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Should the Federal Goverment reintroduce the death penalty for terrorism?

Discussion in 'Intros & Off Topic' started by t68, Nov 25, 2018.

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  1. t68

    t68 Well-Known Member

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    I have been thinking for some time about the instances of terrorist acts committed in Australia and wonder if these acts should come under treason and most specifically The Security Legislation Amendment (Terrorism) Act 2002 (the Act),

    https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentar...ees?url=pjcis/securityleg/report/chapter4.pdf


    They replaced the death penalty under the Crimes Act of 1914, since the acts are parts of retribution for our involvement in the Middle East and elsewhere I belive the federal government should re-introduce the death penalty for such instance against the indiscriminate targeting of non-combants under treason as a majority of these terrorist have Australian citizenship.


    I’m sick and tired of the prices of $hits commuting these treasons acts then using the same laws they appear to reject to get them sentenced in Gaol at our expense for the time they are incarcerated.
     
  2. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Where do you draw the line with capital punishment? Treason? Terrorism? Murder? Rape? Kiddy fiddling? More to the point, what if you get it wrong and the accused is innocent? Bit hard to do a Lazarus if they is dead. Also lets be brutally honest, historically speaking Aussie cop forces don't exactly have squeaky clean corruption free records do they? So whilst there is will always be the risk, however low, of someone being fitted up, the public perception will be higher because of prior form.

    Executing a terrorist just creates another martyr for other idiots to emulate, so it achieves no purpose whatsoever. Of course you could make a statement by including such practices that would preclude said martyr from reaching "paradise" in the afterlife during said execution and burial, and live broadcasting such, but that would create moral repugnation within the domestic population which would be reflected in the ballot box, i.e., political suicide.

    There are more ways of killing an alley cat than stuffing its backside full of cream buns.
     
  3. t68

    t68 Well-Known Member

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    Would I like to see the death penalty for things you listed, sure I would if it’s proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

    But what I’m suggesting here is that of treason by Australian citizen/residents and those that come here via refugee program, and commits murder in the name of a foreign state or terrorist organisation.

    According to the Daily Telegraph, keeping serial killer Ivan Milat behind bars at Goulburn Supermax cost NSW taxpayers $824 a day in 2009, why should we taxpayer continue paying for these lowlifes that have no respect for our values and choose to murder non- combatants.
     
  4. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    Doesn't matter. Under current CoA Law you have other options of dealing with them, like deportation after completion of sentence. You can revoke their citizenship or residency on character grounds if they weren't born in Australia or their birth wasn't registered within Australia. Just ask a lot of Kiwis deported on spurious character grounds. I am not really a fan of the death penalty because it is to final and if there is a miscarriage of justice, its far to late to do anything about it.

    I look at the US where some States are a tad enthusiastic about the death penalty and it hasn't solved anything, nor appears to act as a deterrent. The second thing that I notice there is that the execution methodology is what some would claim to be cruel with the sentence taking decades before it is carried due to the drawn out legal process with just about every man and his dog able to appeal against a seat sentence. My own view is that the UK and NZ systems were better. I presume that the Australian system was similar.
     
  5. malleboy

    malleboy New Member

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    My understanding is that in the US it is more expensive to execute than to jail someone for a lifetime. The number of legal hurdles, appeals etc make execution very expensive.

    It my be wrong but sometimes I feel like our jails are like luxury radicalization suites, we pamper them with luxurious prisons and allow them to be further radicalized. Really I think we have to have effective deradicalization program for Australian only citizens, it can be done but it needs to be done properly. Every other options I can think of runs into hurdles. We can expel dual national and revoke our citizenship, but we cannot leave someone stateless, so Australian citizen only offenders cannot be removed. (We could make deal to have a more ruthless state (that doesn't run luxury prisons) grant them citizenship and deport them there, but I'm sure that wold break some international treaty)
     
  6. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    A piece of reusable rope to off terrorists seems preferable to spending $824 a day to keep them in storage for the rest of lives considering our budget pressures.
     
