Royal New Zealand Air Force

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Malaysian army has been looking at arming its 11 A109s with a Giat 20mm and a Zeebruge 70mm rocket pod. I'm sure the A109 has been cleared to carry other gun and rockets pods but it should't be a problem if a customer wanted to.The Malaysian A109s were delivered with sights fitted on the starboard side, for firing rockets. The only problem I have with arming light helicopters such as the A109 with weapons is that they are very vurlnerable to even small arms fire and using them in an attack role would be very risky.
Riskier than using an OH-58 Kiowa in such a role? A Gazelle?

Plenty of nations use similar types of helos in just such a role. The use of standoff weapon systems, EWSP and appropriate tactics ensures they have a reasonable degree of survivability.

I don't see the A109's being used in a high intensity combat scenario but lower intensity operations often still require aerialfire support, escort and armed recon capabilities and I can see the A109's performing very usefully in such roles, along with the other capabilities I mentioned.

I also see the acquisition of such a capability as far more plausible in the NZ context than the acquisition of Super Hornets, for example...
 

htbrst

Active Member
My personal preference would be for the RNZAF to have somewhere upwards of a dozen MPA to provide coverage of NZ and the EEZ/approaches.
Sounds like you've been listening to this:
Ideas for 22 May 2011 - Future of The NZ Defence Forces

Where the first interviewee was advocating NZ create a increase our capability of LRMP , as it is something that we can "achieve" (as in, more practical and more realistic than replacing the ACF) and could then deploy to overseas incidents.

I havent had a chance yet to listen to the complete set of interviews as its about an hour long.

I must look up the paper they are referring about the review of the whitepaper to when I get a chance.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sounds like you've been listening to this:
Ideas for 22 May 2011 - Future of The NZ Defence Forces

Where the first interviewee was advocating NZ create a increase our capability of LRMP , as it is something that we can "achieve" (as in, more practical and more realistic than replacing the ACF) and could then deploy to overseas incidents.

I havent had a chance yet to listen to the complete set of interviews as its about an hour long.

I must look up the paper they are referring about the review of the whitepaper to when I get a chance.
Actually, no. I had not been listening to that. I have suggested before (perhaps as early as 2007) that NZ needed to improve surveillance capabilities, just to keep a proper eye on the EEZ. I had worked out the numbers previously, but a rather low-ball estimate was that a minimum of 8 Orions were needed aloft to provide simultaneously coverage of the approaches to NZ and the EEZ. In point of fact, such an estimate was likely too low, given the elongated shape of NZ and the EEZ, and the fact that the radar aboard a MPA scans a more of less circular area, meaning additional aircraft would be needed to provice overlap. Add in that a third of the aircraft could be undergoing some form of maintenance or repair at any one time, with another third either prepping for or standing down from a mission, that is where I came up with a dozen aircraft. More would be better.

-Cheers
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Riskier than using an OH-58 Kiowa in such a role? A Gazelle?

Plenty of nations use similar types of helos in just such a role. The use of standoff weapon systems, EWSP and appropriate tactics ensures they have a reasonable degree of survivability.

I don't see the A109's being used in a high intensity combat scenario but lower intensity operations often still require aerialfire support, escort and armed recon capabilities and I can see the A109's performing very usefully in such roles, along with the other capabilities I mentioned.

I also see the acquisition of such a capability as far more plausible in the NZ context than the acquisition of Super Hornets, for example...
Yep agree totally that the off-the-shelf light armed recon version of the A109 is perfect for the sort of scenarios that NZ Army is most likely to want some aerial cover - low intensity Sth Pacific 'East Timor' type deployments. Provides recon with sufficient hitting power for anything relatively low key (at least it'll make them duck for cover - or run!). Anything hotter will be largely run by other (bigger) forces where a NZ deployment will be largely a niche ground operation (think Afghanistan).

Way I read it DefMin states that the extra 3 A109 will have self-defence capability (assuming they ever get them now - in the face of cuts:confused:) - which means if Govt man-up they could have a (single operation) deployable fleet of 3 (2 op + 1 on maint.) to provide light armed recon for NZDF PeaceKeepers. Pathetic effort in the wider context, but in the NZ context (again think East Timor) could be a welcome capability.

We ain't getting an ACF & no high-end armed trainers - nor a fleet of seriously armed recon choppers - so I figure A109 options are the best we have going forward.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yep agree totally that the off-the-shelf light armed recon version of the A109 is perfect for the sort of scenarios that NZ Army is most likely to want some aerial cover - low intensity Sth Pacific 'East Timor' type deployments. Provides recon with sufficient hitting power for anything relatively low key (at least it'll make them duck for cover - or run!). Anything hotter will be largely run by other (bigger) forces where a NZ deployment will be largely a niche ground operation (think Afghanistan).

Way I read it DefMin states that the extra 3 A109 will have self-defence capability (assuming they ever get them now - in the face of cuts:confused:) - which means if Govt man-up they could have a (single operation) deployable fleet of 3 (2 op + 1 on maint.) to provide light armed recon for NZDF PeaceKeepers. Pathetic effort in the wider context, but in the NZ context (again think East Timor) could be a welcome capability.

We ain't getting an ACF & no high-end armed trainers - nor a fleet of seriously armed recon choppers - so I figure A109 options are the best we have going forward.
Yep. I don't mean to insult anyone, nor deny the usefulness of a tactical jet fleet, but it just isn't on the cards, for NZ. Hasn't been for the last 10 years and is unlikely to be over the next 10.

Perhaps a concerted effort towards some plausible capability enhancements to existing systems might be more useful, than "I wish we had that" type efforts?

Except for domestic air intercept, armed LUH's, armed P-3K2's and a Tactical UAV system along with the Seasprites will cover the majority of combat fire support/attack roles NZ could possibly require AND is potentially manageable within existing resource constraints and planned acquistions.

