By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.
Discussion in 'Army & Security Forces' started by Red aRRow, Apr 2, 2003.
Which is the World's Most Capable Tank??
Abrams... Leopard and then Alkhalid.
you forgot something....
Yes Yes I hate to bring this up but I'm an unbiased guy, you forgot the Israeli Merkava 4 which is also one of the best tanks in the world.
Merkava 4 Main Battle Tank
The Israeli Ministry of Defence held the roll out ceremony of the new main battle tank, Merkava 4, on 24 June 2002. The 65t Merkava 4 main battle tank entered full production in 2001 and will be in service with the Israel Defence Forces by 2004. The Ministry of Defence will manufacture between 50 and 70 Merkava 4 tanks per year and initial estimates indicate that up to 400 tanks will be manufactured. The Merkava 4 has been extensively improved and features new armour protection and gun and electronics systems.
The Merkava 4 is slightly larger than the Merkava 3 Baz, which has been in service with the IDF since 1990. The Merkava 3 is offered for export by SIBAT based in Tel Aviv. The Merkava 4 is not offered for export but the systems and components are exported.
The tank is capable of carrying eight infantry soldiers, a Command Group or three litter patients (stretcher casualties) in addition to the tank crew of commander, loader, gunner and driver. The tank is capable of firing on the move at moving targets and has demonstrated high hit probability in firing against attack helicopters using conventional anti-tank munitions.
Major contractors include: the El Op Electro-Optic Industries subsidiary of Elbit Systems which is responsible for the fire control system; the Israel Defence Force which carries out main construction and system integration and testing; Israel Military Industries for the supply of the main gun, ballistic protection and munitions; Imco Industries for the electrical systems; Urdan Industries for the hull, main turret and castings; and IAI Ramta for protection components.
The main part of the tank production, the construction of the hull and integration of all the systems is carried out in the Israel Defence Force Workshop.
The Merkava 4 has a new all electric turret developed by Elbit and subsidiary El-Op. Only one hatch is installed in the turret, the commander's hatch.
The improved 120mm smooth bore gun has been developed by Israel Military Industries. The new gun is an advanced generation of the gun developed for the Merkava 3. A Vidco thermal shroud on the gun reduces bending of the barrel resulting from environmental and firing conditions. The gun can fire higher power munitions including new 120mm high penetration projectiles and guided shells. The loader can select semi-automatically the ammunition type. The tank carries 48 rounds of ammunition each stored in a protective container. An electrically operated revolving magazine contains 10 ready-to-fire rounds.
The range of ammunition includes APFSDS-T M711 (CL 3254), the HEAT-MP-T M325 (CL 3105) and the TPCSDS-T M324 (CL 3139) supplied by the Ammunition Group of Israel Military Industries. The gun is also capable of firing French, German or US 120mm rounds.
The tank is fitted with 7.62mm machine guns and an internally operated 60mm mortar system developed by Soltam Ltd. The mortar can fire explosive and illumination rounds to a range of 2,700m.
The protection suite includes an advanced electromagnetic threat identification and warning system.
EL OP FIRE CONTROL
The new fire control system, developed by El Op, includes very advanced features including the capability to acquire and lock onto moving targets, even airborne helicopters, while the tank itself is on the move.
The computer controlled fire control system includes line of sight stabilisation in two axes, a second-generation television sight and automatic thermal target tracker, a laser range finder, an improved thermal night vision system and a dynamic cant angle indicator. The commander's station is fitted with a stabilised panoramic day and night sight. The integrated operating system includes advanced data communications and battle management. Tadiran developed the Merkava's communications system, the inter communication system and the VRC 120 vehicular transceiver radio with embedded auxiliary receivers
GD 883 V-12 DIESEL ENGINE
The Merkava 4 is powered by a V-12 diesel engine rated at 1,500hp. The engine compartment and one fuel tank are at the front of the tank and two fuel tanks are at the back. The new engine represents a 25% increase in power compared to the 1,200hp powerpack installed on the Merkava 3.
The German company MTU manufactures the engine components and the GD 883 engine is manufactured under licensed production by General Dynamics Land Systems in the USA. The engine is transferred to Israel for installation and integration with the automatic transmission and with the engine computer control system. The tank has automatic five-gear transmission rather than four gears as in the Merkava 3. The transmission system is manufactured by Renk. The single position rotary shock absorbers are installed externally.
