Did Appledore ever build warships? Military vessels such as survey vessels & OPVs, yes - but not fighting ships. A rather small yard. Now, it builds the hulls of large luxury yachts.
I don't remember saying anything about Harpoons from Type 42. I think you've mixed up posts.
Sorry for misquoting you in a previous reply. I meant to refer to another poster. Apologies for that chief!
We should think about what we mean by Standard. It isn't a missile, & it's hard to even define it as a family of missiles. It's a series of missiles, each of which has something in common with its predecessor. Which Standard do you mean? Also, mere widespread use isn't a reason to buy something. It's an argument for never developing anything, & never buying anything until the world & his dog has bought it. Is that the way we should go?
I'm not saying we should try to do everything (& indeed, ASTER isn't British). We should oncentrate on developing what we can afford, what we're good at, & wherever possible, what there might be a market for. Venturing into heavy-lift helicopters, which we've never built before, to avoid imports, would almost certainly have been a mistake. Some of the other systems you mention (e.g. Javelin) we could, & I think should, have built ourselves, perhaps with partners, but we managed to thoroughly screw up our procurement, leaving us with nobody still making a local product. But in this case, it seems to me you're arguing for us to buy the complete US package, with no UK input, for something where we possess development & production capabilities, which implies abandoning our ability to develop & produce ourselves. None of the countries you mention were in that position when they decided to buy American - and what is more, none of them chose to buy the entire US Arleigh Burke package, as you advocate. What they've all (except Norway, which bought ships from Spain) done is build their own ships, to their own design, incorporating their own technology, where available, e.g. the Thales radars on the German & Dutch ships, local combat systems - and much more. Most of those ships owe nothing to the AB design, & those that do are heavily modified designs, incorporating some very different systems.
Pictures mean nothing-it is after all BAE marketing material, stuff they would have used with the likes of Saudi Arabia. Show me where it is written that the MOD or the RN requested it come with SSMs from go other than the ability to fit it later.
Well unfortunately we do not always have the flexibility to fire from a save position 800 miles away. The subs are save-they haven't had any problems from firing Tomahawks- and they can fire and move on and the enemy only knew the Subs were ther because of the fireworks the Tomahawk produced.
And tell me which countries are we going to invade any time soon on our own that has Ballistic Missile capability to threaten our troops. And before you say Scuds there is a good story about how well Seadart dealt with them so Aster would be fine. And swerve has pointed out that industry hasn't been siting on its backside and can easily go about sorting if need be.
They have not said anything about either-they only commented on Harpoon because a Select Committee asked about it. There are no spare TT at the moment-we would have got four set of the currently decommissioned or scraped Batch 1 T42's and they have probably been used as spares to keep those we need going. Thats if they bothered to slavage them. As for the Phalanx, someone (I think Swerve or Systems Addict) pointed out a while back in this thread that we have never had enough Phalanx anyway and that the T42's only carry theirs when on deployment due to not having enough for every ship all the time. I should think a similar system would work for the T45s as well, and they would carry them on deployment only.
No you listed a whole host of navies that bought 'Frigates' or 'Destroyers' or 'Cruisers' (in the case of the US) where their ability to carry out AAW is just one of their duties. As far as the RN is concerned the T45s main asset is its Radar systems (and related computers) and that 48 cell VLS behind the Mk8 mod 1 containing all those missiles (check the RN website if you like. it is an Air Defence Destroyer, and they emphasis that heavily in their T45 webpage).
Why do you keep refering to the Merlin as a small helicopter while designating the lighter Seahawk as a medium helicopter?
My focus on the Burke's was because they cost the same as the Type 45. The European AAW equivalents cost much less than a Type 45 or an Arleigh Burke (though interestingly some have capabilities that the Type 45 does not). I just wanted to prompt a debate about the fact we don't have a whole set of capabilities on the Type 45 that we could have got for the same money had we bought the Arleigh Burke flight IIa.
All I saw were Artist Impressions (or CG Impressions) they are subjective at best.
There is a difference between what 'I' want and what the 'RN' wants. And I was pointing out that if that is what the RN wants they would have fitted Tomahawk from the beginning, and are obvoiusly happier with ther Submarine solution.
No, that is a Strawman. I did not say we would never need ABM defence on ships, but instead took a pragamtic view of the current situation, and our likely enemies, and unless you think we should go to war against Iran, Russia or China on our own anytime soon then we do not need every capability available (but it has been pointed out ASTER can be developed into an ABM missile if need be).
My mistake-I should have checked the story first! :dunce
No I Said we should have four available, but that was only if we salvaged them off the T42's in question, and if we had not stripped them for spares for the remaining 8 sets on the other T42s. We also scrapped the Birmingham, and the Tubes *could* have gone straight to the breakers. I also pointed out that nothing has been said by the MOD that the Torpedo Tubes will not be fitted to the T45s.
I did not say every other navy was wrong-I said the RN concentrated on getting their AAW systems right, in a boat that has space for future requirements and developments. according to the KURs, the RN bought a good ship (although it still has problems according to the KURs).
There were only ever Plans for 7 Astutes-the number 8 got brought up because the SSN numbers were cut and it seemed silly to build an orphan sub to replace the last Trafalgar. Did you vote? Did you vote for the current Govt? People get what they asked for-the Defence budget is small because the General Public wanted public services sorting. Fact of life-the MOD has not got indefinte resources-and maybe you need to ask the RN and MOD why they bought the T45, given the squeeze of budget.
The Dutch have done some tests, which of course carry straight over to German ships, & with little modification to the long-range radar on the Type 45. And if the French develop it (& they've done some work on the land-based Aster) - hey presto! Same LRR, same missiles.
Doubt it unless it is part of the group that is currently in the black sea. I could be wrong but i believe that the Nato group there is one of the Standing Naval Groups, they were in the area anyway and were actually only in georgia in late july.