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  7. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    The legal expenses likely are more expensive for certain states in the US. This is to be expected for a country that produces more lawyers per year than scientists and engineers. It seems word sue follows every mishap or transaction in the US.
     
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  8. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    I am a supporter of capital punishment. For me the difficulty lies in the implementation from the bench. I'll give a couple of well known Australian examples where public outrage led to calls for the re-introduction of the death penalty.

    In 1980 baby Azaria Chamberlain went missing from a campsite at Ayers Rock in Central Australia. Mother Lindy Chamberlain claimed a dingo took her baby. Lindy was convicted of murder. It was a story that divided the nation. In 1986 Lindy Chamberlain was freed after new evidence substantiating her story was discovered.

    In Lindy Chamberlains case I would not impose the death penalty as in my non-legal opinion there was a tiny doubt that she was guilty.

    In another case, that of David Birnie the story is different. David Birnie was convicted of the abduction and rape and murder of four women in 1986. David Birnie made home videos of the rapes and torture of his victims, self-supplied evidence. David Birnie peaded guilty and led police to the graves of his victims.

    In this case there was no doubt about guilt. I would impose the death penalty.

    Once again, for me the opportunity for the bench to award the death penalty should exist, with the caveat that irrefutable evidence of guilt must exist. Exactly how the bench determines that benchmark is problematical.
     
  9. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    We have a case in my hometown where a terrorist who's name I will speak killed 50 people two weeks ago. He even supplied the video evidence to convict him beyond reasonable doubt. There have been calls for the death sentence to be reestablished here after the Christchurch attack, but I say no to those calls for the reasons I have given above, plus in this particular case we'd turn the mongrel into a martyr for the rest of those mongrels who have the same sick depraved views that he holds.

    Just to make one thing clear, I am no liberal lefty softy, however in my mind the death penalty achieves nothing except keeping the local undertaker in business. I don't believe in crims sitting in prison either watching tv etc., when they can be working hard to pay off their debt to society, so in my mind they should be gainfully employed whilst in prison. However some crims are beyond redemption as is the terrorist who shall not be named.

    He is kept in isolation with no outside contact, no newspapers, radio, tv, books, phones, visitors, nothing except a small concrete cell, a dunny, bed and hand basin. A 3 m x 2.5 m concrete walled room and no human contact except of the guards and whoever puts your food through the slot under your door three times a day. By all accounts the food is pretty rough. Nothing to distract you from the situation that you are in. The local criminal gangs have taken severe umbrage at what he has done, so for the rest of his life, that is how he will have to be held, because the gangs are out to kill him any way they can.
     
  10. seaspear

    seaspear Member

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    There is also Anders Behring of the massacre in Norway who appealed in court over his lack of human rights and won over his solitary confinement
     
  11. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    Although I understand some anti-death penalty views, I simply don’t understand why any taxpayer would want to spend millions of dollars storing scum for decades. Add in the more than likely possibility some bleeding heart liberal will demand parole at some point, I say hang him high, no pussyfooting lethal injection that comprises a physician’s Hippocratic oath.
     
  12. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    No need to mention that mongrels name either. That's a different jurisdiction.
     
  13. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    No probs. On the top right hand corner, there is a feature call the inbox that's where all you private messages will be. If you want to private message a particular member, just click on their profile on the left hand side of the threads and then click on start a conversation. Hope this helps.
     
