No doubt in my mind that the Philippines has motivated and well trained personnel. It wasn't my intention to assert the P.I. become involved in an arms race with their neighbors. The United States enjoys a good relationship with the P.I., however, the fact remains that the US was basically forced out our bases there. That was a short-sighted and dangerous decision mad e by a greedy and corrupt government to serve their own interests. The seeds for conflict in the south China Sea were sown when the colors were hauled down in Subic Bay. A weak presence will embolden the Chinese even further, and not much even the US can do, let alone a pair of former USCG cutterswith a single 76mm gun are going to do.
Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates
- Thread starter gforce
- Start date
PN looking to buy SSMs-
DND orders military to look into possible acquisition of anti-ship weapons - The Philippine Star » News » Headlines
I suppose they plan to upgrade their Cutters with SSMs.
Is Philippine interested in shore SSM batteries as well?
DND orders military to look into possible acquisition of anti-ship weapons - The Philippine Star » News » Headlines
I suppose they plan to upgrade their Cutters with SSMs.
Is Philippine interested in shore SSM batteries as well?
Just an historical foot note to the discussion, the removal of the three primarily US basses from the Philippines were entirely at the Philippines insistence. The US wanted to continue their existence at a reduced level. And there was nothing, at least nothing reasonable, that the US could do about it. It was not driven by any sound policy decision but completely by Pilipino feelings of nationalism.
I am now completely out of touch with the current state of Pilipino nationalism and how it is currently manifesting its self (post-colonial reinvention and mythmaking). So I do not know how strong or how cooperative future cooperation with the US will be.
The nationalistic movement in the P.I. will wind up costing them dearly in blood and treasure from the United States, because to elderly Coast Guard cutters and a few SSMs will not stop the PRC in the south china Sea. The P.I. had the same opportunities and more natural resources than Japan, Korea, Taiwan or Thailand and yet they squandered it. Beautiful country, wonderful people, but a complete mess of a nation due to outright corruption that still is rife today.
Philippines is in China's backyard. Whether Philippines or US likes it or not, Philippines will eventually come into China's circle through economic integration in the region and US will eventually back out due to its horrible debts situation. Up until 2010, there was no major problems between China and Philippines. Even now, I still read about cooperation between two countries' security forces. The animosity is no where near the level of China-Vietnam relationship. All of the current problems are caused by China throwing its weight around. These are all problems that can be resolved through better Chinese policies and gradual acceptance by Filipinos toward Chinese leadership.
When the next round of economic downturn hits the world economy (it has already started in Europe) in 2012-2013, which country do you think Philippines need to rely on for economic recovery?
Before China was even on anyone's economic radar, Japan was the dominant economy in the region. While Japanese goods did indeed dominate the Philippine market and they became one of the largest sources of foreign aid, that did not mean that the Philippines became Japan's lackey.
Your projections also assume that China will not succumb to its own internal issues.
Different time period, different national agenda, different US condition, different geography. I'm getting off track here, so let's bring it Philippine Navy.
fretburner
Banned Member
I'm not so sure what you're trying to imply here, and what your tone is. But are you implying that the Philippines will sooner or later be China's -- not sure if I can spell this out -- btch?! Not sure if that's what you meant by "...eventually come into China's circle through economic integration..."
There is no need to react this way, especially since the facts speak for themselves (and the facts listed below are not projections).
The plain fact is that China is ASEAN's biggest trading partner, with two-way trade to surpass US$350 billion in 2011. China-Philippines trade amounted to US$27.7 billion in 2010, making China the third largest trade partner of the Philippines and in terms of aid China provides something like 3 to 4 times more aid to the Philippines than the US. And in economic terms, members of ASEAN are in the orbit of China's economy and their soft power approach to econmic integration (for more details see this carnegie endowment article on 'Implications of Chinese Soft Power'). China's economy is the second largest in the world after that of the United States. During the past 30 years China's economy has changed from a centrally planned system that was largely closed to international trade to a more market-oriented that has a rapidly growing private sector. A major component supporting China's rapid economic growth has been exports growth.
Unlike the US (which has made no significant progress to sign a free trade agreement with ASEAN), in November 2001, ASEAN and China agreed to launch negotiations for an ASEAN-China Free Trade Area (ACFTA). In 2002, ASEAN and China signed the Framework Agreement on Comprehensive Economic Cooperation between ASEAN and China. Outright, this ACFTA will create an economic region with 1.7 billion consumers, a regional Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of about US$2 trillion and total trade estimated at US$1.23 trillion. This makes it the biggest FTA in the world in terms of population size. And as any in other FTA, the ACFTA will bolster ASEAN-China trade (see link). Despite the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which has value, all ASEAN leaders know that Washington isn’t going to pass more trade legislation in 2012.
BTW, the 2011 edition of the World Competitiveness Yearbook, Philippines is ranked #41 and China, #19. In Transparency International's 2011 Corruption Perceptions Index ranking Philippines is ranked #129 (with a score of 2.6 out of a possible of 9.5) and China, #75 (with a score of 3.6 out of a possible of 9.5).
With the above numbers in mind, let us go back to a discussion on the revivial of the Philippine Navy, which has in terms of major surface vessels, three Jacinto Class (ex-RN Peacock Class), a very old BRP Rajah Humabon, a brand new BRP Tagbanua (Landing Craft Utility) and BRP Gregorio del Pilar (ex-USCG Hamilton Class), with another Hamilton class vessel scheduled for retirement in 2012, and a third Hamilton class vesssel to be procured by 2013. There is also a possibility that the Philippines may receive a Pohang class corvette in the future (but that needs to be confirmed by the S. Koreans).