1. An anti-ship missile for the RNZN ANZAC class frigates and the RNZAF P-3K's was at least considered within the LTDP as I recall.

2. Seasprites are in-service and armed.

3. A tactical UAV system I believe is on the NZDF radar in future years I believe, so the only real capability enhancement beyond what is already conceivable is the weapons, EWSP and fire control/sensor systems for the Armed LUH.

I doubt many would disagree that the additional LUH capability would be far more affordable than any sort of jet powered trainer or fighter jet capability, yet it would allow the NZDF to coverr virtually every airpower role, except the least likely requirement for RNZAF - air combat...

As NZ isn't going to get that anyway in the forseeable future, I think at least considering what else might be done in the (most probable) absence of such capability.m

That argment is rather akin to some ideas about flying F-35B's off Australia's Canberra Class LHD's. Some just cannot let the idea go, no matter how unlikely in reality...
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I was under the impression the extra 3 A109s would not even be milspec(let alone gunships) and will be purely trainers, similar to the RAN A109 frames, freeing up the 5 original guccis for taskings and ops. Taking into account maintanence cycle downtime means we should actually have numbers available to do other tasks. A similar arrangement to the Kingairs and airtrainers ie leased civi maintained could be utilised for the trainers however we will be already be looking after 5 anyway so no biggie, depends on what option works out cheaper I suppose. Any armed up A109s, other than MAG58, sniper etc, would have to be another tranche and another decision.

12 MPAs??? some how I think we will be doing well to get one for one replacement the way things are going let alone double the fleet unless they could have true multi role abilities to sell themselves to the guys holding the peanuts. At the minimum should be along the lines of what we currently have numbers wise hopefully at least a few more but up front costs will determine, I think 4 P8s, 2-3 CN type modulars and 2-3 UAV types would be a great mix however......

On the ACF(well pure anyway), 14% of nothing available and getting smaller is minus nothing available so I think that boat has sailed, sunk and is currently re-roled into the barnacle buisness and doing well.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I was under the impression the extra 3 A109s would not even be milspec(let alone gunships) and will be purely trainers, similar to the RAN A109 frames, freeing up the 5 original guccis for taskings and ops. Taking into account maintanence cycle downtime means we should actually have numbers available to do other tasks. A similar arrangement to the Kingairs and airtrainers ie leased civi maintained could be utilised for the trainers however we will be already be looking after 5 anyway so no biggie, depends on what option works out cheaper I suppose. Any armed up A109s, other than MAG58, sniper etc, would have to be another tranche and another decision.

12 MPAs??? some how I think we will be doing well to get one for one replacement the way things are going let alone double the fleet unless they could have true multi role abilities to sell themselves to the guys holding the peanuts. At the minimum should be along the lines of what we currently have numbers wise hopefully at least a few more but up front costs will determine, I think 4 P8s, 2-3 CN type modulars and 2-3 UAV types would be a great mix however......

On the ACF(well pure anyway), 14% of nothing available and getting smaller is minus nothing available so I think that boat has sailed, sunk and is currently re-roled into the barnacle buisness and doing well.
Good recall - just checked DWP docs & Exec Summary talks about 'Military Capability Pathways' - chosing the "middle path" which states:

Consistent with the advice which was put to STR in February, the Assessment recommends that a capability mix based on the Middle pathway would enable New Zealand to sustain the NZDF much as we have it, able to do what it is doing today, in places similar to where it is today, alongside current allies and partners, and would be an appropriate response to the expected strategic outlook. The Middle pathway recommends:

...
eight NH90 and eight A109 helicopters (five upgraded and possibly armed)...

I'll try to find reference to self-protection for some or all of the A109's but the above would pretty much say it's the 1st five that'll get that kit.
 
Last edited:

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Except for domestic air intercept, armed LUH's, armed P-3K2's and a Tactical UAV system along with the Seasprites will cover the majority of combat fire support/attack roles NZ could possibly require AND is potentially manageable within existing resource constraints and planned acquistions.
There is also the use of fast jets for CAS/FAC training and air defence exercises/training. Unfortunately, any sort of ACF for the RNZAF is most likely going to remain a dream (with or without pipes depending on the person) unless there is a significant shift in the Pacific security situation. By which time it might be too late.

As for getting 12 fixed wing MPA, I do not think it likely for the NZDF to get that level of funding any time soon, but there is where the numbers start to look 'right' to provide the degree of coverage. And incidentally, those 12 MPA do not all need to be P-8 Poseidons, I would think the RNZAF would be lucky to be allowed to replace 2 P-3K2 Orions with a single P-8 Poseidon, but time will tell.

-Cheers
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One thing we seem to be focussing to much on is that the Christchurch Earthquakes economic impacts will put the kibosh on any funding for for say advanced fixed wing trainers. But the insurance and reinsurance monies will negate most of the that loss and this years government budget forecast a return to surpluses in I think the 2013/14 fiscal year. So all is not lost on the fiscal front.

There is an election at the end of November this year and that will determine the make up of parliament and policy for the following 3 years. Outside of the 2 main political parties there have been shenanigans going on in the right wing and the formation of a left wing party which will have issues. The present government has quite a substantial popularity amongst the voters and at moment that should extend through to election. However there is an unwritten rule in kiwi politics that governments fall if the all Blacks lose and the Rugby World Cup Final is 1 month before the election.

This next bit is off subject but I feel it is something that needs to be thought about and debated. NZ has a wealth of mineral resources that if exploited wisely would bring much and sorely need wealth to this country. We have a large proportion of the population that is struggling to meet basic needs. The levels of poverty in this country are high. We also have a substantial and vocal green population which in the normal course of events is a good thing. However we need to start exploiting our mineral wealth for the betterment of all. Secondly it has been suggested that there is a reasonable possibility that extensive oil and gas fields exist in our offshore continental geological structures. One of the reasons why research and extraction hasn't been done is cost but with oil prices now around US$100.00 (+/- 10%) a barrel then this becomes more economically feasible.

