The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Systems Adict said:

You obviously don't listen to any of the radio show phone ins here in the UK

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I can't say as I frequently listen to such rubbish - I prefer real news and discussion, not White-Van-Man complaining because of something.

The point was to understand your definition of independent. Taiwan is a good example to compare to Scotland. So maybe you could help me out by answering yes or no and explain why.

As for the Welsh, have they not already followed the Scots by having a "devolved" Welsh Assembly, their own Parliament ??

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By a razor-thin majority, and a lot now don't know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing - there was less than 50% turnout at the last assembly election.

windscorpion said:

Also it appears Devonport isn't going to close after all.

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/dis...me=yes&more_nodeId1=232470&contentPK=20008664

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kinda obivious the amout of 'Royal Navy is in decline' [don't worry Faslanin will be next to have a story about it being closed ]arcticals kicking around the stated path of the MOD with T45 and the carriers [hopefully there should be some news about T45 long leads for the last two HMS Distain should be used as it was the best name cancelled from the last Darings 1945+]

ARTISAN sounds intersting though i have no knowlage of it could someone link some infomation

Heres a link to an article;

http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/NewsReleases/autoGen_107323145357.html

Hers how one person characterizes it.:

“The upgrade I mentioned to the 996 radar, seemingly to be replaced with the derivative BAE ARTISAN-3D set, would seem to be the initial component in the pressing of extra lifespan out of the 23's than was originally intended. That this is a fairly basic 3D TI/Surveillance set analagous to a TRS-3D rather than a true MFR is a good indicator of the potential for ever seeing Sylver VLS cells and Aster aboard a 23!.”

rickusn said:

Heres how one person characterizes it.:

“The upgrade I mentioned to the 996 radar, seemingly to be replaced with the derivative BAE ARTISAN-3D set, would seem to be the initial component in the pressing of extra lifespan out of the 23's than was originally intended. That this is a fairly basic 3D TI/Surveillance set analagous to a TRS-3D rather than a true MFR is a good indicator of the potential for ever seeing Sylver VLS cells and Aster aboard a 23!.”

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I THOUGHT the the RN had bought & fitted the updated 3D software from BAE, which made 996 a more capable radar & actually took out a lot of the bugs that the system had, in tracking & processing. Remember seeing it somewhere, but can't find anything on the RN official site (looks like it was pre 2007!)

Harryridel - I think that the prospect of Faslane getting it in the neck is VERY slim. The proximity between the base & other "Naval / Military sites & stores" mean that for obvious reasons (involving subs / missiles, etc.), that it's gonna remain.

Don't think the general public is / would be too ecstatic about highly explosive devices being transported by road !

harryriedl said:

kinda obivious the amout of 'Royal Navy is in decline' [don't worry Faslanin will be next to have a story about it being closed ]arcticals kicking around the stated path of the MOD with T45 and the carriers [hopefully there should be some news about T45 long leads for the last two HMS Distain should be used as it was the best name cancelled from the last Darings 1945+]

ARTISAN sounds intersting though i have no knowlage of it could someone link some infomation

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In the unlikely event we aver get Type 45's number 7 and 8 I'd go for HMS Dreadnought and HMS Defiant or HMS Determined. Time we started givnig proper names instead of things like Duncan.

Conservative statment on defence spending

Liam Fox has apparently said today in an interview that the Conservatives would maintain defence spending at its current levels. This is to respond to stories that defence would have to be cut to meet their promise of a real terms increase in health spending made by the Shadow Health Secretary earlier this week (after all, why would we want to defend the country when we can pay GP's more money to do less *rolls eyes*).

That isn't suprising - no government gets elected on a wave of popularity about improving defence. It confirms though that any hope of turning around the cuts already made, being made or being contemplated based on a change of government are unfounded.

Due to the level of defence RPI being 8% (according to the Treasury Select Commitee) maintaining the governments current policy of an increase in defence spending of 1% above the general level of RPI means a decrease in the produrement budget year on year in real terms.

