New Chinese 5th Generatio Aircraft

AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Recently I saw a TV report about the newest German warship and the whole thing runs on "off the shelf" SUN server systems instead of proprietary military electronic hardware. In a few years they just have to invest a few thousand bucks into new servers that can be exchanged within a day or two and will have multiplied the computing capacity of the ship's systems instead of fussing around for 20 years with some clunky military stuff that costs 1000 times what it is worth performance wise because it was developed for one specific application only, as they did it till now.
Don't believe the COTS hype. COTS has yet to deliver on any of its promises of cost and reliability.
 

TrangleC

New Member
Don't believe the COTS hype. COTS has yet to deliver on any of its promises of cost and reliability.
Well, it is hardware that runs reliably every day in civil applications (like what we're doing, communicating on the web and all that). The rooms on board of the ship that hold the server bank are shielded against EMP, so I don't see any problem there either.
And of course that stuff is cheaper than proprietary military hardware that is tailor made for one single application.
 

exported_kiwi

New Member
Some folks who I talk to over here in China are saying that this aircraft is a "step up" from the J-20, although they won't go into further detail, and they're designating it as J-31. This is completely unofficial but some folks I know are in the know over here.
 

lucinator

New Member
Well, it is hardware that runs reliably every day in civil applications (like what we're doing, communicating on the web and all that). The rooms on board of the ship that hold the server bank are shielded against EMP, so I don't see any problem there either.
And of course that stuff is cheaper than proprietary military hardware that is tailor made for one single application.
well for one thing look at how the STUXNET virus got into the Iranian enrichment facility, by using the fact that the facility used off the shelf parts for the computer system. It makes male-ware that much easier to attack, and the last thing you want is the blue screen of death at 50,000 ft. Also it has been known that the CIA, other government agencies, and other countries have put viruses and built in backdoors into commercial hardware and let it be bought up, then they take control of it as needed.

As for the aircraft, as pointed out easier sure they got the shaping, anyone who has three pics of the f-35 at different angles can make a exact copy of the thing (on the outside) but the engines show the lack of advanced jet know how. At best guess the thrust of the two engines varies from 10,000 lbs less than the single engine of the f-35, to only slightly more, that shows the Chinese a long ways to go on even the basic development side even when trying to copy other countries stuff, not the least in actually innovating their own stuff.

Lastly one earlier poster noted that this aircraft would probably be for the navy since the navy doesn't have any 5th gen fighters. I want to point out that there is speculation that the j-20 will be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers, also the j-20 is thought to be more of a strike aircraft like the Su-24 or even more accurately a flexible large jet aircraft like the F-111 which was used in a variety of roles. The j-20 is huge and would probably not be very good in a dogfight.
 
lucinator said:
As for the aircraft, as pointed out easier sure they got the shaping, anyone who has three pics of the f-35 at different angles can make a exact copy of the thing (on the outside) but the engines show the lack of advanced jet know how. At best guess the thrust of the two engines varies from 10,000 lbs less than the single engine of the f-35, to only slightly more, that shows the Chinese a long ways to go on even the basic development side even when trying to copy other countries stuff, not the least in actually innovating their own stuff.

Lastly one earlier poster noted that this aircraft would probably be for the navy since the navy doesn't have any 5th gen fighters. I want to point out that there is speculation that the j-20 will be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers, also the j-20 is thought to be more of a strike aircraft like the Su-24 or even more accurately a flexible large jet aircraft like the F-111 which was used in a variety of roles. The j-20 is huge and would probably not be very good in a dogfight.
In the Air Force Magazines Daily Report, dated 9/25/12, Arie Church and John Tirpak, senior editors, had a segment titled "China's Raptor Look Alike". They note the similarities to size and shaping of the F-60 to the F-22, and also that it has a ruggedized landing gear which would give it a leg up on carrier ops, as you have noted, the J-20 is a somewhat larger aircraft and is quite unlikely to end up as a carrier aircraft IMHO. Cheers Brat
 
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lucinator

New Member
In the Air Force Magazines Daily Report, dated 9/25/12, Arie Church and John Tirpak, senior editors, had a segment titled "China's Raptor Look Alike". They note the similarities to size and shaping of the F-60 to the F-22, and also that it has a ruggedized landing gear which would give it a leg up on carrier ops, as you have noted, the J-20 is a somewhat larger aircraft and is quite unlikely to end up as a carrier aircraft IMHO. Cheers Brat
Actually the size, weight and thrust are much closer to the F-35 than the F-22, along with its configuration of two bays able to hold two missiles and two bombs. its wingspan is 37.5 feet versus the raptors 44ft (the F-35 is 35ft). though comparing aircraft to each other is a rather bad idea. When first discovered the Mig-25 was thought to be a air-superiority fighter with great maneuverability. When the west finally got their hands on one it turned out to be a interceptor with very poor maneuverability. In 2010 there was a lot of people comparing the F-22 to the PAK-FA and claiming the Russians were copying the raptors design, well this proved to be very wrong. The best way to know what a aircraft can do is to observe it in flight or even better obtain a sample yourself (PS and to Chinese pilots reading this the US airforce will pay big bucks for you to defect.. just kidding :) ) looks are often deceiving.

