Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

Feanor

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Staff member
Update.

There is unconfirmed information that Russia is reorganizing the defense industry internally with the factories and design bureaus associated with artillery no longer being an organic part of UVZ.


An updated T-90M variant with the K-5 tiles on the roof and Relikt on the sides have been re-arranged to improve coverage. The question of why this wasn't to begin with of course remains hanging. Overall this is a very modest change after such heavy fighting. Either the T-90M has shown itself well under current conditions with no obvious improvements to be made or Russian defense industry isn't up to the job. It's likely a combination of the two factors.


Another BMP-3 batch ships. Note the videos provided raise questions. They're well designed videos but they also show the vehicles very clearly. And we don't see any of the additional armor mounts that are typical of the BMP-3Ms that we saw in production pre-war. Has Kurganmash reverted to BMP-3s without the extra armor mounting points? Or is the footage old? In which case, did a delivery even take place?


Russian BMP-3 production lines at Kurganmash.


A T-72B3 mod'22 (or B1 mod'22?) at the victory day parade in Yekaterinburg. It has the new thermal sight, but not the Sosna-U FCS upgrade. It also has expanded ERA coverage on the rear of the tank.


The 163rd Armor Repair Plant reportedly repaired a record quantity of BMP-2s. The number includes a mix of damaged vehicles from the war and vehicles pulled from storage which makes sense. No total figure is provided but the claim is highly credible.


A production facility for the Zemledelie remote-minelayer. It's a 122mm caliber MLRS but that only fires land mines. It's a sad reminder that Russia can produce packet-reloadable 122mm MLRS but doesn't, instead producing the Tornado-G, while engineer units get a unique 122mm system that only lays mines.


A look at AMZ, the production facility for BTR-82As and Tigr armored cars. Note during this war Russia delivered a batch of BTR-82As and BREM-K ARVs to Belarus despite losses of the type in Ukraine. In general AMZ can put out 800+ armored vehicles per year, and I wouldn't be surprised to see production hit 1000+ vehicles with bottlenecks coming primarily from subcontractors for things like turrets, engines, and comms. For all their limitations, a BTR-82A remains a capable and relevant vehicle in the current conflict, much better then many others fielded by both sides.


After 14 months of war, the Russian MoD has finally deployed a modern IFAK. What Russia had previously was woefully inadequate. Recon and SpN typically purchased their own to supplement, and regular units often depended on volunteer aid to provide.


A look at ATGM and fire arms production at the Degtyarev plant. Note Russia is so far short on ATGMs that there are regular reports of quite old Soviet-era ATGM tubes being used with high failure rates. There has also been a sighting of Iranian Kornet clones in Russian service.


Rosatom is planning new APSFDS DU rounds for T-62s and T-54/55s. Their ability to penetrate a modern western MBT is limited, but when dealing with T-72M1s it's a different story. Obviously these rounds would also be quite effective against light armor of all makes and models.


Chelyabinsk and Kirov regions, Russian production of artillery shells. We know Russia is tapping Soviet reserves hard and there's a good chance Russia is sourcing imports wherever it can.


A large column of AMN-590951s somewhere. The type has been conspicuously absent on the front lines suggesting that it's being used to replace conventional IFVs and APCs being sent to the front.

 

ngatimozart

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Verified Defense Pro
I think that the Russians need to reorganise their army command structures, strategy and tactics far quicker than reorganisation of the military industrial complex. The criminal waste of personnel and equipment on the frontline is going to result in a major Russian military defeat and possible collapse more than reorganising the MIC. The Russian commanders both on the frontline an in higher command do not appear to have learned much at all from their military setbacks and defeats.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think that the Russians need to reorganise their army command structures, strategy and tactics far quicker than reorganisation of the military industrial complex. The criminal waste of personnel and equipment on the frontline is going to result in a major Russian military defeat and possible collapse more than reorganising the MIC. The Russian commanders both on the frontline an in higher command do not appear to have learned much at all from their military setbacks and defeats.
You're not alone in this opinion. Personally I also find this reorganization questionable. I'm not seeing the ramp up of military production that we should expect. Don't get me wrong, KurganMash and UVZ are producing more for domestic consumption then they did pre-war. But both the scale of fighting and scale of losses requires entire new production lines.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Another bucket of news.

Russia apparently intends to mass-equip vehicles with Nakidka. Reportedly its shown itself well in recent combat use.