A collary to this is that if it is NZ Inc that is the largest beneficiary of this wealth then we can actively look at such items like an ACF and even other items which we could have only dreamed about. Secondly if the oil & gas fields are as large as thought the NZ$ would become a petrodollar. Thirdly we would have to increase our air and naval assets to ensure security of our oil and gas assets. Just my thoughts that I throw up to see what flies.
 
Last edited:

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Air forces have a heavy lift problem and this is a link to a story which is about some work being done in the US.

Rethinking Heavy Lift | AVIATION WEEK

I also remember some stories about the old Soviet surface effect vehicles that surfaced in the nineties about vehicles cruising at 500 knots 100 ft above the sea surface. The Soviets had invested in the technology for the quick insertion of of troops, so maybe the idea in the article above is not so far fetched.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
One thing we seem to be focussing to much on is that the Christchurch Earthquakes economic impacts will put the kibosh on any funding for for say advanced fixed wing trainers. But the insurance and reinsurance monies will negate most of the that loss and this years government budget forecast a return to surpluses in I think the 2013/14 fiscal year. So all is not lost on the fiscal front.
Yes, my casual reading of the situation is that due to the two quakes NZG is having to re-assess its expenditure/priorities (yet again) and that NZG is now wishing to bring its expenditure under control a lot quicker than what was being planned originally (i.e. in the previous Budget etc). But happy to hear what others here more qualified in finance think etc. I also see the recent 2011 budget outlines defence cap-ex of $600M in the 2011/12 financial year ahead (up from $400M last financial year). Although unsure how much, if any, are allocations for previous/current projects eg NH-90 and/or for new eg advanced trainers or short-medium range MPA's etc (i.e. the two projects signalled to start about now or soon etc. NZG has tended to indicate (eg DWP) that defence expenditure could increase post 2015-ish anyway eg as short-term financial constraints are alleviated.

There is an election at the end of November this year and that will determine the make up of parliament and policy for the following 3 years. Outside of the 2 main political parties there have been shenanigans going on in the right wing and the formation of a left wing party which will have issues. The present government has quite a substantial popularity amongst the voters and at moment that should extend through to election. However there is an unwritten rule in kiwi politics that governments fall if the all Blacks lose and the Rugby World Cup Final is 1 month before the election.
Whilst I'd be suprised if National (Govt) continued to poll at > 50% popularity on election day itself (as they have since the 2008 election - a feat that hasn't occurred previously for decades prior), they should be re-elected easily. At this point in time the two minor parties you mention (Mana & ACT) will be lucky to scrape into Parliament (ACT is more likely to work with National - Mana won't of course). ACT's defence policy appears supportive of expanding the NZDF (but I'm wondering whether this is simply their 2008 policy, updated, which suggests they didn't manage to achieve much if anything in their current "coalition" with National 2008-11 & unless somehow ACT were to win the election themselves, which won't happen of course, then I can't see much of their policy en-acted. I'm also mindful that (the modern) ACT tends to naval-gaze on structure and re-structuring too much, but I may be heartened slightly in that I had the feeling from the 2005 election that the new ACT leader appears to support NZ's defence relationships with eg the US, so perhaps he may offer more than their previous leader).

This next bit is off subject but I feel it is something that needs to be thought about and debated. NZ has a wealth of mineral resources that if exploited wisely would bring much and sorely need wealth to this country. We have a large proportion of the population that is struggling to meet basic needs. The levels of poverty in this country are high. We also have a substantial and vocal green population which in the normal course of events is a good thing. However we need to start exploiting our mineral wealth for the betterment of all. Secondly it has been suggested that there is a reasonable possibility that extensive oil and gas fields exist in our offshore continental geological structures. One of the reasons why research and extraction hasn't been done is cost but with oil prices now around US$100.00 (+/- 10%) a barrel then this becomes more economically feasible.

A collary to this is that if it is NZ Inc that is the largest beneficiary of this wealth then we can actively look at such items like an ACF and even other items which we could have only dreamed about. Secondly if the oil & gas fields are as large as thought the NZ$ would become a petrodollar. Thirdly we would have to increase our air and naval assets to ensure security of our oil and gas assets. Just my thoughts that I throw up to see what flies.
My reading is this is all likely in the medium-longer term. Definitely would need more patrolling assets (air, sea etc). But by then NZDF may be "flying" UAV's rather than manned ACF.

I think the biggest mistake in all this is, not maintaining at the very least in the short-term, a small jet-training type fleet (the one we've banged on about for years here etc). It would allow NZ to expand this "force" if geo-political situation required it. When we think about the potential of NZ's mineral wealth, we tend not to think about the same in the wider South Pacific. Seeing NZ is the protector for a couple of its "territories" and more-or-less other Island states, a strong MPA (and naval) force (with support/logisitics), including potentially jets & UCAV's would be useful.

