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Yes I'd be very interested to know, even if only by PM. Hopefully it'll see an improvement in capability rather than further losses.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
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Cheap Modern Western Fighter for New Zealand
Hypathetical'
Had an argument with a friend over what NZ Airforce should purchase as a Combat aircraft when its Govt finally wakes up.
Like most small countrys with a population of 4 million there will always be budgetry constraints. So with around 30 Million dollars per aircraft - Here are what we were thinking could fill the Niche and offer excellent bang for buck.
Mirage 2000 Refurb [Modernised] [My choice]
F 16 Refurb Block 40+? Expensive though [His choice]
Other thoughts
BAE Hawk
T 50
Aermacchi M-346
Does the west produce a competitor to the Chinese JF 17?
What do you guys think?
Hypathetical'
Had an argument with a friend over what NZ Airforce should purchase as a Combat aircraft when its Govt finally wakes up.
Like most small countrys with a population of 4 million there will always be budgetry constraints. So with around 30 Million dollars per aircraft - Here are what we were thinking could fill the Niche and offer excellent bang for buck.
Mirage 2000 Refurb [Modernised] [My choice]
F 16 Refurb Block 40+? Expensive though [His choice]
Other thoughts
BAE Hawk
T 50
Aermacchi M-346
Does the west produce a competitor to the Chinese JF 17?
What do you guys think?
This should be in the RNZAF forum. There's been plenty of discussion upon it there. Don't be surprised if one of the mods moves this and remarks on it.Hypathetical'
Had an argument with a friend over what NZ Airforce should purchase as a Combat aircraft when its Govt finally wakes up.
Like most small countrys with a population of 4 million there will always be budgetry constraints. So with around 30 Million dollars per aircraft - Here are what we were thinking could fill the Niche and offer excellent bang for buck.
Mirage 2000 Refurb [Modernised] [My choice]
F 16 Refurb Block 40+? Expensive though [His choice]
Other thoughts
BAE Hawk
T 50
Aermacchi M-346
Does the west produce a competitor to the Chinese JF 17?
What do you guys think?
For your info general consensus is that it aint gonna happen. Even if it by some chance ever did the consensus is that RNZAF would probably get Shornets (F18E/F) in line with RAAF, so as to be able to hook into USN logistics train.
Mod edit: Agreed... Threads merged due to similarity of topics.
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Hypothetically, if no real world constraints are considered beyond budgetary issues and assuming NZ was in a position to fund some sort of fighter re-generation, then off the top of my head I could hardly think of a better, yet cheaper option than second-hand JAS-39A/B Gripen aircraft.
A small outlay to refurbish the airframes and modify to C/D standard and you'd have a cheap but capable fighter capability with a supportable future ahead of it and a confirmed upgrade path (Gripen NG).
The RM12 (F404 derivative) jet engine could probably be supported in NZ without too much extra capital expenditure as I believe a NZ company until recently supported the RAAF's F404 engines used in it's F/A-18's.
As the Gripen itself was used by the UK Empire Test Pilots School, it may be possible to provide fast jet training AND provide frontline combat capability thus reducing financial overheads. RNZAF might then be able to go from a PC-21, T-6X Texan II or similar advanced prop straight into the Gripen, removing the expense of the normal fast jet trainer between basic flight training and the frontline fighter.
The basic weapons for the aircraft have been in the RNZAF inventory (Sidewinder, Mk 80 series, Paveway LGB's and Maverick AGM's) so the corporate knowledge should still exist in some form and whilst reconstituting the fighter force would be a big job, it wouldn't be impossible, it would simply take political will.
Hypothetically...
In reality, none of these ideas will happen.
A small outlay to refurbish the airframes and modify to C/D standard and you'd have a cheap but capable fighter capability with a supportable future ahead of it and a confirmed upgrade path (Gripen NG).
The RM12 (F404 derivative) jet engine could probably be supported in NZ without too much extra capital expenditure as I believe a NZ company until recently supported the RAAF's F404 engines used in it's F/A-18's.
As the Gripen itself was used by the UK Empire Test Pilots School, it may be possible to provide fast jet training AND provide frontline combat capability thus reducing financial overheads. RNZAF might then be able to go from a PC-21, T-6X Texan II or similar advanced prop straight into the Gripen, removing the expense of the normal fast jet trainer between basic flight training and the frontline fighter.
The basic weapons for the aircraft have been in the RNZAF inventory (Sidewinder, Mk 80 series, Paveway LGB's and Maverick AGM's) so the corporate knowledge should still exist in some form and whilst reconstituting the fighter force would be a big job, it wouldn't be impossible, it would simply take political will.
Hypothetically...
In reality, none of these ideas will happen.
^I don't think there is a cheap option, given the cost in training pilots and similar. In the last few years NZ had a combat arm, they were losing pilots left right and center to larger air-forces that offered better pay, and more opportunity. The idea makes no sense, NZ is better off focusing on other areas where it can contribute with bigger bang for buck, and leave the greater scale of Australia to have a manned combat fighter force.
