There were trials before international courts for some of those responsible for the genocide in the Balkans
The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
It's also easy to forget or overlook the fact that nobody has a monopoly on war crimes; truth or righteousness. Nobody said Russia was an angel; merely that some of what it's being knocked for has also been performed by others.
One factor that should not be overlooked: The massive degradation of civilian infrastructure west of the river of Dnipro is also degrading infrastructure that Russia would rely on should they consider to re-invade west of the river. By inflicting damage that it will most likely take years to fix, this could indicate that Russia is abandoning plans for a re-invasion west of the river. Ina Holst-Pedersen Kvam on Twitter: / Twitter
No NATO commander was ever put on trial for attacks on Serbian critical infrastructure.
But discussing all of that here is moot in my opinion. The U.S. and NATO got away with it because they could. Might is right and whoever wins in Ukraine will get to write history books and decide what is right and what is wrong.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
war crime? War Crime is only determined by winners. That's why war crime can't be persecute by losser. Again this is dual target. That is what West saying when detroying some of Iraqis power and communication Infrastructure. Two wrongs does not make rights. However when west blaming Russia on attacking civilian infrastructure during military operation. It's not two wrong, it is simply hypocrites.
Perhaps the people in White House and Capitol hills don't see it as major escalation. Just simply another consequences of war, especially war of attrition.
Perhaps those who think that this world will always be "unipolar world" dominated by US and Collective west is the naive ones.
I agree and I wasn't being selective per see; merely being too lazy to list out each and every example. Ultimately there is self interests at play; the powers that be; the countries that have the power of veto at the UN; the international community, etc, will continue to be very selective with prosecuting war crimes and will also be highly selective with human rights; democracy; the rules based order, etc.
With the all the self interests; double standards and hypocrisy at play is it a wonder that the world's in the mess it's in?
Norway announced today that Norway will contribute NOK 150 million (USD 15 million) to the "EU Military Training Assistance", which initially aims at training 15,000 Ukranian soldiers. This training effort is in addition to the UK-led training, which Norway already is supporting with trainers and financing, as well as a separate NATO effort, also supported by Norway.
Norway is also financing parts of an Estonian donation of a field hospital to Ukraine, as well as donating five military ambulance buses.
www.regjeringen.no
Another proof that Norway is in this for the long haul.
Norway is also financing parts of an Estonian donation of a field hospital to Ukraine, as well as donating five military ambulance buses.
Norway supports the EU Military Assistance Mission for Ukraine with approximately NOK 150 million
The EU has established a training mission for the training of Ukrainian soldiers. Norway will provide approximately NOK 150 million in support to this initiative.
www.regjeringen.no
Another proof that Norway is in this for the long haul.
The horrors of this war. Warning, graphic movie.
The thread starter Tom Warner believes that the Russian soldiers shown are suffering from moderate to severe hypothermia, when the body stops shivering and the mind goes into a stupor or even shuts down. Night temperatures had been in the mid-high 30s F / 0-4 C. They are probably also sleep deprived.
Tom Warner concludes: "Today's Russian soldiers die like blind worms in a pit out of their commanders' sheer incompetence and their own failure to take responsibility for their own fates, achieving absolutely nothing." I agree with the first part of this sentence -- not sure about the latter part. How can they "take responsibility for their own fates" if they are shot by their fellow soldiers for trying to do so? What options do these poor soldiers have?
Another example of the horrors of this war: Russian attack on a maternity ward, killing a new-born baby. The woman and the doctor survived.
I almost started crying when watching these movies. So sad.
The thread starter Tom Warner believes that the Russian soldiers shown are suffering from moderate to severe hypothermia, when the body stops shivering and the mind goes into a stupor or even shuts down. Night temperatures had been in the mid-high 30s F / 0-4 C. They are probably also sleep deprived.