Add to that poor value for money from our buy British at all costs policy, cost overruns on all the big ticket items, the continued swallowing up of huge amounts of the procurement budget by Typhoon, the need to fund the Trident replacement and ongoing costs of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan that mean the forces are operating well beyond the planning assumptions on which their funding was based and I see no cause for optimism. None at all.

Steve

Predictions

Obviously there's a fair split between pessimists and optimists on this board. Someone made a point in a recent posts about predictions that have been up on the thread since it started.

That got me to thinking about inviting everyone to post their assumptions about the Royal Navy in one post and to make a mental note to come back and take a look at them every 12 months to see whether optimism or pessimism seems to be well founded!

Here's mine

1) The future carriers will be built but will be delayed. To keep the costs down they will have minimal self defence capabilities (such as Phalanx fitted from the retiring Invincible's).

2) The AEW platform will be the Sea King with Searchwater initially with the service lives for these machines extended as long as possible. It will be replaced with ASW Merlins refitted with Searchwater thus reducing the overall number of helicopters in the fleet.

3) The buy for the F35 will be cut to around 60 aircraft replacing the Harrier GR9's roughly 1:1. This will provide enough to deploy around 18 on each of the CV's in normal deployment configuration or a full air wing of 36 for one carrier in combat conditions unless the aircraft are deployed on land based CAS missions.

4) The number of Astute's will be reduced from 8 to 7.

5) The Type 22 Batch 3 frigates will be retired and the 7th and 8th Type 45's will not be ordered. This will reduce the escort force to 19 ships.

6) The Type 45's will remain without a land attack missile, an anti-ship missile and anti-submarine torpedoes. They will not be fitted with the Phalanx CIWS to save costs.

7) The design for the C3 will be fixed with no embarked helicopter (which IMHO means we might as well not even bother to build them as they will be bog all use for nearly all the roles that are required)

8) The number of MARS ships will be reduced to 3 or 4 to reflect the smaller surface fleet that needs to be supported.

9) There will be no dockyard closures. Closed dockyards = jobs lost and safeguarding industrial jobs is a more important priority for the government when it comes to defence spending than anything else.

10) HMS Ocean will be retired when the CV's come into service on the grounds that they can act as LPH platforms.

11) We will firm up the replacement for Trident based on 3 SSBN's. As last time 50% of the funding for these boats will come from the existing procurement budget.

I'd ask you to put your own predictions up rather than just having a pop at mine. You can't prove mine wrong and I can't prove them right. Just put your own views and let's let time show who got it right.

Cheers

Steve

spsun100001 said:

11) We will firm up the replacement for Trident based on 3 SSBN's. As last time 50% of the funding for these bosts will come from the existing procurement budget.

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New US Virginia class subs have short "Trident" tubes instead of VLS tubes. These are to house Tomahawks and all sort of non-disclosed stuff. Could it be possible that instead of future class of pure SSBN's RN (and other navies) could head for multi-purpose subs fitted with ballistic missiles, LACM's or undisclosed shadowy stuff as needed?

I beginning to wonder why bother with the nuclear deterrent. Notice, recently, a SM-3 Standard missile shot down a falling satellite in low earth orbit. Its only a matter of time before a SM-4 Standard missile will be able to shoot down a healthy high orbit satellite. And if you can shoot down a satellite, I dare say you can shoot down a nuclear warhead too.

Everyone laughed at Reagan's Star Wars concept. Fast forward twenty years, no one is laughing anymore.

I strongly believe the UK will opt for a stretched Astute class sub capable of carrying a minimum of four upgraded VLS Trident or equivalent ballistic missiles. The Tridents coupled with the Astute's heavy payload of Tomahawks and Spearfish will make for a potent boat. The UK knows it cannot afford to step away from the nuclear club and leave France as the only European nuclear power. It will also mean the recently upgraded submarine design and build expertise will remain in the UK and save on R&D / maintenance costs.

The Type 45's, and newer versions of the T23's will eventually receive upgraded ordinance. I'm convinced they will end up with a 6-inch version of the land-based AS90. BAE has just received a contract to continue conceptual planning, link as follows:

(http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...tics/StudyMaySeeNavyGetIncreasedFirepower.htm.)