As I have stated before, I think a UCAV force could be interesting, as NZ could even be a potential test ground (particularly for martine), and some knowledge could build up in universities (there is a lot of untapped talent in NZ due to the lack of industrial strength - trained engineers and scientists with nothing to do). I doubt it will happen though.
As I have stated before, I think a UCAV force could be interesting, as NZ could even be a potential test ground (particularly for martine), and some knowledge could build up in universities (there is a lot of untapped talent in NZ due to the lack of industrial strength - trained engineers and scientists with nothing to do). I doubt it will happen though.
I'd like you to show me some kiwi trained scientists and engineers with nothing to do. You make a very broad statement without any supporting evidence.
Our talent who can't get work in their fields here go offshore in droves. The only reason I haven't gone offshore is my family ties and I have changed my focus. Knowledge and skills (my own included) do exist in the universities that could quite easily be transferred across to military use but there is no money being set aside for this. This is no fault of NZDF but a big fault of the politicians of all parties and the Nigels who advise them. It is very short sighted, so we lose our brightest and best.
In some ways the Gripen would be good especially if we could do a spares deal with the Thais who also fly it. Interestingly enough NZ does have the economic resources to support such a program but that is political, so am not commenting further.
Helicopter News
Tucked away on the MoD Site:
Helicopter Capability A109 LUH [Ministry of Defence NZ]
RNZAF A109-LUH Status
Current status
Helicopter NZ3401 is formally 'under acceptance' in Italy.
Helicopter NZ3402 is at RNZAF Base Ohakea’s Helicopter Transition Unit.
Helicopter NZ3403 is at RNZAF Base Ohakea’s Helicopter Transition Unit.
Helicopter NZ3404 is at RNZAF Base Ohakea’s Helicopter Transition Unit.
Helicopter NZ3405 is en-route to New Zealand.
Helicopter NZ3406 is in storage at RNZAF Base Ohakea.
The Flight Training Device will be ready to commence training in late 2011.[/SIZE]
Helicopter Capability TNZA NH90 [Ministry of Defence NZ]
RNZAF NH-90 Status:
Current status
The forecast delivery dates for the Helicopters are:
NZ3301 October 2011
NZ3302 October 2011
NZ3303 April 2012
NZ3304 April 2012
NZ3305 May 2012
NZ3306 May 2012
NZ3307 August 2012
NZ3308 August 2012
NZ3309 (Attrition Airframe) October 2011.
Training of aircrew and maintainers in France has been completed, utilising the first two helicopters.
So, not long now before we see at least 1 x NH-90 in the skies above Ohakea.
Sure they are late, but better late than never arrive.
Some official RNZAF photos of A109-LUH:
RNZAF - The Agusta A109 Helicopter in RNZAF Colours
And if one "googlefu's" for this thread: NEW NH90 PICS IN RNZAF COLOURS
more official RNZAF photos of NH-90.
Tucked away on the MoD Site:
Helicopter Capability A109 LUH [Ministry of Defence NZ]
RNZAF A109-LUH Status
Current status
Helicopter NZ3401 is formally 'under acceptance' in Italy.
Helicopter NZ3402 is at RNZAF Base Ohakea’s Helicopter Transition Unit.
Helicopter NZ3403 is at RNZAF Base Ohakea’s Helicopter Transition Unit.
Helicopter NZ3404 is at RNZAF Base Ohakea’s Helicopter Transition Unit.
Helicopter NZ3405 is en-route to New Zealand.
Helicopter NZ3406 is in storage at RNZAF Base Ohakea.
The Flight Training Device will be ready to commence training in late 2011.[/SIZE]
Helicopter Capability TNZA NH90 [Ministry of Defence NZ]
RNZAF NH-90 Status:
Current status
The forecast delivery dates for the Helicopters are:
NZ3301 October 2011
NZ3302 October 2011
NZ3303 April 2012
NZ3304 April 2012
NZ3305 May 2012
NZ3306 May 2012
NZ3307 August 2012
NZ3308 August 2012
NZ3309 (Attrition Airframe) October 2011.
Training of aircrew and maintainers in France has been completed, utilising the first two helicopters.
So, not long now before we see at least 1 x NH-90 in the skies above Ohakea.
Sure they are late, but better late than never arrive.
Some official RNZAF photos of A109-LUH:
RNZAF - The Agusta A109 Helicopter in RNZAF Colours
And if one "googlefu's" for this thread: NEW NH90 PICS IN RNZAF COLOURS
more official RNZAF photos of NH-90.
Thanks Dave This is link to Wings Over NZ RNZAF forum NH90 photos of NZ3301
Wings Over New Zealand - NEW NH90 PICS IN RNZAF COLOURS
Wings Over New Zealand - NEW NH90 PICS IN RNZAF COLOURS
I know, but in theory you ain't supposed to hot link to other forums -- I post there occasionally as well
.At last, all the orders / upgrades are starting to see the "light at the end of the tunnel" -- on the same MOD pages, news is that the second P3-K2 should be delivered towards the end of this year as well:
quote: The first production aircraft (aircraft number 2 of 6) was inducted into Safe Air for modifications on 27 August 2009 and is currently forecast to be provisionally accepted in the third quarter of 2011.
