former times KorMar also operated Soviet BM-14 (Pic #2), but I believe they have been phased out long ago.

Also, TNI-AD Puslatpur test-fired the Czech RM-51 in June this year (Pic #1). I was surprised, because I wasn't even aware that Indonesia owned this weapon system.

PT.Dirgantara developed the NDL-40 system, but I don't know if it ever reached operational status.

But again, none of them is tracked.

DavidDCM said:

There exist a few more. But you are right, Ananda, the RM-70 is the only MLRS in current regular service, as far as I know.

In former times KorMar also operated Soviet BM-14 (Pic #2), but I believe they have been phased out long ago.

Also, TNI-AD Puslatpur test-fired the Czech RM-51 in June this year (Pic #1). I was surprised, because I wasn't even aware that Indonesia owned this weapon system.

PT.Dirgantara developed the NDL-40 system, but I don't know if it ever reached operational status.

But again, none of them is tracked.

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Ahh, the RM-51. Thanks to remind me on that. Based on the ZIL truck that carried them, it supposed to be procured on the 60's. However BM-14 of the Marines that's being exposed to the public during 70's-90's (until the operation of RM-70). Bit mysterious that one (RM-51). Perhaps because it's operated by the Army?

Anyway the procurement plan from mindef due suggest two type of MLRS being procured. One for the Marines (that's more RM-70), and an undisclosed type for the Army.

Add:
Pindad now produced RHan Artillery Rocket in the caliber of 122mm and 203mm. Thus I can only speculated that the potential MLRS for the Army being consider perhaps has to be able taking 203mm caliber Rocket.

DavidDCM said:

Block III indeed. Info comes directly from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, the government agency responsible for weapons sales to foreign countries.

Can you post a photo of the tracked MLRS?

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Can used Block I or II upgrade/retrofit to Block III?
Or Block III must be build from begin?
I've put the comparison here.

I give you the youtube link to the army exercise.
You can see from 05:00.
It's about 6 unit MLRS, but maybe I'm wrong too see that.
Its not clear all of them, but some of them is wheeled.
But its not same with RHan 122mm, this is have more than 4 tires.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbvHFBXYD5I"]latihan antar cabang TNI-AD 2012 - YouTube[/nomedia]

Those are the RM-51 launchers.

I seconded David. Someone in wiki already put pictures based on that video frames, and enlarge them. It's clearly RM-51 system.

MLRS Astros for TNI-AD

This seems confirm what local forum already talking for some time. Brazilian made MLRS Astros will be the one being procured by TNI-AD.
detikNews : Weekend Nanti, TNI AD Pamer Armada Tempurnya di Monas

With Google Translate:

Various kinds of equipment and weapons ranging from pistols to tanks and helicopters will be on display. Starting from the year 1970 to the defense equipment advanced, minus Leopard Tanks and cannons MLTRS / Astros new will come in early 2013.

"There's armored Anoa, 13 French-made AMX tanks. MBT Leopard, cannon MLTRS / Astros coming in 2013," explained Sisriadi.

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TNI-AD will show some of their equipment in Jakarta right after Indonesian Armed Forces (TNI) birthday on 5th of October.

It will be interesting if they will try to fit Astros with Indonesian made rockets (R-Han) that come out with two versions 122 mm and 203 mm. Both are not usual caliber that fit present Astros.

Some Pictures from Angkasa Readers Community web site, on Avibras Astros MLRS being prepared on participating in tomorrow TNI Anniversary. There's also a picture of Pindad new 4x4 called Komodo which being combined with Mistral launchers.

TNI-AD plan procurement for Avibras Astros MLRS will be for 2 Batalion (6 batteries of 6 MLRS each) or 36 unit.

Previously on my post, the Army says that the Astros will be coming to TNI-AD inventory by next year. Seems Avibras did manage two bring two example to participate in the 5th October anniversary.