As one example: But from whom the critics say? The answer is, can't say for sure at this point in time, but I'd suggest in the medium-long term as Island states assert their independance (and economic partnerships), we could easily see various other first world nations step-in to partner in mineral extraction with these Island states. Worse case scenario is these interests become threatened (due to first world rivalries spilling over etc) and "muscle" is brought in. Another thing, how many people know that the NZ Maori has direct historical connections with the indigenous peoples of Easter Island, which is administered by Chile? There were riots in EI a few months ago (and some Maori "activists" lent support to the indigenous peoples). What would NZ's response be if Chile suppressed future "uprisings" by armed force? Occassionally there's riots against French rule in French Polynesia. With Murora Atoll alledgelly (potentially) leaking radio-active materials into the lagoons and sea, I think we can safely say French nuclear testing is history there, but the French ultimately could stay or leave in due course (as calls for independance grows). If they ever do leave NZ loses a security guarantor in that area of the region, so will have to step-up itself. Whom would an independant Tahiti (or New Calendonia, on NZ's very door step) turn to for economic development and security? It doesn't have to be NZ, Australia or the US anymore, it could be any aspiring new power from Asia or South America etc. What's this got to do with NZ ACF etc? Well I'm suggesting NZ needs to lift its game and become the security guarantor for the South Pacific, like Australia is for its northern and north-eastern areas, especially as the US re-focuses and expects other like minded nations to pull their weight.

Another example: NZ should have the military means to intervene in a South Pacific coup (like Fiji), which would mean a "harder" air force to support naval / maritime operations. Sorry if this is very un-PC to say. But when NZ decreases its capabilities (and withdrawls from ANZUS etc), surely these result in such unintended consequences. As seen by USN fast air in the South Pacific several years ago, an overflight or two can make some of the amateur coup plotters think twice.

Ok these are just a couple of extreme examples. But we've talked about the obvious before (eg NZ helping with the defence of Australia & water shortages meaning the likes of Antartica could be eyed up by other nations eager to feed and water their people and land etc) so thought these musings might generate some debate about other future scenarios. The other thing is, as you mentioned in another thread NM, the Straights of Malacca, a major choke point, should that area be isolated due to military means (or even a NBC incident renders the area a no-go zone), shipping will have to re-route around Australia and into the Tasman Sea. NZ and OZ would surely find themselves expending huge amounts of effort, in proportions perhaps not seen since WW2, keeping an eye on movements etc.

Have we also talked about the recent Australian report signalling cause for concern on the Island states ratcheting up debts with donor nations such as China? What then, when the debt need to be called in? A deal to establish Chinese bases (to protect their ventures in mineral extraction etc)? I do admire China's greater forward planning and world-view when it comes to securing future minerals. I hope things don't resort to this worse case scenario of course.

So anything could happen (or not happen, thankfully), but I still believe there's a place for NZ ACF, be that manned or unmanned or a mix in the future. In the meantime this won't happen, but again, a small jet-training fleet though would allow better exercising opportunities for the NZDF to hone skills and again, expand if the need arises.

This is all pie in the sky stuff, but in the short-medium term as others have pointed out in recent days, NZ could simply do more with its existing assets like up-arm/sensor its new helos and Orions and still achive some respectable outcomes to support NZDF when on deployment etc, so this is a good place to start...
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, my casual reading of the situation is that due to the two quakes NZG is having to re-assess its expenditure/priorities (yet again) and that NZG is now wishing to bring its expenditure under control a lot quicker than what was being planned originally (i.e. in the previous Budget etc). But happy to hear what others here more qualified in finance think etc. I also see the recent 2011 budget outlines defence cap-ex of $600M in the 2011/12 financial year ahead (up from $400M last financial year). Although unsure how much, if any, are allocations for previous/current projects eg NH-90 and/or for new eg advanced trainers or short-medium range MPA's etc (i.e. the two projects signaled to start about now or soon etc. NZG has tended to indicate (eg DWP) that defence expenditure could increase post 2015-ish anyway eg as short-term financial constraints are alleviated.


Whilst I'd be suprised if National (Govt) continued to poll at > 50% popularity on election day itself (as they have since the 2008 election - a feat that hasn't occurred previously for decades prior), they should be re-elected easily. At this point in time the two minor parties you mention (Mana & ACT) will be lucky to scrape into Parliament (ACT is more likely to work with National - Mana won't of course). ACT's defence policy appears supportive of expanding the NZDF (but I'm wondering whether this is simply their 2008 policy, updated, which suggests they didn't manage to achieve much if anything in their current "coalition" with National 2008-11 & unless somehow ACT were to win the election themselves, which won't happen of course, then I can't see much of their policy en-acted. I'm also mindful that (the modern) ACT tends to naval-gaze on structure and re-structuring too much, but I may be heartened slightly in that I had the feeling from the 2005 election that the new ACT leader appears to support NZ's defence relationships with eg the US, so perhaps he may offer more than their previous leader).


My reading is this is all likely in the medium-longer term. Definitely would need more patrolling assets (air, sea etc). But by then NZDF may be "flying" UAV's rather than manned ACF.
It appears that the RNZAF has developed a more aggressive instinct with the the practice and use of the Orions in bombing using Mk 82 HE bombs. In March 5 Sqn practiced the use of and dropping of Mk 82s at the Kaipara Weapons Range.
RNZAF - Sleek Greyhound Since the K2 upgrade of the P3 gives an overland ISR capability this gives the RNZAF an increased weapons delivery ability. IFIRC the RNZAF P3K has the capability of using AGM 84 Harpoon and AIM 9 Sidewinders (a2a self defence) as well. Also the 6 Sqn Seasprite uses the AGM Maverick.

I think the biggest mistake in all this is, not maintaining at the very least in the short-term, a small jet-training type fleet (the one we've banged on about for years here etc). It would allow NZ to expand this "force" if geo-political situation required it. When we think about the potential of NZ's mineral wealth, we tend not to think about the same in the wider South Pacific. Seeing NZ is the protector for a couple of its "territories" and more-or-less other Island states, a strong MPA (and naval) force (with support/logistics), including potentially jets & UCAV's would be useful.