Also I'm convinced the 45's will end up with Harpoon (now fitted for, but not with) and Sea-Ram upgrades once the Phalanx's taken from the T42's have run their course and require upgrading. Hopefully we will also see a longer range Aster come to the fore in the next 10 years. The great thing about the T45's is they have plenty of room for sensor and armament enhancements.

Sea Toby said:

Everyone laughed at Reagan's Star Wars concept. Fast forward twenty years, no one is laughing anymore.

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Well, Reagan had all sorts of stupid concepts, like the idea that someone could actually win the cold war...

But even if someone invented quite good BMD shield, there's still room for other delivery options such as cruise missiles, UUV's etc.

Btw, back to RN issues, I'm wondering by the information available at this date, why did RN abandon the Horizon-class destroyer? Is RN gaining something from this? At very least, to continental euroweenie point of view, joint projects are harder to cancel or cut, witness the Euro-Frankenstein Typhoon...

Has there been discussions with France about collaborating on future sub projects?

Once again, I hope the best possible future for RN. My personal experience working with British Army was that they were superb professionals. But I must say that British military procurement for last 63 years has been quite amusing, in black humour way.

Jon K said:

Well, Reagan had all sorts of stupid concepts, like the idea that someone could actually win the cold war...

But even if someone invented quite good BMD shield, there's still room for other delivery options such as cruise missiles, UUV's etc.

Btw, back to RN issues, I'm wondering by the information available at this date, why did RN abandon the Horizon-class destroyer? Is RN gaining something from this? At very least, to continental euroweenie point of view, joint projects are harder to cancel or cut, witness the Euro-Frankenstein Typhoon...

Has there been discussions with France about collaborating on future sub projects?

Once again, I hope the best possible future for RN. My personal experience working with British Army was that they were superb professionals. But I must say that British military procurement for last 63 years has been quite amusing, in black humour way.

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Well the British got out of Horizon only to end up with Type 45s carrying the same missiles. Yes the Sampson radar is apparently more powerful than the Empar, but hell we are almost ready with the active phased array version of Empar anyway...
I guess the Italian and French Horizon are too multirole and too heavily equipped for a RN who wanted a pure AAW ship.
No there are no plans for collaboration with the French on SSNs... and by the way let's wait and see how the collaboration on the Queen Elizabeth carriers goes before seeking a new one

cheers

contedicavour said:

Well the British got out of Horizon only to end up with Type 45s carrying the same missiles. Yes the Sampson radar is apparently more powerful than the Empar, but hell we are almost ready with the active phased array version of Empar anyway...
I guess the Italian and French Horizon are too multirole and too heavily equipped for a RN who wanted a pure AAW ship.
No there are no plans for collaboration with the French on SSNs... and by the way let's wait and see how the collaboration on the Queen Elizabeth carriers goes before seeking a new one

cheers

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from you side of the channel I would be interested in seeing how the defense review in France goes see what happens but so far the CVF/Queen Elizabeth/PA2 seems to be working quite nicely but you never know until the hulls are in the water

riksavage said:

The Type 45's, and newer versions of the T23's will eventually receive upgraded ordinance. I'm convinced they will end up with a 6-inch version of the land-based AS90. BAE has just received a contract to continue conceptual planning, link as follows:

(http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...tics/StudyMaySeeNavyGetIncreasedFirepower.htm.)

Also I'm convinced the 45's will end up with Harpoon (now fitted for, but not with) and Sea-Ram upgrades once the Phalanx's taken from the T42's have run their course and require upgrading. Hopefully we will also see a longer range Aster come to the fore in the next 10 years. The great thing about the T45's is they have plenty of room for sensor and armament enhancements.

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I like some of your thinking ! But think that some of your thoughts are a little off base.

To follow on with the last few postings in the thread, I see the carriers
being S T R E C H E D out.

I see the T22's & T23's being maintained to the best abilities of the current budgets (If it's needed to "Go into harms way / deployment", it will get everything, if it's not, it won't !)

A total of 6 T45's, with Harpoon & PHALANX (SEA-RAM is a fallacy ! NEVER GONNA HAPPEN !nfloorl: ), once the units have been freed up from the 42's.