A fresh batch of BMP-3s was shipped, quantity unclear.


T-64As have been spotted pulled out of storage. Given that nobody in Russia does engine overhauls for them, it raises questions. It's possible they will be used for spare parts for LDNR and captured Ukrainian T-64s.


OTM is shipping another T-80BVMs (likely mod'22s with the simplified FCS). Note they're apparently coming with Nakidka and standardized removable roof cages. This suggests that they have had some effectiveness.


A large delivery of new military equipment took place in South MD. They got 15+ T-90Ms, some quantity of T-72B3s (likely mod'22s), T-62Ms mod'22, and Motovoz Ural trucks.


A simplified Bumerang variant has been patented and a prototype was seen rolling around on a trailer. It seems to retain the up-armored hull but use a BTR-80 related wheels/transmission/engine. Note while the patent looks similar to the BTR-80, the prototype less so. It's hard to say anything for sure at this point, especially since this war hasn't been kind to wheeled vehicles.


Fresh Russian BTR-82AT, and BMP-2Ms have been spotted whose deliveries have not been advertised. Note they have new armored covers for their sights, no doubt a reaction to the current war.


A look at the BMP-3 production lines reveals the same kind of armored doors for BMP-3 sight boxes.


A closer look at a T-72B3 mod'22 in Yekaterinburg. Note the rear ERA and the sightbox.


A fresh batch of 11 upgraded T-90Ms were sent to Center MD. I wonder if the term "upgraded" means they're pulling old T-90s (not T-90A) and upgrading them or if they simply mean these T-90Ms are T-90M mod'23.


A look at Russian turret replacement projects for Soviet BMPs and BTRs. This is the Spitsa module that's currently going into service on Vystrel armored cars. The module in principle looks good, though we don't have any real feedback. The second link has a look at it's production.


Kurganpash has stated they intend to resurrect the 2S18 Pat-S project. This was an aborted "light" 152mm howitzer project. It uses the 2A63 cannon. With its short range and its scarce BMP-3 chassis to me this looks like a terrible idea. Note the type was rejected for service by the Soviet Army back in the '80s.


Reportedly Russia has completed state trials for the 2S43 Mal'va. This is a Frankenstein's monster merging a giant BAZ chassis with an '80s vintage Msta-B howitzer. While technically a wheeled howitzer and likely no worse then a regular Msta-B in service (likely better since its self-propelled) this is a far cry from a modern western wheeled howitzer. In the best case scenario it will feature the same comms and targeting improvements of the Msta-SM but this is not obvious. One might rationalize this as a war-time desperate move, but this project started pre-war. Likely due to the difficulties of adapting the Coalition to a wheeled chassis.


Coalition-SV state trials are set to complete this year. It remains to be seen whether this works out, but it's been long enough. If this can enter production, it might be able to bridge


There are reports that Russia will begin production of the Manul BMP-3 variant. While this designation ("BMP-3 variant") could be used to sidestep the state trials required, and this might be wise given the current war, it's definitely a new vehicle for all practical intents and purposes that simply shares the hull of a BMP-3 and even then not completely. In principle this is a decent vehicle, somewhat behind the latest western IFVs but reasonably modern and as long as Russia can produce a relevant combat module, it should be something Russia can produce. It remains to be seen whether this sensible compromise moves forward. If it does, it will likely be a good choice for Russian motor-rifles for years to come.


Reportedly Russia has produced over 100 BMP-3s in the first quarter of 2023, and overall defense production will quadriple this year. If true, this would mean 400+ BMP-3s for a year. To me this seems to stretch the upper limit of what I thought Kurganmash could do, but it's not impossible. Kurganmash apparently also increased production at their Volgograd branch and raised salaries by 11.3%. They also claim MBT production in the first quarter equivalent of all production from last year. This seems questionable.


The 163rd Armored Repair Plant reports record numbers of BMP-2s repaired, namely "hundreds" though this is likely '22 and '23.


A look at FPV drone production in Tambov, likely just assembly from imported components.


Russia is forming the 40th Army Corps in South MD. It's unclear what will go into it, possibly a batch of new units.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are some interesting statements recently made regarding Russian MBT plans. First off we have Murakhovskiy claiming that the first T-14 tank company (formed iirc late last year from what I saw) has been disbanded and the tank is up for additional development with the earliest reforming of any unit on it being at least 2024. This doesn't mean a unit will be formed in 2024. It means one won't be formed until then for sure at least according to him. There was a flurry of activity with what appeared to be a test company of T-14s being formed in Kazan previously and it's likely there was an intent to send them to the front. TASS claims they actually did go to the front, but if they did it was quite brief (possibly for some UAV-supported indirect fires).