As one example: But from whom the critics say? The answer is, can't say for sure at this point in time, but I'd suggest in the medium-long term as Island states assert their independence (and economic partnerships), we could easily see various other first world nations step-in to partner in mineral extraction with these Island states. Worse case scenario is these interests become threatened (due to first world rivalries spilling over etc) and "muscle" is brought in. Another thing, how many people know that the NZ Maori has direct historical connections with the indigenous peoples of Easter Island, which is administered by Chile? There were riots in EI a few months ago (and some Maori "activists" lent support to the indigenous peoples). What would NZ's response be if Chile suppressed future "uprisings" by armed force?
Easter Island is known to us Maori as Rapa Nui and little is known mainstream about the link. In fact it wasn't until 1972 that it was realised that the Rapa Nui language was Te Reo - Maori. What is even less widely known, is that until about 800 years ago the Polynesians had a trade empire, which stretched from Polynesian to Hawaii to Rapa Nui to NZ and traded with the First Peoples in Vancouver, Canada and in Chile. So I think the question would be more along the lines of what would the reaction and response of Polynesia be if Chile suppressed future "uprisings" by armed force? Secondly what would be the reaction of NZG? Because it would have a tremendous amount of pressure put upon it by, not only Maori, but all Polynesians living within NZ and all the Polynesian governments as well, who would look to the NZG for a leadership role.

Occasionally there's riots against French rule in French Polynesia. With Murora Atoll alledgelly (potentially) leaking radio-active materials into the lagoons and sea, I think we can safely say French nuclear testing is history there, but the French ultimately could stay or leave in due course (as calls for independance grows). If they ever do leave NZ loses a security guarantor in that area of the region, so will have to step-up itself. Whom would an independant Tahiti (or New Calendonia, on NZ's very door step) turn to for economic development and security? It doesn't have to be NZ, Australia or the US anymore, it could be any aspiring new power from Asia or South America etc. What's this got to do with NZ ACF etc? Well I'm suggesting NZ needs to lift its game and become the security guarantor for the South Pacific, like Australia is for its northern and north-eastern areas, especially as the US re-focuses and expects other like minded nations to pull their weight.

Another example: NZ should have the military means to intervene in a South Pacific coup (like Fiji), which would mean a "harder" air force to support naval / maritime operations. Sorry if this is very un-PC to say. But when NZ decreases its capabilities (and withdrawls from ANZUS etc), surely these result in such unintended consequences. As seen by USN fast air in the South Pacific several years ago, an overflight or two can make some of the amateur coup plotters think twice.

Ok these are just a couple of extreme examples. But we've talked about the obvious before (eg NZ helping with the defence of Australia & water shortages meaning the likes of Antartica could be eyed up by other nations eager to feed and water their people and land etc) so thought these musings might generate some debate about other future scenarios. The other thing is, as you mentioned in another thread NM, the Straights of Malacca, a major choke point, should that area be isolated due to military means (or even a NBC incident renders the area a no-go zone), shipping will have to re-route around Australia and into the Tasman Sea. NZ and OZ would surely find themselves expending huge amounts of effort, in proportions perhaps not seen since WW2, keeping an eye on movements etc.
I would not use the phrase "extreme examples", let us say less probable possibilities, but possibilities none the less. You raise valid concerns and whilst I have thought about Antarctica. I haven't raised it but it is something that needs to be discussed IMHO probably more in the NZDF forum because it concerns the other 2 services as well plus overall policy.

Have we also talked about the recent Australian report signalling cause for concern on the Island states ratcheting up debts with donor nations such as China? What then, when the debt need to be called in? A deal to establish Chinese bases (to protect their ventures in mineral extraction etc)? I do admire China's greater forward planning and world-view when it comes to securing future minerals. I hope things don't resort to this worse case scenario of course.

So anything could happen (or not happen, thankfully), but I still believe there's a place for NZ ACF, be that manned or unmanned or a mix in the future. In the meantime this won't happen, but again, a small jet-training fleet though would allow better exercising opportunities for the NZDF to hone skills and again, expand if the need arises.

This is all pie in the sky stuff, but in the short-medium term as others have pointed out in recent days, NZ could simply do more with its existing assets like up-arm/sensor its new helos and Orions and still achive some respectable outcomes to support NZDF when on deployment etc, so this is a good place to start...
Strictly on the RNZAF side I would support at present a bit of lateral thinking about ustilisation of current helo and P3 assets. With the helo arming the A109's would be an option because an armed version of the aircraft already exists. Purchasing say 5 more armed and armoured A109's would give some capability that could be used almost immediately, especially if the situation between Fiji and Tonga heats up significantly. We have defence treaty obligations with Tonga so that situation should be of concern. With regard to the Seasprite, I think that the 6 that we have leaves us a bit short and maybe another 4, preferable 6 would be ideal and all Seasprites armed for close support role as well. They have the Maverick but Hellfires and the the 2.75in unguided rockets would be good. Also 2 x 7.62mm MAG58's instead of the standard 1 (1 port side, 1 starboard side - means carry 1 extra gunner who could come from the ships company CSS).

Medium to long term we have already discussed the options on this forum. My own view is that we need a strong, effective and flexible maritime patrol and enforcement capability, a strong, effective and flexible airborne combat close support capability plus an effective and flexible military transport capability.

