S.Korea, Indonesia to develop 4.5 gen fighter aircraft KFX

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thank you for sharing!
In a statement addressing the controversy, DAPA said that “the Indonesians have expressed their commitment to continued participation in the KF-X development program” and
I just wonder when they had expressed that commitment. During the last meeting/negotiations, or many years ago?

Edit.
Well said @Ananda , ive nothing more to add.
 
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Ahmad

Active Member
Thank you for sharing!

I just wonder when they had expressed that commitment. During the last meeting/negotiations, or many years ago?

Edit.
Well said @Ananda , ive nothing more to add.
Something that is substantial is that we " look like" has paid this February payment (first payment in this year), that amount is not small. If we dont pay, there will likely be another news saying we missed the payment like happening in previous years. The recent one is when we didnt pay in September 2020 for late year payment that also become a news in Korea and later our mainstream media also reported it.

Oya, thank you @Ananda for responding on my post quite comprehensively despite I still dont agree on some of your points there.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
thank you @Ananda for responding on my post quite comprehensively despite I still dont agree on some of your points there.
Well I know you seems still cling on your opinion that DI have some kind of ownership part of IFX IP or DI has huge contribution on early stage of design work. While I don't see that, as I see IP is wholly owned by KAI and DI's work in design is only part of overall work under control and ownership of KAI

Perhaps you believe with your DI source, but I have more faith from Bapenas source. In the end the final recommendation that come to President come from Bapenas, not MinDef, not SOE Ministry and certainly not from DI. The public decision can come out from MinDef or State Secretary (Sekneg), however it will be based on Bapenas recommendation.
But then again is your rights to cling on to your believe.

Still the main point I make, it's useless to read what South Korean sources or Media on Indonesian position with continuation on the project. Again the decision and the ball is in Indonesian side. Unless there's official position from Indonesian side on continuation in project come out, all including sources from South Korea still part of speculation. If they (this administration) are already continue the payment, they will talk that in Media. They're already talk in public all the continuation including payment will be hold until negotiations results come to conclusions. Thus it's their call, and not Korean side on matter of continuation of Indonesian payment.

The only that matter on the news from Korean side on this ROK-Indonesia co-op KFX saga, if ROK decided unilaterally to drop/kick out Indonesia from partnership. As that's in Korean rights.
 
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Ahmad

Active Member
Well I know you seems still cling on your opinion that DI have some kind of ownership part of IFX IP or DI has huge contribution on early stage of design work. While I don't see that, as I see IP is wholly owned by KAI and DI's work in design is only part of overall work under control and ownership of KAI

Perhaps you believe with your DI source, but I have more faith from Bapenas source. In the end the final recommendation that come to President come from Bapenas, not MinDef, not SOE Ministry and certainly not from DI. The public decision can come out from MinDef or State Secretary (Sekneg), however it will be based on Bapenas recommendation.
But then again is your rights to cling on to your believe.

Still the main point I make, it's useless to read what South Korean sources or Media on Indonesian position with continuation on the project. Again the decision and the ball is in Indonesian side. Unless there's official position from Indonesian side on continuation in project come out, all including sources from South Korea still part of speculation. If they (this administration) are already continue the payment, they will talk that in Media. They're already talk in public all the continuation including payment will be hold until negotiations results come to conclusions. Thus it's their call, and not Korean side on matter of continuation of Indonesian payment.

The only that matter on the news from Korean side on this ROK-Indonesia co-op KFX saga, if ROK decided unilaterally to drop/kick out Indonesia from partnership. As that's in Korean rights.
Yup about payment matter, I didnt interpret the statement correctly. That was the previous payment that Indonesia has already paid which is the latest was in January 2019.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
On the third photo we can see the tail of an Indonesian KT-1B. Is that KT-1B under heavy maintenance at KAI, or did TNI-AU order additional
According to latest Flight International World Air Force edition, TNI-AU do order some additional KT-1B. Heard also from local media. Seems this's attrition replacement.

You can up loaded from their site, it's free. Try to attached that, but seems too big.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
According to latest Flight International World Air Force edition, TNI-AU do order some additional KT-1B. Heard also from local media. Seems this's attrition replacement.

You can up loaded from their site, it's free. Try to attached that, but seems too big.
Thank you.
Attrition replacement...we lost at least three because of unnecessary activities. Such a waste...