Next we have a statement from UVZ claiming they will resume full scale T-80 production. Note it appears the intent is to produce an upgraded T-80 variant, possibly using the OKR Burlak turret. I recall hearing that the Burlak was supposed to carry the 2A82 cannon at some point but of course it's not clear what this would look like in practice. It's also not clear Russia can produce the OKR Burlak which would in effect be a new tank. It has a dual autoloader (one in a carousel under the turret, the other in the rear of the turret) new armor design (OKR Burlak featured modular turret armor), an APS, and a new FCS. How much of that will be in play here is unclear. Logically they would retain the Relikt ERA of the T-80BVM, and the FCS matching either the T-80BVM mod'22 or the T-90M depending on Sosna availability. New modular turret armor is an open question, as is what cannon it will carry (the 2A82 would be ideal), and the dual autoloaders. It's very much unclear that Russia will be able to restart production, and it's important to note that the T-80B series were under-armored by Russian standards. Presumably they will be using a hull armor comparable to or matching that of a T-90M. Which raises of course the important question; why bother with the T-80 at all? If the desire is to resurrect the Burlak today, why not use the T-90M chassis? Andrei Tarasenko speculates that issues with the T-14 engine buried that project. This is certainly possible. But the T-90M is in serial production and in the armed forces on a fairly large scale, with many units using it on the front lines. Why bother with the gas-turbine? Or is the intent to really design a new tank around the OKR Burlak turret, a gas-turbine engine, and a new armor package? It's very murky. We really could have anything, from a new T-80BVM variant but with some more improvements, to an alternative FMBT project. Feasibility remains an open question as do timelines.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
If Russia stays on its current course, it's fairly soon going to remain anywhere from a minor threat to eastern Europe, to a purely defensive force (according to a report from: link)
Churning out a few hundred AFVs annually is not going to cut it. It needs much higher production. And the sooner it begins, the better for it. I think that's going to be a major factor in how non-ambitious Russia eventually decides the new tank is going to be.
T-90M and T-80BVM pre-2022 are going to be difficult to manufacture because of foreign parts, and the downsized obr.2022/2023 models are probably a good indicator for the way ahead.

China continues to be a wild card. Okay, it doesn't send tanks to Russia despite its massive production capability - but not even components? Regardless, Russia can try to get the most out of bending the metal a different way, assuming new form factors for MBTs and general AFVs that can provide higher effect. Infuse that with civilian tech and they can get a fairly solid solution for the time being. Even if they buy made-in-China civilian thermals that can only see to several hundred meters with bad resolution and connected with an exposed cable to a barely hanging screen inside, it's better than nothing.

Until Russia can start producing a viable MBT, I assume we'll start seeing heightened refurbishment and even manufacture of towed guns as substitutes.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
If Russia stays on its current course, it's fairly soon going to remain anywhere from a minor threat to eastern Europe, to a purely defensive force (according to a report from: link)
Churning out a few hundred AFVs annually is not going to cut it. It needs much higher production. And the sooner it begins, the better for it. I think that's going to be a major factor in how non-ambitious Russia eventually decides the new tank is going to be.
T-90M and T-80BVM pre-2022 are going to be difficult to manufacture because of foreign parts, and the downsized obr.2022/2023 models are probably a good indicator for the way ahead.
Good point. Counter-point, T-90M production seems to be continuing. The news above are about resurrecting T-80 production at the OTM plant, not about shifting UVZ over to T-80 production.

On the question of scale, I believe Russia produces much more then a few hundred AFVs. Combined MRAP, BTR, BMP, and MBT production, as well as various armored trucks, we're probably looking at something between 1 and 2 thousand vehicles a year.

China continues to be a wild card. Okay, it doesn't send tanks to Russia despite its massive production capability - but not even components? Regardless, Russia can try to get the most out of bending the metal a different way, assuming new form factors for MBTs and general AFVs that can provide higher effect. Infuse that with civilian tech and they can get a fairly solid solution for the time being. Even if they buy made-in-China civilian thermals that can only see to several hundred meters with bad resolution and connected with an exposed cable to a barely hanging screen inside, it's better than nothing.