One other very important thing which a lot of people forget. Take a very good look at a world map and look at NZ and it's position. Take a note of all that blue water around us. Remember the DWP and our obligation to Australia and our Polynesian Island friends and dependencies. We have to be able to operate from the Indian Ocean to Easter Island; from Antarctica to the Equator. We also have to be able to be aware of what is happening within that area.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We have in the past been discussing the EADS C295MP as a possible maritime patrol asset for the RNZAF to cover the 200 nm EEZ. I see that the there is a maritime patrol version of the ATR42. ATR 42MP Surveyor makes a splash Also talking about the EADS C295 they have an EC295 experimental AEW flying PARIS: PICTURE - AEW-themed C-295 makes public debut Although an AEW is way out of the RNZAFs league just interesting what is being suggested with the C295.
 

chrishorne

New Member
We have in the past been discussing the EADS C295MP as a possible maritime patrol asset for the RNZAF to cover the 200 nm EEZ. I see that the there is a maritime patrol version of the ATR42. ATR 42MP Surveyor makes a splash Also talking about the EADS C295 they have an EC295 experimental AEW flying PARIS: PICTURE - AEW-themed C-295 makes public debut Although an AEW is way out of the RNZAFs league just interesting what is being suggested with the C295.
I must admit I'm quite curious about the new C295 and wonder if it really is out of NZs league. It would seem to have a number of highly valuable attributes.
1. Multipurpose airframe with good medium range (common airframe with a possible medium range cargo c-295 in future?)
2. Much more than just a AEW but a combination of AEW, Maritime patrol, Land based tracking and ESM
3. While strictly speaking these capabilities might be greater than what nz requires but a cost benefit study could be very intersting - especially if these aircraft can be used could be used to enhance new zealands peace keeping and support missions overseas where the range limitaions are not as important as the sensor payloads.

from defense-update

The C295 AEW&C has been designed to provide high quality 360 degree surveillance, creating in real-time an integrated air and maritime situation picture and electronic order of battle. The AEW&C situation picture is shared with friendly forces via network-centric datalinks. The aircraft positions Airbus Military and Elta Systems in direct competition with the Swedish Saab Erieye system, considered sofar as the lowest cost option for AEW&C. According to Elta, the 4th generation system developed for the C295 AEW&C has about four times more emitters, is more powerful, more flexible and offers overall better performance, enabling positioning the antennae to provide best coverage of a given sector (120 degree) or 360 degree hemisphere. In addition to the aerial surveillance and tracking capability, the system also includes a surface and maritime radar, providing naval search, Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI). In addition, the system includes Electronic Support Measures (ESM) establishing ‘a new eye in the sky’. The combination of the rotodome and AESA enables high scanning rate, enabling the system to initiate tracks of suspicious targets in few seconds, regardless of the target’s aspect

from AINonline

As an option, the C295 AEW could also be fitted with Elta’s EL-2022 multimode radar under the forward fuselage. This provides ground moving target indication and synthetic aperture radar (SAR) modes, including inverse and classification SAR for maritime surveillance
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I must admit I'm quite curious about the new C295 and wonder if it really is out of NZs league. It would seem to have a number of highly valuable attributes.
1. Multipurpose airframe with good medium range (common airframe with a possible medium range cargo c-295 in future?)
2. Much more than just a AEW but a combination of AEW, Maritime patrol, Land based tracking and ESM
3. While strictly speaking these capabilities might be greater than what nz requires but a cost benefit study could be very intersting - especially if these aircraft can be used could be used to enhance new zealands peace keeping and support missions overseas where the range limitaions are not as important as the sensor payloads.

from defense-update

The C295 AEW&C has been designed to provide high quality 360 degree surveillance, creating in real-time an integrated air and maritime situation picture and electronic order of battle. The AEW&C situation picture is shared with friendly forces via network-centric datalinks. The aircraft positions Airbus Military and Elta Systems in direct competition with the Swedish Saab Erieye system, considered sofar as the lowest cost option for AEW&C. According to Elta, the 4th generation system developed for the C295 AEW&C has about four times more emitters, is more powerful, more flexible and offers overall better performance, enabling positioning the antennae to provide best coverage of a given sector (120 degree) or 360 degree hemisphere. In addition to the aerial surveillance and tracking capability, the system also includes a surface and maritime radar, providing naval search, Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) and Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI). In addition, the system includes Electronic Support Measures (ESM) establishing ‘a new eye in the sky’. The combination of the rotodome and AESA enables high scanning rate, enabling the system to initiate tracks of suspicious targets in few seconds, regardless of the target’s aspect

from AINonline

As an option, the C295 AEW could also be fitted with Elta’s EL-2022 multimode radar under the forward fuselage. This provides ground moving target indication and synthetic aperture radar (SAR) modes, including inverse and classification SAR for maritime surveillance
I hadn't considered the technical aspects when I put the links up. You raise some interesting and valid points that IMHO need to be given consideration. My POV is that the C295 is ideally suited for NZs needs, because of the versatility that has already been exhibited and now this extra utilisation that is being tested. I agree that this commonality, across a variety mission capabilities, gives it an edge. I included the ATR as something that could be added to the discussion mix. The other aircraft that has been considered here is the C27 Spartan.

Across in the NZ Army Organisation forum we got onto a discussion about the C130H & Boeing 757 replacement This is, I think, most of the conversation:

I too am glad I don't that decision but I am against removing the DTA because it would then remove an science / technology development and research skills that NZDF needs as much as it needs, in the case of this forum, riflemen. The DTA gives us a foothold in science and technology cooperation with the likes of Australia & UK without which we would have the potential to lose a lot of capability.

I am aware that some people are disparaging of the 757s but at present we can't afford to lose the airlift capability given that we are in the process of the C130H upgrades which take one aircraft out completely. That leaves us 4; take 1 out for routine downtime you have 3 left. Out of those 3; 1 has just been upgraded so it hopefully will be free of breakdowns but the other 2 - well they have been known to breakdown at inopportune times? If something were to replace the 757s then ok, but I think this is shortsightedness, seemingly short term profits against long term gains. The same thought processes about selling some of the NZLAVs.

Reserves. I agree there has to be a shake up but we still need to have reserves across the 3 services. To have no reserves will leave us up s*** creek, naked in a razor wire canoe without any paddles.