  14. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    Hmmm...on my top right I have "traveller" but no inbox. I must have the 'export' version of this site ;)
     
  15. t68

    t68 Well-Known Member

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    Hi mate

    If you want to private message someone, click on the person avatar and a box will appear that say’s “START CONVERSATIONS” then write your message

    If you want to check your PM’s click on your username top right a drop box will appear and click on conversations
     
  16. Traveller

    Traveller Member

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    Cheers t68.... and thankyou for volunteering to test my messaging skills :)
     
  17. Rob c

    Rob c Active Member

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    It may seem to be a cheap option to apply the death penalty over life in prison but it is not. The appeals process needed to make sure that you get it right is very expensive, costing multi millions of dollars and taking up a large amount of court time. As I stated in a post on another topic, it was calculated that the appeal process for the last Australian executed cost so much that they could have kept him in prison for 1000 years with change left over. In NZ the Bain case (not a death penalty case) the cost to the crown of an just one appeal to the privy council and retrial cost $3,500,000. A death penalty case would be multiple times this.
     
  18. ngatimozart

    ngatimozart Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    I don't know @Rob c I read about one of the last UK capital cases where the execution happened within months of the sentence being delivered and that included an appeal. Can't remember the case. Back when we did have capital punishment, we didn't have a long convoluted appeals process. Maybe one or two appeals at the most. We could always go back to precolonial ways when us Maori had a different system which was relatively quick and efficient. Probably put the legal profession out of business though. :cool:

    The Bain case and the Teina Pora especially the Pora case, do create significant doubt about capital punishment, but also the cost that miscarriages of justice can cause. In Bain's case, he was eventually found not guilty of the murders of his family in a retrial 15 years after the murders, that was granted only after the Privy Council in London found that there was a significant miscarriage of justice. In Pora's case when he was 17, he voluntarily confessed to a murder (1992) that he did not commit and was sentenced to life imprisonment. He appealed his conviction in 2000 after the semen found in the victim belong to a serial rapist, Malcolm Rewa (aged 66), who was convicted of her rape in 1999 but not her murder despite two trials because Pora was still in prison due to his conviction. The Court of Appeal ordered a retrial and Pora was again found guilty because of his confession despite no forensic evidence linking him to the scene. In 2014 the Privy Council in London quashed Pora's conviction. However Rewa's third trial held recently found him guilty and since he already has serving a sentence of preventative detention with a minimum of 22 years without parole, the judge has stated that it is up to the parole board whether or not Rewa will ever be released from jail.

    Both cases illustrate the costs both in human and financial terms. If capital punishment still existed in NZ, both Bain and Pora would've met the hangman and whilst their subsequent appeals may not have progressed in they way they did, a greater miscarriage of justice would've occurred because both men would've been long dead. Secondly, the legal costs alone incurred by the NZG in these two cases will have been well into the millions, plus the restitution payout to Pora which was $2.5 million. That's just two cases, Arthur Allen Thomas was wrongfully convicted of the Crewe murders back in 1973 after being stitched up by the police, which cost him his farm and marriage, and after his appeals were eventually successful, the NZG had to fork out $900,000 which was a significant amount back then (1980s).

    I prefer the system that we have at the moment. It is not perfect, but it is not an absolute like capital punishment is, so does allow for mistakes to be more easily rectified to the aggrieved party. Yes there are costs to both systems, but some costs are more bearable than others.
     
  19. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    No doubt numerous false convictions around the world have pretty much made any moves to restore the death penalty next to impossible. Still, some crimes deserve the death penalty and in cases where video, forensic, and eye witness evidence are all present, the option should be there.
     
  20. Rob c

    Rob c Active Member

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    Them times have changed a bit. By the sixties the appeal process in the british type law countries had extended to two to three years and now we have the Yanks have it into the decades. I recently remember a small mention in my paper of someone in the States being executed after 33 years post conviction. This struck me as absolutely pointless, but then the yanks do like to have the biggest or longest of everything. The Morior custom is not to cause any death (except your own if you do some mad thing which the young men did to prove themselves) this comes from my wife and kids culture. If someone did cause a death they were banished and sutch was the strength of their mana that they would simply go away and die. Maori when they went to the Chathams could not believe how the Morior would if their mana was broken, simply die.
    Get everyone onboard with this would save a hell of a lot of problems.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019