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If not, then it is the US's b1tch doing whatever the U.S pleases in order to sustain U.S protection.
Can we please stop with the over-simplified terms like "bitch"? Any nation has geographic and strategic realities that must be considered, in one form or another, if said nation wishes to maintain a practical relationship with the rest of the world. In this context, describing one country as another's "bitch" not only grossly understates the complexities involved, it's also needlessly inflammatory towards citizens of the countries involved - and thus adds nothing of value to the discussion.
Furthermore and as Tphuang himself pointed out, the topic is not one for the Philippine Navy thread. So please, if people can come back on track, that would be appreciated. Cheers.
It would have been better had Tphuang himself not pushed it further in that direction. While discussions about current PH-CN tensions do result in pointless China-bashing . . . you don't put a fire out with kerosene.
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Back to the Philippine Navy
Both Philippine Navy Frank Besson class LSVs are currently employed for disaster relief operations in northern Mindanao.
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Has anyone here seen an article that doesn't reference that lone StrategyPage entry that broke this news?
From South Korean periodicals perhaps?
The US has confirmed this week that a 2nd Hamilton class cutter USCGC Dallas WHEC-716 will be on it's way to the Philippines early this year to boost it's maritime patrol capability ...
U.S. to Send Second Ship to Bolster Philippines | Gannett Government Media | defensenews.com
U.S. to Send Second Ship to Bolster Philippines | Gannett Government Media | defensenews.com
What I think we are beginning to see happening is that all of the interested parties which have claims in the South China sea are, with the exception of China, are beginning to look at the possibility of cooperating together to frustrate China’s ambitions. And they do not need a formal block or treaty to do this.
It seems at this time that the two points where China is pushing the hardest are at Vietnam and the Philippines. Of course it is pursuing a strategy of divide and conquer, trying to bully the other claimants in the South China Sea one at a time and starting by picking on the weakest ones first is no surprise. It is strait out of Sun Tzu’s art of war. And it is not a surprise that all other players may choose to provide real material support to both Vietnam and the Philippines to frustrate China’s goal. The two cases are completely different in many military respects but they are very much alike in the primary political one.
In the case of Vietnam, because they share a land border and there are several major Chinese Naval basses within striking distances to modern land based cruise missiles to state as just one example, they have many more options than the Philippines to counter any Chinese military adventurism. To show resolve they do not have to so by trying to match the Chinese ship for ship.
The options for the Philippines are more limited. For them to show the necessary resolve they have to put up a creatable visible resistance at seas and then be willing to use it.
Now it is very unlikely that ether Vietnam or the Philippines can ever muster the forces to stop a determined military smash and grab operation if the Chinese try for a “fate de compli”. But then again they do not have to. If the only way that China can gain the control they want is by the use of overwhelming military force what will then happen is that they are willing to fight the costly battle and take the causalities but not ever back down. Even if they lose, which is very likely they would, the rest of the world would turn agents China and close ranks against them. Remember just about everybody in the world can be severely effected by the closure of this critical trade rout and water way. And China will never be bigger than the rest of the world, ever.
Why would they rest of the world turn against the Chinese’s if they rashly acted that way? The answer is Simple, by such an action they would prove to the rest of the world that they cannot be trusted to act as a good steward of this vital world resource. The only reason that the US and before them the British Empire could rule the waves is because they were good stewards not because they were bigger than the rest of the world. They kept the sea open for all except for a few outlaw states and kept it open and free for all good citizen states to use. If China were to resort to the use of major military force they would be seen as not one to be trusted to fulfill this historical function.
Its official, Congress has approved the transfer of the cutter Dallas to the Philippines. She will be the second Hamilton class cutter transferred, with a third very likely next year.
Looks like this crew will spend some time in Charleston, South Carolina similar to the previous crew at Alameda, California... West coast, east coast... Maybe a voyage through the Panama Canal too...
Looks like this crew will spend some time in Charleston, South Carolina similar to the previous crew at Alameda, California... West coast, east coast... Maybe a voyage through the Panama Canal too...
Acadiana Pirate
New Member
I don't think we forgot "The Thief from Mischief Reef" in 1995. That will never happen again. It is for this very reason that the Armed Forces of the Philippines are rebuilding its capability especially the navy because China stole the reef right in front of PH eyes.
Remember now, China will run out of oil in the next decade and the closer we get there the more antsy she will become. And as the gas and oil revenues continue to pour in, Philippine capability will get better and better to thwart any adventurism by China. For the US, they will try to hang on in securing its ties with the Philippines 'cause it serves as a key component in checking China's influence in the region.
I think that your analyses of the relationship of the US interests in and with the Philippines is far from complete. According to the following link there are 4 million people in the US of Philippian decent. And there are other greater connections and concerns we share beyond the “contain China” idea that you propose. They are many connections between this two peoples that are more important and long lasting than a temporary international political connivance that we as Americans hope will not even be necessary.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_American"]Filipino American - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Hopefully with the Dallas the Philippines get the Phalanx CIWS which can be Cross Decked back and forth with the other cutters. If necessary, I suspect the same can be done with the SPS 40 radar as well.
Things aren't as bleak as some imply concerning such equipment with the Hamilton if the Dallas is transferred with them. Only one of them will likely be deployed at a time.
Things aren't as bleak as some imply concerning such equipment with the Hamilton if the Dallas is transferred with them. Only one of them will likely be deployed at a time.
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