The redesign of the hull around the installation of the new powerpack has provided improved frontal armour protection and improvement to the driver's field of view. For improved reverse driving the driver uses a camera.
A new feature of the tank is that the fitted modular special armour covers the turret. The tank is protected against a range of threats, including air launched precision guided missiles and advanced and top attack anti-tank weapons. Automatic fire detection and suppression has been installed. The underside of the hull has been fitted with additional armour protection against mines. The driver and crew compartments are equipped with heating and cooling air conditioning and a Shalon Chemical Industries combined individual and overpressure protection systems against contamination by NBC warfare
I did put Merkava Mk IV there but somehow it doesn't appear there. I think seven may be the max. limit for choices in a poll.
Max is 10.
That's strange :? :?
You see ALL of your options... look closely. Its at the bottom.
i saw a documentary on abram's in gulf war 91 in history channel
they interviewed its commanders and gunners.
one of the tank commander put the debacle at his best
" the Iraqi's T-72 is a formidable tank with fearsome arsenal,
but it is our training which won the battle, in the sense, having the best tank and don't knowing how to use won't help u in winning the war,
if we americans had t-72 and iraqi's had abrams , US would still have won the war because of US army training ideology."
another example history teaches can be found in WWII
german tigers VS allies Sherman.
tiger outguns, outarmors sherman in all aspects but it is the sherman's had the previlage to roll in berlin/paris victoriously.
all the tanks listed are very capable and the training and nimbleness and common sense of its commanders will lead them to victory,
What about the Arjun, its just as good as the leading heavy tanks. If you guys need info, just give me a shout cause I have many sources in my archives. BTW the Al-Khalid is a improved T-72, this can be found on Sinodefence.com which states...
This states that the T-90 Chinese version is the Al-Hhalid or MBT 2000. If you check the quote below....
This means the T-90 Chinese version/MBT 2000/Al khalid are equal to an T-72, but I suspect the Al khalid would have better equipment so it would be par to a improved T-72. This means this tank would be par with India's upgraded T-72M1, but does the Al Khalid have night vision? I also believe Iran's T-72 upgrade would make the tank as good as the Al Khalid plus I heard it would have Night Vision sensors/equipment. The Indian T-72M1 would carry NV, so would the T-90 and Arjun aswell. Chinese tanks in the other hand are all designed to be equal to a T-72, the latest T-99 is an enlarge T-72 which is designed to destroy the latest version of T-72 and probably be equal to the T-80UD.
Well post some specs on the Arjun, I heard that the Arjun program has been taking too long, costing too much for the Indian Army and will end up being a failure.
My point of view
Personally I don't think even India is focusing on the Arjun Program anymore. In February 2001, they signed a contract with Russia for 310
Do you have a source on that? All sites that say that are Americans propaganda websites, if you support that then you would also believe that Saudi Arabia is the MAIN sponsor of Islamic terrorism.
Anyways, here's some facts...
This source, says that Indian Army likes the Arjun, so your claim is very incorrect.
Go here tp see a comparison between other Western tanks. I shall ask this users for the source.
PS: I shall post more laters.
Like I told you, what you are saying is invalid, the Indian Army is happy with the Arjun. We are only getting 300 T-90S til the Arjuns would be selected. Anyways the Arjun is more superior then any Chinese tank and the Al khalid.
Arjun was a failure.
And Pakistan doesn't need to be worried from the T-90Ss. India got those to counter Pakistan's T-84s. But Pakistan also has Al-Zarrars and Al-Khalids now.
I say the next tank should be called Ghaznavi
Al-Zazzar is basically a T-55 upgrade, a tank that India is scrapping. Pakistan army most powerful tank is the T-84s, but I heard there was some problems getting these so they had to purchase the T-80U. If the Arjun are inducted the T-80UD would have to counter these cause its like a Leoperd 2 or a M1A2 class tank. The Al Khalid could be used against out T-72M1, if we purchase 2000+ Arjun then it would be a different story.
Pakistan Tank Inventory
India would have a Arjun MK2 which would have a 1500HP engine from France, and it would make the tank more effective then the 1400HP engine it currently has.
Info on Arjun
I finally found some info on Arjun:
ARJUN MK.I MAIN BATTLE TANK
Crew: 4 (Commander, Gunner, Loader & Driver).
Combat Weight: 58,500 kg (58.5 tonnes).
Power-to-Weight Ratio: 23.93 hp/ton.