My apologies. I didn't realise.
I know, but in theory you ain't supposed to hot link to other forums -- I post there occasionally as well
My oldest brother obtained a degree as a physics only to find no jobs in New Zealand, so he had to leave. I left New Zealand because the opportunities were far greater in Canada, not just for me, but also for my kids. Its horses for courses though, not everyone is as career focused as me.
Even so, I think New Zealand desperately needs more industry to retain talent, and that military acquisitions that can turn into business opportunities / partnerships with universities, should be sought. My idea is pretty simple, have the military team up with a few key suppliers of weapons platforms to perform some aspect of development. Maritime UAV / UCAV would be a perfect fit I think, it would provide a highly valuable capability for the RNZN and also, could provide some much needed work for those like you who haven't left the country yet.
You are right it is horses for courses and I think you under estimate both yourself and a lot of others saying not everybody is as career focused as you. Quite a few of my colleagues from school, university RNZAF & Navy days have departed for greener pastures because of career opportunities - mostly lack of them in NZ. The big issue is the lack of money for R&D in all areas and the NZG aren't stumping up with the cash for it. Secondly if you do have the R&D then you get to the manufacturing issue and costs so yes for a small country problems a plenty but not insurmountable. However we are starting to get into the realm of politics. I will finish with one comment which I have said before on NZ threads. We have the people and the skills - it just that the polis and the Nigels are very short sighted.
Still 6-8 heli's, is not enough for a sovereign nation like New zealand to defend itself. Too bad tha your gov. canceled fhe f16 contract. Military budget is always a problem for any country.
The F16 cancellation was 11 years ago. Done unilaterally by a quasi left wing ideologically driven PM who had never worked in the real world, no understanding of security and defence and as time was to show was anti US and even Australia for some reason.
8 helos will do the job because what you have mentioned is the 8 A109s (5 in country and 3 apparently on order) that have been acquired as well plus the 5 Kaman Seasprites used by the RNZN. As you note finances are a big concern and in NZ the bean counters and Nigels take priority over the nations security and armed forces capabilities.
A very good point and long lines of something I suggested on another thread a while back. 2 questions regarding the Tiger. Have the Australian Army sorted out issues they had with it when it was being bought into service? Secondly would it fit into the standard ANZAC Frigate hangar?
Having said that lets move this conversation to the RNZAF thread where it belongs because it is off topic.
Bought across from Where Is The Western JF 17? Thread
If the answer to the above questions is yes then IMHO the Tiger would be the preferred option for the RNZAF as for CAS. There is interoperability with the ADF plus joint logistics and tech support. IIRC the ADF Tiger is being built in Australia so tech support is local as against having to go to Europe or the US.
Your thought of flying it off ships is good especially after the pommy Apaches being flown off the RN assault carrier HMS Ocean in the Med during Libyan ops. The ability to do the same off a frigate (IIRC the ANZAC hangars was built to take 2 helos - albeit Seasprites) or Canterbury or an OPV (hangar same size as ANZAC) then it gives RNZAF greater flexibility and the CAS that is need and lost with the axing of the ACF.
If the RNZAF was to develop this ability using helos then it would be advantageous to the ADF in that adds a CAS ability to what they already have. HMAS Choules (ex RN RFA Largs Bay) and the 2 Canberra class LHDs have large deck space and the option of having extra attack helos onboard would be seen as an advantage.
Given the depth and experience that RNZAF once had, CAS using dedicated attack helos could be gained over time and not need the vast expenditure of setting up a fast jet program. from scratch. This is a niche area that the RNZAF needs to look at.
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
No, the Tiger issues have not been sorted yet. As I understand it, some of the issues are a result of Army stuffing up some of the specs. The bulk of the issues I believe actually stem from Eurocopter via Aerospace Australia selling Army/DMO/the ADF a bill of goods based on fiction... The Tiger was supposed to be in service faster, more capable, and have a lower operating cost than the Apache. Unfort, the Tiger is still getting some issues sorted in Europe, and as a result, is years later (6 years IIRC) and the estimated operating costs at present appear to have been rather... optimistic might be the nicest way to phrase it.
At this point, I suspect that the RAN will have at least one of the LHD's and the Bay-class LPD in service before the Tiger ARH reaches IOC with Army.
-Cheers
Edit: Just noticed I forgot to answer the second question. Now, I admit I do not know the correct answer, I strongly suspect that without work (or modifications...) a Tiger would not fit aboard an ANZAC hangar. The Tiger ARH's that Army is supposed to get equipped with AFAIK do not have folding rotors. Therefore, the rotor assembly would most likely need to be at least partially disassembled prior to the Tiger fitting within the hangar.
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