I think that the $76 million could be saved by getting rid of as much of the bureaucracy as possible. I am not totally sure but NZDF and the Ministry of Defence are still 2 separate entities with separate bureaucracies. IMHO money could be saved by recombining them back into one entity plus putting all the intelligence organisations in the MoD as well.
The B757 will stay until the C-130H's go for the very reason you outlined. I generally think the consensus was that the B757 was a poor choice in the context of C-130J offer back in 2002. Then again that was at a time when leadership, policy and acquisition was at an all-time low.

Though I agree that synergies would be better if the NZDF and MoD were streamlined. The intell community must be separate from defence and remain under civilian control for two reasons: 1) Perception and oversight in the political sense and 2) their customers are substantially non-defence sector government agencies dealing with matters though NatSec related are outside of the military context.
If you get rid of the reserves in there current form then the only option is for the Regular Force Reserve to take establish an active component, similar to the RNZAF and their TF force, which solely uses ex regulars except for the band (if I remember rightly). I think the US use this system in addition to the National Guard (Some one might be able to confirm this). However I doubt it will be as sucessful given the size difference.

I've always be opposed to a separate NZDF and MOD. NZ needs one Department of Defence with CDF as its head. We should follow South Africa's lead and get rid of the Sec of Defence. I'd like to see the NZ Intell organised into one organisation, but at this stage I have issues with it been within Defence, given some of the survellience powers etc vs issues with the Bill of Rights.


Replacing with the C130J early would be a better option combined with a dry lease for the 737 for VIP Work (RNZAF Colours). Phase out the B757 first then the oldest upgraded Herc. It would be 3-5 years before the first came online.

I like the comment on the leadership at the time.
I've bought the 3 parts across unedited in order to retain the context.

A Boeing 737 - 800 for VIP and personnel movement over long distance would IMHO be a good move. The aircraft should have the same armouring and defencive systems installed in the C130's. The 737-800 has the range and seating capacity and it has good over water capability. If I was back in uniform and have to travel to, say Kabul or Singapore, in a C130 or a Boeing I know what I'd prefer. Actually I am of the opinion that 2 would be ideal.

Secondly, have the aircraft strengthened to handle the ice runway at McMurdo, which makes it ideal for pax movement to the ice, leaving the USAF C17's and RNZAF C130's for freight. Although this is a small tasking it occurs over a narrow window. Funding would come from Antarctica NZ and the US National Science Foundation.

Just some more thoughts to throw into the mix.

Link to Defence Update article cited by chrishorne;222773 above: http://defense-update.com/wp/20110621_cn-29.html
 
Last edited:

pea032

New Member
Just to keep things in perspective. The future light transport/mpa eez patrol aircraft will either be the c235 or dash 8 Q300, those are the options. Possibly if the c235 is chosen, c295 could be purchased later if it is needed, probably unlikely as it cant do to much more than the c235 or Q300 and with larger cargo/ longer range being delt with by what replaces both the hercs and 757s, which in my opinion will probably be the A400 as it does both tactical and stategic transport and going by what mapp has been saying he wants a platform that can do both to replace them.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just to keep things in perspective. The future light transport/mpa eez patrol aircraft will either be the c235 or dash 8 Q300, those are the options. Possibly if the c235 is chosen, c295 could be purchased later if it is needed, probably unlikely as it cant do to much more than the c235 or Q300 and with larger cargo/ longer range being delt with by what replaces both the hercs and 757s, which in my opinion will probably be the A400 as it does both tactical and stategic transport and going by what mapp has been saying he wants a platform that can do both to replace them.
Maybe I've missed something so what is your source for the C235 / Dash 8 Q300 option / "decision"? What number of aircraft are being considered and in what configuration?

Considering that Wayne Mapp retires at the end of this parliamentary term a new Minister may undoubtedly have different ideas. Secondly although in my POV the A400M would be desirable, realistically and logically, is it what the RNZAF needs and can afford to operate? Then how many do they buy? Given that 5 x C130's appears to be the minimum number of airframes, that RNZAF can operate with at the moment, 5 x A400Ms is a very big ask and I would suggest, in RNZAF service ,would not be economic over their service life. Therefore the quantity has to be reduced. So the question is what number of A400ms would be required to give the RNZAF the minimal level of operability, that 40 Sqn has now with 5 x C130Hs and 2 x Boeing 757s? I can't see the PM & entourage flying to Canberra, London, Saigon, Delhi, Beijing or Washington etc in an A400M or a CN235. Remember that a VIP aircraft defines the status of a country because it represents that country. Impressions count very much.

We may have penny pinching polis, but after the experience and 'prestige' of a Red Kiwi Airlines aircraft with VIP fittings that looks like a business jet, the polis aren't going to go back to flying in a troop transport very easily. The baubles and trappings of office, as one poli put it a few years ago. Finally this has been discussed quite a bit in this forum re A400M vs C130J and CN235 vs C295 so have a read through to see what the general opinion is. Methinks we've given it a reasonable thrashing.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The requirement is for a Short to Medium range twin that can complement the IPV's and OPV's in the Coastwatch role at a bread and butter level currently not cost efficient with P3K2's and also have (ideally) the capability to perform light tactical transport duties that are again not cost efficent for the C130's. This meant a used Q300's as low cost option with frankly not much more than eyeball Mk1 with an enlarged cargo door was investigated or the more expensive CN-235 with a plug and play MPS package similiar to what the USCG uses. However I have stated previously that I personally prefer the C-295M for its extra cabin volume with the MPS plug and play - fat chance though as cash is king with the next rumoured DefMin candidates both of them strong on fiscal skills (I'm not spilling names here so dont ask) there is not going to be any drastic deviation to the current direction. The Q300 and CN-235 are platforms quoted from Dr Mapp in interviews to the media last November and were mentioned in the released Cabinet Documents.