As to whether the J-20 could be used on a carrier, the F-111 which is about the same size and probably has a worse thrust to weight ratio than the J-20 was originally also supposed to be used on aircraft carriers, also the A-3 which is much heavier could be launched from a carrier. If the Chinese use a catapult type carrier the J-20 could easily be flown off a carrier and I suspect that they probably could off of a STOBAR type either by using a light load or with JATO/RATO.
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
So from what I understand the J-21 "snowy owl" is now the J-31?

I watched the test flight and read up on it...and I am confused.

Why are the Chinese now trying to put up a second 5th gen fighter in the air when they cant even get their first one up? Are they abandoning the J-20? Because IMO that plane is not even 5th gen...just a 4++ gen with a 5th gen sticker on it..

On top of that the J-31 uses the RD-93 engines(you would think they would get their engine game up before trying to attempt to make a second 5th gen fighter).

Its funny wiki put this up:
With the maiden test flight of the prototype No.31001 on October 31, 2012, China moved ahead of Russia to become the second nation after the United States to have field-tested two stealth fighter designs

Ya..well at least the Pak-FA is a more realistic 5th gen fighter and has a lot more higher chance of being put out on the production line and sooner as well...
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Gen's of aircraft can sometimes be very subjective and when it's concerning Chinese aircraft the water get's even more murky.

Personally, it seems really quite ambitious to bring in 2 types of 5th generation aircraft pretty much as a "first go".

My understanding is the J-20 is going to be a land based strike aircraft whereas the J-31 I think is down to be carrier capable (the type yet to be discussed - it'd hint what they want to do with their carrier program), I can't see it being any other way. There's no way they're abandoning the J-20 IMO so it'll be an arrangement like the US has where the 2 complement eachother.

In regards to the PAK-FA, it seems like the more logical path. Proceeding with developing a single type of 5th gen, get that flying and working and then maybe think about a second variant but focus on the first model first.
 

dragonfire

New Member
So from what I understand the J-21 "snowy owl" is now the J-31?

I watched the test flight and read up on it...and I am confused.

Why are the Chinese now trying to put up a second 5th gen fighter in the air when they cant even get their first one up? Are they abandoning the J-20? Because IMO that plane is not even 5th gen...just a 4++ gen with a 5th gen sticker on it..

On top of that the J-31 uses the RD-93 engines(you would think they would get their engine game up before trying to attempt to make a second 5th gen fighter).

Its funny wiki put this up:
With the maiden test flight of the prototype No.31001 on October 31, 2012, China moved ahead of Russia to become the second nation after the United States to have field-tested two stealth fighter designs

Ya..well at least the Pak-FA is a more realistic 5th gen fighter and has a lot more higher chance of being put out on the production line and sooner as well...
While its ambitious and results are too soon to be predicted, for China to field two different LO fighters, it certainly is going to be undeniable that China will have a great deal of learning from the parallel programs, the A/Cs seem to be designed with different roles in mind. One has to commend them on being ballsy
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
So from what I understand the J-21 "snowy owl" is now the J-31?

I watched the test flight and read up on it...and I am confused.

Why are the Chinese now trying to put up a second 5th gen fighter in the air when they cant even get their first one up? Are they abandoning the J-20? Because IMO that plane is not even 5th gen...just a 4++ gen with a 5th gen sticker on it..

On top of that the J-31 uses the RD-93 engines(you would think they would get their engine game up before trying to attempt to make a second 5th gen fighter).