Tom Warner concludes: "Today's Russian soldiers die like blind worms in a pit out of their commanders' sheer incompetence and their own failure to take responsibility for their own fates, achieving absolutely nothing." I agree with the first part of this sentence -- not sure about the latter part. How can they "take responsibility for their own fates" if they are shot by their fellow soldiers for trying to do so? What options do these poor soldiers have?
Another example of the horrors of this war: Russian attack on a maternity ward, killing a new-born baby. The woman and the doctor survived.
I almost started crying when watching these movies. So sad.
Political advocacy by going off topic
We can watch this movie almost daily and again and again for the past 50 years.
Link deleted
@sdin What has this to do with the thread? It could also be regarded as political. This is a defence forum, not a political forum. Please remember that. Refer too the rules and stay on topic.
Ngatimozart.
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Belgrade is the capital of Serbia. Serbia was one side in the war. There were legitimate military targets in Belgrade. That doesn't mean that everything hit was a legitimate military target, but you can't claim that any attack on Belgrade was a war crime.
Sometimes the wrong things are targeted, because of faulty intelligence. Sometimes a munition misses its target & hits something else, e.g. the Dragiša Mišović hospital, which was hit by missiles intended to hit the nearby barracks in Dedinje.
And the Serbian government doesn't claim "thousand of civilians killed in the attack of infra's in Belgrade". It claims between 1200 & 2500 civilians killed by bombing in all of Serbia. Why do you think the Serbian government is lying?
BTW, some of the civilians killed were ethnic Albanians in districts bordering Kosovo, hit by mistake.
Whats your personal opinion on energy and water infrastructure; are they legitimate targets in your view if it can be proven that it's civilians rather than than the military which will and do suffer?
Also, if say an AA gun was placed on the roof of an occupied flat that constitutes a war crime. If however the other side targets that AA gun knowing the flat is occupied; is it a war crime?
What about sanctions? If it's realised from the onset that sanctions will have greater adverse consequences for ordinary people rather than the military or the political leadership but are still put in place because it's politically expedient and because there's nothing else that can be done; is it not technically a war crime?
I remember that. If memory serves they were hit by CBUs. There was a famous pic of dead civilians around their cart.
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Political advocacy by going off topic
Apologies. In the interest of fairness, your off-topic links are also deleted
Indeed but we're really veering off topic now.
On the Ukraine war there was an incident where Ukrainian troops allegedly gunned down Russian troops [or Orcs as the Ukrainians call them] after they had surrendered. We can never called never condone such acts irrespective of who perpetrates them but who's to say that one of the Ukrainians involved hadn't lost relatives in a Russian air/missile strike?
On another matter I wished I kept the link but there was a report today of a HARM which malfunctioned and hit an occupied house/building.
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N.A.T.O got away with it seriously ! Serbia was involved in mass executions of civilians up close a very deliberate ethnic cleansing not seen in Europe since W.W.2 may I ask your background to understand where your views come from?
Just to add some clarity war crime are prosecuted by the International court in the Hague under the Rome convention signed by sixty countries in 1960 .there have atrocities from both sides the incident discussed by Ukrainian troops ,their government has said they will investigate I'm not aware of similar accusations against Russian being investigated
Ananda
The Bunker Group
This is satellite pictures of Ukraine electricity situation recently. Practically only Crimea that still have more or less similar electricity grid as before the war. However this is not war crime on the destruction of Ukraine power grid. This is part of what to be expected on war of attrition that already run for more than 7 months.
In fact what to be unexpected is why Russian has not done it earlier. Perhaps because Russian military leadership before has too much believe it is going to be easy win. Perhaps the more appropriate say is Russian finally admitted this is already long protected grinding attrition war, rather then Putin administration call limited special military operation.
So there's war crime, and there's war consequences. Destruction of civilian targets is part of war consequences. Something that being done by every parties conducting war, including the democratic west.