Nevertheless, it all comes down to seeing if they go with the A-400M later this decade ( I can't see a mooted C-17 buy-in package getting traction) and how many hours in the future are required/budgeted for Strategic lift (1100 fl/hrs p.a currently less Moneybags One duties) and tactical lift (was 3000 fl/hrs p.a when all 5 C-130's were servicable circa 2000 fl/hrs p.a at present), and how this is to be spread across the platforms. Since they seem to be following the middle aquistition pathway regarding the DWP/10 - I therefore hazard a guess that four A400M's and 4 CN-235's would be close to the mark - with the option for a couple more if/when eventually required. No AEW versions are needed or even sort as there is no systems roadmap for it at the integrated level. The business case does not stack up for a RNZAF B737-800. Nice to have but - I would rather Defence stick to its knitting and let other Govt agencies fund it. As Treasury officials would point out that the Govt is already a majority owner of a large fleet of modern commercial long range jets that can be used for the 200 hours p.a the PM flies overseas. I look at many of the countries which spend a fortune on Presidential & VIP fleets and usually cringe - they all end up looking like wannabe dorks when Air Force One rolls up as I noticed back in APEC 1999.:cool:
 

pea032

New Member
have a look at the beehive website and you will probably find some of his past speeches talking about it, or theres a summary at defense-studies.blogspot.com/2010/06/new-zealand-seeks-three-new-military.html

as for the a400 i would think 4-6 is the number going off the requirement for c130js in 2001 being 8. much the same thing with the orions, probably going to be 4 p-8s.

and i agree with mr c, vip is going to go. it dosnt take up that much air time at the moment anyway and having a whole aircraft for just that is never going to happen.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Having read through some of the recent RNZAF posts, there are some interesting ideas being raised here.

There is a requirement for the RNZAF to adopt a short/mid-ranged transport and MPA. There are several different possible airframes which could provide at least some of this capability. The Q300 and ATR42 both have MPA variants, as for the CN-235 and the C-295. I am not currently of aware of an MPA version of the C-27J, but IMO it would not be terribly difficult to develop one (it might be expensive though...)

Now both the Q300 and ATR are in service with civil aviation in NZ already, so any RNZAF airframe/engine maintenance could be worked out with commercial Kiwi entities if either of these were selected. However, these airframes are commercial prop airliners, which means the shape and arrangement of the aircraft lends itself to passenger transport much more readily than cargo.

Now if an MPA based off a military transport was selected like the CN-235, C-295 or a C-27J-MPA, a common airframe could be used for both transport and MPA roles. Also, depending on which airframe was selected, as well as the airframe fitout and missions system selections, the same aircraft could be re-roled between MPA and airlift depending on mission requirements. To be honest, my preference would be for the RNZAF to acquire such a capability, since that could provide the greatest amount of flexibility.

Realistically, that would put the choice between the CN-235 or C-295, with my preference being the C-295 assuming a Mission System Pallet arrangement was possible. Incidentally, a (AFAIK non-MSP configured) C-295MPA costs ~US$25 mil. purchase per aircraft.

As for tactical/strategic lift... I agree that a C-17 purchase from NZ is unlikely. However, I also seriously doubt that there would be an A400M purchase either, or if Gov't committed to doing so, that I would have to wonder if those in Government making such a decision should themselves be 'committed'.

While I have brought these points up previously (and likely in this thread too) there are several problems I have with the RNZAF purchasing 4-6 A400M transports. On a cost basis alone, such a purchase would IMO be out of reach for the NZDF, without a massive injection of funding from Government. Funding that if it came in, could be better utilized in other areas within the NZDF aside from just air lift. At present the RNZAF operates ~5 C-130H Hercules, with the most recent addition approaching (passed?) 39 years service. The others have somewhere in the realm of 42 years service. Due to increased taskings, as well as allowing for additional aircraft maintenance needs, the projection is that the RNZAF should have ~8 C-130 to meet air lift requirements. Now, based off pricing estimates from within the last ~2 years for Germany, the A400M costs ~135 mil. - 150 mil. € per aircraft. What that means is that each A400M costs somewhere from just under, to just over, what 3 C-130J Hercules II's cost. Or put another way, The RNZAF could choose to purchase (funding allowing...) either 4-6 A400M transports, or between 12-18 C-130J transports. In case people were wondering, yes, the price estimates I have for the A400M, at the current rate of exchange, put the A400M cost somewhere between ~US$15 mil. less than a C-17, up to ~US$13 mil. more than a C-17.

IMO the A400M has basically priced itself out of consideration, before even examining other factors like availability for delivery, support and through-life costs, aircraft availability for ops, etc.

As for any sort of replacement for the B757's... I do not consider that as something outside the realm of possibility. Politicos being politicos, they may well see to their 'needs' in terms of comfort, prestige, convenience etc first. Having said that, the RNZAF operating a civilian airliner for airlift is not IMO automatically an inefficient or bad idea depending on the caveats. If the aircraft was predominantly utilized for long-ranged lift of troops and material, and/or the aircraft functioned as a MRTT, that would be reasonably acceptable IMO. However, if the function of the aircraft was to provide for VIP transport, State visits, or just normal passenger (troop) lift, then the capability would IMO be overly expensive and inefficient. The NZG already has a large stake in the national carrier Air New Zealand, if/when NZDF personnel are needed to be transported via aircraft en masse over long distances, the NZG could (should?) just charter the flights from Air New Zealand as needed.

The same applies for VIP transport and State visits, but even more so. IMO the PM or Governor General of NZ does not need a dedicated VIP aircraft to transport them on State visits or across NZ. When such a visit is being made, and an entourage is needed for the visit, a chartered airline should provide the level of lift required. A case in point for doing things in this fashion is HM, Queen Elizabeth. When she is traveling on State visits, she is flown in a chartered British Airways aircraft. The RAF does not maintain a Royal Airplane.

-Cheers
 
Top