Its funny wiki put this up:
With the maiden test flight of the prototype No.31001 on October 31, 2012, China moved ahead of Russia to become the second nation after the United States to have field-tested two stealth fighter designs

Ya..well at least the Pak-FA is a more realistic 5th gen fighter and has a lot more higher chance of being put out on the production line and sooner as well...
Several thoughts have been put out:
1). The J-20, as RobWilliams notes, is being built for a different purpose (land-based strike, equivalent to more what the F-35 is going to do-or at least have the capability to do), while the J-31 is going to be more for Carrier-operations.
2). The J-31 might be an independent design by Shenyang AC to try and exploit a different market (or, combining with option 1, where they expect a future market-PLAN CVW-based fighters).
 

kickars

New Member
Several thoughts have been put out:
1). The J-20, as RobWilliams notes, is being built for a different purpose (land-based strike, equivalent to more what the F-35 is going to do-or at least have the capability to do), while the J-31 is going to be more for Carrier-operations.
2). The J-31 might be an independent design by Shenyang AC to try and exploit a different market (or, combining with option 1, where they expect a future market-PLAN CVW-based fighters).
From what I've read here, I would recommend you to have a read the similar topic in sinodefenceforum. I'm sure both Comrade69 and you will have a much better understanding of J-20 and J-31.

Here's my view:

1. J-20 is much like a combination of F22 and F35A, which means it is focused on both air-superiority and relatively longer range land attack ability for PLAAF (not the navy or army). It's larger (mainly longer) than F22, but slightly smaller than Su-27/30 (mainly shorter).

2. J-31 is to replace J-15 (which is on trail on 'Liaoning' as we speak). It will enter service later than J-20. And it's for PLAN only (not for the air force). One thing for sure there will be a carrier based version of J-31 like F35C. However, we don't know if PLAN will use it for other purpose (highly likely not). From some of the photos we see that J-31 is much smaller than J-20. Its size should be very similar to F35 if not slightly smaller.

So, I don't really see the confusion between these two planes (one for the navy/carrier, the other is for the air force). As for whose 5th gen plane will entre service first, let's wait and see. There's no point to discuss this kind of questions here. I'm sure not even their project leaders can give you an exact answer, at the moment.
 

the concerned

Active Member
I couldn't see the Chinese buying the pak-fa now that india is buying it.whats the point in buying an aircraft thats the same as one of your enemies,thats why they have got to build their own aircraft.Also the j-15 isn't going to be an ideal carrier aircraft its too heavy and can't take off with full payload its ok to get an aircraft to train up on and by the time they have built their own cv's the j-10 probably wouldn't be an option either.Am i the only one that thinks with all this assistance that Russia has shown China in the past that they have shot themselves in the foot.
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
Am i the only one that thinks with all this assistance that Russia has shown China in the past that they have shot themselves in the foot.
I dont really see it. Chinese technology is still far behind Russian.
PLAAF still has Mig-21's patrolling their skies...I mean J-7's...
 

Wall83

Member
I dont really see it. Chinese technology is still far behind Russian.
PLAAF still has Mig-21's patrolling their skies...I mean J-7's...
Sure they have, but the thing is that they are moving forward with lightspeed. They just havnt had time to replace all older fighters like the J-7 and J-8 yet.
J-10 and J-11(B) will replace them in a few years I would think.
 

dragonfire

New Member
I couldn't see the Chinese buying the pak-fa now that india is buying it.whats the point in buying an aircraft thats the same as one of your enemies,thats why they have got to build their own aircraft.
The Chinese wouldnt buy the PakFa but not because of the fact that India is buying it. Both IAF and the PLAAF operate the Su-30 (Su-30 MKI for IAF and the Su-30 MKK for the PLAAF)

Having two different LO fighters the Chinese have shown determination to follow their own path for a 5th Gen Platform(s) and reports are coming in now which suggest that the J-31 might be intended for the export market which means it is going to be a direct competition for the PakFa
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I dont really see it. Chinese technology is still far behind Russian.
PLAAF still has Mig-21's patrolling their skies...I mean J-7's...
I wouldn't say far behind. You might want to look at the pace of Chinese technological and industrial advances and revise your statement somewhat... looking at the oldest fighter in their inventory isn't a very useful way of measuring where they are (and where they are rapidly going) from a technological perspective.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I wouldn't say far behind. You might want to look at the pace of Chinese technological and industrial advances and revise your statement somewhat... looking at the oldest fighter in their inventory isn't a very useful way of measuring where they are (and where they are rapidly going) from a technological perspective.
Yup - we (UK) only stood the Canberra down in 2006, just as the late Tranches of the Tiffy were coming into service, so planning your air to air strategy based around that might have been um..challenging.
 

colay

New Member
Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter

This is a bit surprising if true, that the Chinese are not interested in acquiring the J-31 but will stick with the J-10 as a complement to the J-20. It makes one wonder why China would not want to field a pair of all-stealth 5Gen fighters ala F-22/F-35.
 
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