Update....the latest attempt to keep Indonesia in this project.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
According to this article, the ministry of defence claims it is still participating in the KF-X program.
As far as i know the IPTN-staff is still in Indonesia and the government hasnt paid yet, so it it can be true or standard political nonsense.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
CNBC Indonesia is known for their "click bait" tactics. I put LOL on my response in your post, as this's a nothing changes position, but they flip it as big news.

That's why I have more faith on media accuracy and professionalism with Tempo and sometimes with Kompas. CNBC Indonesia and CNN Indonesia both own by large group, that we know have Political agenda. As skewed in Political issue CNN and CNBC, it's still much better then their "franchise" namesake in Indonesia.
 

Ahmad

Active Member
Just focus on the quote statement by Mindef spoke person saying that the renegotiation is still continuing. That is the position now........

We will see who will attend the roll out ceremony. Parliament will be invited as well, so we can see whether parliament will back the program as well or not ?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Not only that, the Yonhap quoting non official Indonesian MinDef source. This's the result when their official meet Prabowo's recently. So far no official sources says Prabowo's will come.

The sensitivity of Indonesian continues participation on the program in my opinion is already too much. Officially they still saying it's still under negotiations. This administration should put decision whether 'in' or 'out'. It is already hanging too long. I do hope the decision will coincide with current Fighters choice. I can only smack my face if until that time, they also not making concrete decision.

They also only so far only build empty building in DI, which being said (by DI Mgt) as for IFX assembly facility. this unlike Submarine facilities that being build with assembly and manufacturing equipment inside.

How hard it is just to make decisions ? :rolleyes:
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Not only that, the Yonhap quoting non official Indonesian MinDef source. This's the result when their official meet Prabowo's recently. So far no official sources says Prabowo's will come.

The sensitivity of Indonesian continues participation on the program in my opinion is already too much. Officially they still saying it's still under negotiations. This administration should put decision whether 'in' or 'out'. It is already hanging too long. I do hope the decision will coincide with current Fighters choice. I can only smack my face if until that time, they also not making concrete decision.

They also only so far only build empty building in DI, which being said (by DI Mgt) as for IFX assembly facility. this unlike Submarine facilities that being build with assembly and manufacturing equipment inside.

How hard it is just to make decisions ? :rolleyes:
Yes, the Indonesian government can not pretend forever that they maybe want to continue with the KF-X project. It will only damage more our image and will also cause irritation for both IPTN/DI and KAI.
I believe that the current administration want to exit this 'SBY-project', but they do not know how and they are also not able to come with an alternative solution (licence production of KF-X, or T-50i or just completely cut ties with KAI).

But from i understand, the rollout will be on 2021-4-9.
 

Attachments

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I still don't see any confirmation from Indonesia media or official MinDef that Prabowo's will come to South Korea to attend KFX first prototype llaunch. So far the hype on Indonesian enthusiasts only from Yonhap based information.

MinDef usually shown official confirmation when Prabowo's will going abroad and for what purpose. ROK hoping to get meeting with Prabowo's not only for talk of continuation Indonesia-ROK defense projects (like KFX/IFX and DSME 1400), but also cause Prabowo's just sign agreement with Japan. They don't want to miss out defense projects toward their regional competitor.

Anyway let's see how this turn out. So far I read Korean comment in their on line forum like Bemil Chosun, the talk now that Indonesia wants not only reduce financial commitment but also want ROK/KAI credit line for financing IFX line in DI facility. If that's true either ROK desperate for partner or Indonesia just adding demands to make it just more rediculous.

Either way, there's still no info yet from Indonesian sources on how Indonesia renegotiations position stand now. Still hanging position.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

I still don't see any confirmation from Indonesia media or official MinDef that Prabowo's will come to South Korea to attend KFX first prototype llaunch. So far the hype on Indonesian enthusiasts only from Yonhap based information.

MinDef usually shown official confirmation when Prabowo's will going abroad and for what purpose. ROK hoping to get meeting with Prabowo's not only for talk of continuation Indonesia-ROK defense projects (like KFX/IFX and DSME 1400), but also cause Prabowo's just sign agreement with Japan. They don't want to miss out defense projects toward their regional competitor.