Until Russia can start producing a viable MBT, I assume we'll start seeing heightened refurbishment and even manufacture of towed guns as substitutes.
Is there something I missed? To the best of my knowledge T-90M production is still ongoing. That's a viable MBT, modern even.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

The Kurganets program is apparently either being reconfigured or was already reconfigured. The statement we have also mentions ongoing trials for the type. Personally I'm more curious about the Manul BMP-3 variant production. That seems like a far more realistic option.


A look at the latest T-80BVM mod'23. The roof cage is now a standard removeable design, with ERA on it. It has new ERA on the sides and front of the hull, and anti-UAV EW mounted on the turret reportedly with effective range from 600-1000m.


Land Forces have gotten a new batch BREM-1Ms from UVZ, completing the 2023 deliveries early.


Kurganmash has sent a new batch of BMP-3s, that include both new vehicles and rebuilt ones (quite possible damaged vehicles from the front). Reportedly they're delivering up-armor kits for every new BMP-3.


BMP-2M deliveries continue. Note the Berezhok module is a relatively complex and high-tech system. Continued production of the type raises questions.


Another look at the new "BTR-82A Improved", which is reportedly also referred to as the BTR-22. I'm going to use the latter designation moving forward since it makes the most sense. There are turret options for it presented, the simple BTR-82A turret, and an upgraded module with a 2A42 autocannon and for some reason the old 9M111 ATGM on it. This latter part makes no sense since old BMP-2s are being rearmed with Kornets as part of the upgrade program. But a brand new APC will carry the old Soviet system? The BTR-22 is reportedly undergoing trials, but is being developed by the factory on their own initiative. In other words, the MoD hasn't asked for this. It would make sense for Russia to purchase the type in principle, assuming it can pass trials. But this situation means it's in factory not state trials. It's unclear how quickly it could be inducted.


We have a rare shot of a T-14 undergoing trials for it's APS. Note even if the MBT doesn't go into production, the APS in question is still needed for other vehicles.


A number of new units are being formed in the Russian Armed Forces. The 22nd Corps of the Black Sea Fleet are being expanded into the 18th Army which include a 70th MRDiv, in it a 28th MRRgt is already active. Also in South MD is a new 47th MRDiv. A new 25th Army is being formed in the Urals which will include the 67th Motor-Rifles. The Northern Fleet's 14th Army Corps will also be turning into an Army. The 155th MarBde is being turned into the 55th MarDiv. This is a logical step since the unit has already formed not one but two volunteer btlns, so currently stands at 5 btlns. The 31st VDV Bde will be turned into the 104th VDV Div. In South MD, Krasnodar area, the VDV has gotten a 52nd Arty Bde using Giatsint-B towed guns. In West MD, near St. Peteresburg, a 17th Heavy Arty Bde is being formed, with 2S7s and 2S4s for guns. Reportedly 5 such brigades are planned. Also in West MD, a 3rd Army Corps is completing formation, and a 6th MRDiv.A 40th Army corps have been formed, with a 144th MRBde in it. A 72nd MRBde is also being formed.


As part of the recent Army-2023 forum Russia has ordered additional Tor-M2 systems, and Shoygu recently visited the factory. It's interesting that production of the type appears to be continuing despite the sanctions.


Also from Army-2023, the Spartak MRAP with various loadouts. Noteworthy is the one carrying an S-60 in the back. Improvised S-60 guntrucks are quite common and it makes sense to use an armored truck.


Otherwise noteworthy is the contract for 2S34 Mal'va SP Howitzers.


Also from Army-2023 is a new piece of Russian SHORAD, using 23mm autocannons, EO, and radar, on a BTR-82A chassis. This is clearly meant for anti-UAV work.


Russia's 1430th Motor-Rifles Rgt with their T-55As. The tanks have no upgrades of any kind, and it's not clear if they intend to use them as tanks or as improvised SP Arty.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
We have a rare shot of a T-14 undergoing trials for it's APS. Note even if the MBT doesn't go into production, the APS in question is still needed for other vehicles.
In the grand Armata program, sanctions probably hit Afghanit the hardest. It's not easy to downsize a 3D (let alone a 4D) radar to fit multiple units on a tank, especially when many western components are restricted.
It's also not easy to redesign the pre-war product to cover a hemisphere rather than just the front. Afghanit will need to evolve quite substantially. A discouraging factor for Russia is that others like China, Turkey, South Korea, are struggling in the same efforts.
 
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