Ground Pressure: 0.84 kg/cm2.
Length: 10.194 metres.
Width: 3.847 metres.
Height: 2.32 metres.
Ground Clearance: 0.45 metres.
Maximum Speed: 72 km/h (45 mph) - road.
.......................40 km/h (25 mph) - cross-country.
Maximum Range: Un-refuelled range in combat; 450 km (280 miles) - estimate.
Maximum Fuel Capacity: 1610 litres.
Slide Slope: 40%.
Vertical Obstacle: 0.9 metres.
Trench Crossing: 2.43 metres.
Shallow Fording: 1.4 metres.
Engine: Prototype variants are fitted with a MTU 838 Ka-501 (from Germany) 10-cylinder, liquid-cooled, diesel producing 1400 hp @ 2400 RPM. Production variants will reportedly be fitted with a locally-designed engine developing 1500 hp.
Transmission: Prototype variants have a semi-automatic transmission (from Germany) with 4 forward and 2 reverse gears. Renk Epicyclic with hydrodynamic torque converter. Production variants will have a locally designed semi-automatic transmission, hydrodynamic torque converter, retarder and integral system.
Suspension: Hydro-pneumatic. The aluminium alloy rubberised track blocks have rubber-bushed pins, the track tensioners have a built-in overload protection.
Steering: Double radii, mechanical steering with neutral turn.
Brakes: Hydraulically operated high performance disc brake that is incorporated into the final drive.
Electrical System: Not known.
Armament: 1 x 120mm rifle bore, electro-slag refined main gun with 39 rounds (HE, HEAT, HESH, APFSDS and smoke).
...............1 x 12.7mm anti-aircraft machine gun with 1000 rounds - estimate.
...............1 x 7.62mm co-axial machine gun with 3000* rounds - estimate.
Fire Control System: Bharat Electronics AL-4421 Mk.1B Digital FCS.
Turret Power Control: Electro-Hydraulic / Manual.
Gun Elevation/Depression: +20/-10Âº.
Gun Stabiliser: Vertical / Horizontal.
Rangefinder: Laser from Barr & Stroud Ltd., with a reported range of 10 km.
Smoke Grenade Launchers: Nine forward-firing smoke grenade discharges, mounted on either side of the turret, with the upper layer having five tubes and the lower layer having four.
Projected Variants: Engineer Tank
..........................Observation Post Vehicle
..........................Armoured Recovery Vehicle
..........................Air Defence (Gun or Missile)
..........................Armoured Vehicle Launched Bridge
Comments: In a written reply to Parliament on 07 March 2001, Defence Minister George Fernandes said the first batch of Arjun Mk.1 MBTs are to be delivered to the Army during 2003/04. This first batch, consisting of 125 tanks to be produced at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, will equip two to three armoured regiments. The government has allocated $425 million for the purpose and reportedly the first of these have been delivered to the 2nd Independent Armoured Brigade. The MoD was considering diverting a large number of the 125 Arjun chassis to its self-propelled (SP) 155mm howitzer program (Bhim) that underwent a successful second round of trials in the Rajasthan desert in 1999. The South African SP system was successfully in 1998 and the MoD wanted another round of trials before opening negotiations of 120 units. The Army ultimately wants an inventory of around 400 SP 155mm systems through local manufacture.
The Arjun has been plagued with technical problems with regards to the fire control system, which has reached its developmental limit. Engine overheating problems in desert conditions as well as poor operational mobility, due to its excessive weight and width are also some of the other pressing concerns. Transporting the Arjun has also proved to be a problem, as the 58-tonne tank protrudes 6cm beyond the permissible 3cm limit on either side of tank transporters used for India's current MBT, the T-72M1. The MoD has allocated $3.9 million to build three transporter types to move Arjun. The improved cooling pack, has limited ammunition-carrying capacity and obstructs gun depression towards the rear. The commander's periscope sight, laser warning sight and muzzle reference sight also need modification. A recent CAG (Comptroller & Auditor General) report stated that Arjun's imported content had risen from 27% to nearly 60% in the 15 pre-production series (PPS), substantially enhancing costs.
The Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE), responsible for developing the Arjun, as of mid-1998 built 32 tanks - 12 prototypes, 15 pre-production series, two torsion-bar versions, one test vehicle, one recovery tank and one Mk.II test vehicle. Officials involved with the project said a proposal to build around 40 tanks, enough to equip one regiment, before moving on to develop and produce an improved Arjun Mk.II was also under consideration. India was also looking for an engine to replace Arjun's 1400 hp MTU 838 after its German manufacturer recently amplified their price. Reportedly a locally-designed 1500 hp engine is under development. MoD sources said the additional cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support to serially produce two Arjun regiments over the next five years would ultimately push each MBT's cost to around US $4.7 to $5.3 million, reportedly far higher than the price for the T-90S MBT.
Features of the Arjun Mk.1 MBT
The integrated digital fire control system installed in the Arjun Mk.1 MBT consists of a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, thermal imaging night sight, meterological sensor, stabilised panoramic sight for the tank commander, stand-by (articulated) sighting telescope, GPS and an electronic gate to ensure a first round hit probability. The third generation director type, fire control system with a 120mm gun electronically slaved to the sights, enables the gunner to locate, identify, track, range and engage moving targets while its moving. This gives a high first round hit probability. The gunner's main sight consists of a day sight, thermal sight, laser rangefinder and stabilised head common, to all three channels. The common sighting head mirror is stabilised in elevation and azimuth. The day sight has dual magnification while the thermal imager provides a night vision facility to the gunner and the commander to observe and engage targets under conditions of total darkness and smoke. The laser rangefinder is integral with the gunner's sight.
The panoramic sight enables the commander to effect an all-round surveillance on the battlefield without moving his eyes from the sight and without being disturbed by the motion of the turret. The field of view is stabilised with the help of a two-axis rate gyro mounted on the platform of the head mirror. The sight has dual magnification. The ballistic computer, computes the gun laying data based on information provided by a number of sensors mounted in the vehicle and on manual inputs and provides the signals corresponding to the tangent elevation and azimuth offset. To increase the accuracy of the firing, the fire control system has a coincidence window that allows firing of the main armament only when it reaches the desired position as dictated by the computer. The 120mm rifled gun will fire APFSDS (Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot), HESH (High-Explosive Squash Head), HE (High-Explosive), HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) and smoke rounds. A special 120mm anti-helicopter round is under development as well. All 120mm rounds use a semi combustible cartridge case.
The 120mm rifled gun is made of ESR steel and is fitted with a thermal sleeve and a fume extractor. The thermal sleeve prevents irregular temperature distribution on to the tube due to the weather influences. A new high energy propellant is used in the 120mm rifled gun to give a higher muzzle velocity and therefore greater penetration characteristics. A 7.62mm machine gun is coaxial with the main armament and a 12.7mm AA machine gun is fitted for anti-aircraft defence. Production Arjun MBTs will also have a new composite laminate armour called Kanchan. This will be produced by Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MDNL). The tank also has a NBC (Nuclear-Biological-Chemical) system that is designed & built by BARC and a night vision device built by IRDE. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection & suppression system. Ammunition is also stowed in water tight containers to reduce the risk of fire.
LOL The funny thing is that even the Indian source that I got this info from admits the failures of the Arjun Program.
The Arjun costs even more then the far-superior Russian T-90S MBT.
Info and Pictures courtesy of www.bharat-rakshak.com
Its hard to have faith in third world projects like the Arjun.
Normally the tank guns are poorer than expected, the engines are either too weak or the tank is too poorly protected.
Pakistan Purchased 320 T-80U From the Ukranian Arsenal with an option for thermal visioning equipment from France. 80 Have Arrived while 240 are pending Production.
I think India should just buy the T-90S and call it a day .. But until now the 1,500 T-72 in inventory should suffice.
P.S- Nice Pictures
Sorry but from what I've heard,
India is going to get 124 of these Arjuns by 2005! $5m a piece! Do you know how many tanks are better than Arjun but have the same or less price?
By 2005, Pakistan would have like 300 Al-Khalid. Maybe even more.
Arjun is a failure. I don't know why Indians keep denying it.
There's no one tank that is best for every situation. Take Israel's Merkava for example. It's one of the heaviest tanks in the world because it's mostly used in urban enviroments. Theres no fear of it sinking or anything, and it's often used as a troop transport as well. It would be too heavy and slow for a country like Pakistan to use. Similar thing with the US Abrams, it's best enviroment is in the desert like Iraq, though(I think?) it was originally developed for use over open plains and woodlands. There are many places where despite its awesome firepower and mobility, it would not be the best tank for the job.
my vote for Abrams