Anyway let's see how this turn out. So far I read Korean comment in their on line forum like Bemil Chosun, the talk now that Indonesia wants not only reduce financial commitment but also want ROK/KAI credit line for financing IFX line in DI facility. If that's true either ROK desperate for partner or Indonesia just adding demands to make it just more rediculous.

Either way, there's still no info yet from Indonesian sources on how Indonesia renegotiations position stand now. Still hanging position.
Well....i dont know how reliable this site is, but according to this report, he is already on the way to Gingsengland.


And today in Korean Times:
| Accompanied by some 20 officials, Prabowo is set to arrive in South Korea on Wednesday aboard a private plane to attend the KF-X fighter jet rollout event, expected to be held sometime this week, according to diplomatic and defense industry sources. |
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
dont know how reliable this site is, but according to this report, he is already on the way to Gingsengland.
Well good. I don't know if he's coming will give definite decision or not. Just give decision, in or out. It's just rediculous that they're hanging the decision this far out.

If we stay in the program, hopefully no one in Indonesia Political circle will mess it up again on talking not having full access on KFX Tech. For crying out loud, be realistic on Junior Partner position. This's not the same as IPTN-CASA situation with CN-235. Whatever position that DI will have on KRX/IFX project is always under supervision of KAI. Junior Partner position will not that much difference than Under License agreement.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Well good. I don't know if he's coming will give definite decision or not. Just give decision, in or out. It's just rediculous that they're hanging the decision this far out.

If we stay in the program, hopefully no one in Indonesia Political circle will mess it up again on talking not having full access on KFX Tech. For crying out loud, be realistic on Junior Partner position. This's not the same as IPTN-CASA situation with CN-235. Whatever position that DI will have on KRX/IFX project is always under supervision of KAI. Junior Partner position will not that much difference than Under License agreement.
Hope for the best, but expect four years of more disappointments.

I dont know if its already posted here, but KAI aims to set the price of KF-X fighter at $65 million with minimized maintenance costs. ....with or without our participation.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I'm going to play devil advocate a bit ;)


If there're still reluctancies from Jokowi's administration, they could come out to ROK to switch involvement with KAI from KFX into this new Turboprop Cargo Plane. DI in the process to modified CN235 into Turboprop Airliner N245. Working out with this project will also could be more beneficial rather than try to work out larger turboprop airliner like that R80.

Well working on this with KAI, DI (or can add that Regio Aviasi) to work as 50:50 JV. Just like wheb IPTN-CASA used to do in CN-235. KAI has lot of ambitions, but they are not actually in cash rich position, and so does ROK. More importantly DI can come out as equal partnership due their experience in Turboprop Airliners.

It can be a way out for Indonesia, if this administration still reluctance with continuing in KFX.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
I'm going to play devil advocate a bit ;)


If there're still reluctancies from Jokowi's administration, they could come out to ROK to switch involvement with KAI from KFX into this new Turboprop Cargo Plane. DI in the process to modified CN235 into Turboprop Airliner N245. Working out with this project will also could be more beneficial rather than try to work out larger turboprop airliner like that R80.

Well working on this with KAI, DI (or can add that Regio Aviasi) to work as 50:50 JV. Just like wheb IPTN-CASA used to do in CN-235. KAI has lot of ambitions, but they are not actually in cash rich position, and so does ROK. More importantly DI can come out as equal partnership due their experience in Turboprop Airliners.

It can be a way out for Indonesia, if this administration still reluctance with continuing in KFX.
I wonder what kind of aircraft they plan to design, something like the N245, or something bigger between the C-27 and C-130?


|" Indonesia is defaulting on a deal with South Korea to build fighter jets, sitting on its contribution to the project worth at least 8 trillion won ($7.1 billion), but Seoul is confident that it could manage the undertaking without the Southeast Asian country. "|
That's not a surprise.


|" Indonesia has not elaborated on the cutback. The local economy, now reeling from COVID-19 fallout, is reportedly among the reasons. "|
The refusal to pay after the first millions, started long before this whole Covid-19 madness.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
At least Korean officials (in that Korean Herald you're putting) are more blatant in media talk all possibility still there including Indonesian withdrawal. Before they are more diplomatic on that issue. This's if we read between the lines, acknowledgement that it's more just matter of financial.

Anyway only got this from local media on Prabowo's meeting in Korea. He's talking with Korean DAPA. Clearly shown he's in more discussion on how to resolve this.

 
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