War crimes more likely prosecuted by winners and being put more and more as Political tools for any sides toward the other sides. It can not be prosecuted toward the highest level, unless the other sides are loosing and capitulate. Which why personally I'm very 'cynical' toward any war crimes accusations. This's already become more and more just another Political tools from one side to another. Even UN tribunal on war crimes including is already part of tools to whoever sides that in control on UN lobby.
There is much difference between war crimes and war consequences. The boundaries between war consequences and war crimes continue being blurred by Political interest of each parties directly or indirectly involved. Which is why sadly it is loosing any meaningful meaning, aside as become Political tools on each sides using. Again only been done mostly to those poor 'blokes' that conduct field operation and (mostly) those that getting cought. Will not happen to decision makers, unless they are already on loosing and capitulate sides.
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Just for clarification definitions of war crimes investigated by the I.C.C is the grave breaches of the Geneva convention that have been signed by both Russia and Ukraine ,very definitely there have been breaches of the Geneva convention without justification ,there was a court ruling from the I.C.C back in march ordering Russia to stop its invasion stating it had seen no evidence of genocide as a reason to invade by Russia and did not believe Russia ,infected Russia did not attend the court but claimed its actions were in self defence in a letter to the U.N secretary General ,Russia vetoed a U.N resolution against it
Ukraine has released a headcam footage showing their perspective.
Ignore the first and last scene, as far as I can tell they aren't related to the actual events.
BBC has compared the videos and concluded that the drone video and the headcam video are of the same event.
The sequence of events from the headcam
- Ukrainian forces cornered a group of Russian soldiers to a shed.
- One Ukrainian soldier approached the shed. We can see several presumably surrendering Russian soldiers prone on the ground.
- One by one, three more Russian soldiers came out from the shed, hands up, and laid down.
- One Russian soldier stepped out from behind the shed's wall and immediately opened fire with his assault rifle on full auto.
- The camera immediately drops to the ground. Impossible to tell why.
Neither the drone footage nor the headcam footage show the full firefight. We don't know how many casualties the Ukrainians took. We do not know whether the rest of the Russians kept prone or if they tried to use the moment to regain their weapons or run away. But it was very clear that this is not a straightforward surrender and the Russian soldier opened fire first during a surrender, therefore violating the usual surrender protocol.
This is not Ukrainian soldiers taking revenge for a relative lost in an air strike. This is a Russian soldier opening fire at Ukrainian troops. It can be argued that the lone Russian soldier was a rogue while the rest of his platoon really meant to surrender, but right now we do not know that.
War crimes are defined under the Geneva conventions, Russia is a signatory to this ,readers here can judge for themself if war crimes have occurred and by who
War Crimes And Breach of Geneva Convention - Advocatetanmoy Law Library
Not aimed at anyone in particular. Discussion of historic allegations of war crimes in conflicts other than the Russo - Ukraine War are not relevant to this thread and should not be entered into here. It serves no use.
War crimes are an evil that should not be tolerated, no matter who is the alleged perpetrator. No nation is squeaky clean in this regard and people should remember that, before they go slinging allegations around with a holier than thou attitude.
War crimes are an evil that should not be tolerated, no matter who is the alleged perpetrator. No nation is squeaky clean in this regard and people should remember that, before they go slinging allegations around with a holier than thou attitude.
GermanHerman
Active Member
There have been at least three Videos of ukrainian soldiers killing multiple russian POWs released in the Last couple of days that I'm aware of.
We also saw the same kind of footage months ago when russian forces retreating from kyiv where ambushed, taken prisoner and subsequently executed by members of the georgian legion and later the famous knee capping and execution video from kharkiv.
There have been even more gruesome videos from russian troops including those from Mariupol and I think it is safe to asume these atrocities are happening far more often then we get to see them.
I dont realy see where your arguments leads given the unfortunate amount of this kind of footage we now have. In general I dont think there is much to be gained by arguing over single instances of war crimes and trying to whitewash them retrospect as this type of crimes are part of every war.