The 155mm looks like it may make the T45's, but not before they've been handed over to the RN & Daring hits her 5 year in-service maintenance period. (The AS90 idea's been around since 2002 / 2003, but seems to be a "keeping up with the Germans" idea, as they've put a Leopard II turret on a ship for trials, (posted elsewhere in these forums !)).

The Aster option will grow, only if the budget allows, as will the "phased Array" (Think that every 3 / 5 years the technology will be systematically offered as "upgrades", as the processing power & equipment moves fwd, just like the domestic PC market!)

The FSC & MARS programmes (excluding the phase 1 for the 6 ships that's already been announced), will "progress" also, being drip fed funds to continue the baseline design, just like the way CVF has been for the last 5 years.


But, the interesting part for me is...

What will happen to the T 42's when T 45's come on stream in 2009??

Scrapped, or sold off to the Southern America's ??


Systems Adict

contedicavour said:

Well the British got out of Horizon only to end up with Type 45s carrying the same missiles. Yes the Sampson radar is apparently more powerful than the Empar, but hell we are almost ready with the active phased array version of Empar anyway...
I guess the Italian and French Horizon are too multirole and too heavily equipped for a RN who wanted a pure AAW ship.

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I remember reading (from UK sources) that the deal collapsed as the RN wanted proper destroyer while Italians and the French were looking at lighter frigate. The end result is that Type 45 and Horizonts share almost same dimensions while Horizon seems to be more capable from layman's point of view. But, I would guess some pork could be spent on BaE I guess.

By the way, what was the last time Britain managed to sell a frigate / destroyer sized combatant to any country? Was it Type 42's to Argentina and Niteroi's to Brazil, deals closed some 35 years ago? All this seems quite curious considering the good reputation RN has. Are British ships too rigorously built for export markets or do they represent bad design or workmanship? Canadian Forces purchased former Upholder's were they satisfied with them?

Jon K said:

By the way, what was the last time Britain managed to sell a frigate / destroyer sized combatant to any country? Was it Type 42's to Argentina and Niteroi's to Brazil, deals closed some 35 years ago? All this seems quite curious considering the good reputation RN has. Are British ships too rigorously built for export markets or do they represent bad design or workmanship? Canadian Forces purchased former Upholder's were they satisfied with them?

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Four Type 22 to Brazil, mid-nineties. Two Type 22 to Romania 2003 and one Type 22 to Chile in 2003. Three Type 23 to Chile in 2006 (?).

Three 2,500 ton OPVs for Oman 2007:

http://defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5756

Then there are the Brunei corvettes.

@System Addict
It was a modified PzH2000 turret which they tested. And the program is in a halt. Our new F125s are going to get 127mm OTOs.

Systems Adict said:

The 155mm looks like it may make the T45's, but not before they've been handed over to the RN & Daring hits her 5 year in-service maintenance period. (The AS90 idea's been around since 2002 / 2003, but seems to be a "keeping up with the Germans" idea, as they've put a Leopard II turret on a ship for trials, (posted elsewhere in these forums !)).



Systems Adict

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The Germans in fact fitted the turret from a PzH 2000 155mm SP gun rather than a Leopard II, not much call for anti-tank missions on the high seas. :

Waylander said:

@System Addict
It was a modified PzH2000 turret which they tested. And the program is in a halt. Our new F125s are going to get 127mm OTOs.

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Dang, Waylander! You beat me to it by 60seconds!

Grand Danois said:

Four Type 22 to Brazil, mid-nineties. Two Type 22 to Romania 2003 and one Type 22 to Chile in 2003. Three Type 23 to Chile in 2006 (?).

Three 2,500 ton OPVs for Oman 2007:

http://defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5756

Then there are the Brunei corvettes.

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Ah, should have been more specific, I meant new construction ships. I put Upholders on this class as they were not worked up to operational use before sold to Canada, IIRC. There's been news reports about the various problems of Victoria-class due to bad workmanship and design, but without knowing anything about them I would not say whether this is normal speculative journalism.