Russia and the West

Stuart M

Active Member
Definitely not. Putin is far more cunning and dangerous than either Hitler or Mussolini ever were. Hitler was the best General the allies ever had. Yes you are right about Mussolini, however he did get Italian trains to run on time. That was a feat in itself.
So cunning that he's turned his nation into a complete economic pariah, bogged it down in a war of attrition and his population is still shrinking. No, Putin is good at playing the strongman when he doesn't have to prove it against someone who punches back I think.

Here I definitely disagree. Xi makes Hitler look like a has been. If you want a historical comparison to Xi, think of Stalin with access to modern surveillance technology. Then infuse that with Mao's inwards looking peasant based ideology and you have Xi.
That wasn't the comparison I was making, just that if one is comparing Putin to Hitler, Putins actions look more Mussoesque than Hitlarian and Xi looks more Hitlarian. Xi is obviously a different kettle of fish, but politicians and msm are never keen to compare him to Stalin, not that I think that it's productive to do so.

We are treating Putin as he is.
That article linked above was treating him like ol Adolf, and there's far to much of it.

However comparisons to previous tyrants and genocidal maniacs cannot be avoided because that is one of the criteria that we use to measure a leaders worth, especially one who is running a repressive authoritarian dictatorship. How do you assess someone like Putin if you cannot actively compare and contrast them with historical metrics such as Hitler, Stalin, Robespierre, Ivan the Terrible, Polpot, Papa Doc Duvalier, Mao etc?
If you wish to do so, fine, I don't find such comparisons to be useful.


We don't do ourselves a disservice by looking at comparisons or options beyond "stopping" them. In fact it's very important to plan ahead and plan for all possible outcomes. The end of WW1 taught us that because it directly lead to Hitler, the Holocaust, WW2, The Middle East wars and crisis etc. The complete diplomatic balls up from the ashes of WW1 still reverberates throughout the world today, 103 years and one devastating war later.

Snip
I was referring to the tendency of public's, and often expressed and taken to unreasonable extents by politicians and msm, to lul ourselves into a false sense of security on the basis of what Imperial Japan called Victory disease to which I add the success of the ancestors. When we are not objective about history, or treat ourselves as above the currents of reality, that's is when we do ourselves a disservice.

I don't include members of the armed forces in that category as they generally know better.
 

Twain

Active Member
Seems like an appropriate time to post this

Who’s Behind #IStandWithPutin?
"The fact that Western analysts don’t see information warfare doesn’t mean it isn’t happening, and it doesn’t mean the West has won."

"Despite this, it’s far too early to declare information victory. If anything, this apparent consensus—that Ukraine has won the online war—might be obscuring where battles over the invasion are really raging."

"From there, we compiled a roster of randomly selected accounts from across our new map and delved into them, to try to draw out what set each of the different clusters of accounts apart. What struck us immediately was how clearly each cluster seemed to relate to geography—to the purported national identities and languages that the accounts used.

There was a dense knot of accounts identified as Indian that largely retweeted a stream of messaging in English and Hindi supporting Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party. Another group used Urdu, Sindhi, and Farsi, with users primarily identifying as Iranian or Pakistani. One node was ostensibly from South Africa but included Ghanaian, Nigerian, and Kenyan users talking about public health, fuel shortages in Nigeria, and former South African President Jacob Zuma."


"The memes pushed vivid anti-colonial and anti-Western imagery mixed with Putin strongman motifs and solidarity among the BRICS: Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa. Some applauded Russia’s great friendship toward India or Putin’s apparent role in African liberation movements, but many were really about the West, its own seeming hypocrisy, and the alleged aggression of NATO expansion."



I'm not going to say too much about this because it is not my area of expertise (by a wide margin). I just found it interesting in who russia is targeting (asia and africa) with it's propaganda, and the how and why of it.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #963
Seems like an appropriate time to post this

Who’s Behind #IStandWithPutin?
"The fact that Western analysts don’t see information warfare doesn’t mean it isn’t happening, and it doesn’t mean the West has won."

"Despite this, it’s far too early to declare information victory. If anything, this apparent consensus—that Ukraine has won the online war—might be obscuring where battles over the invasion are really raging."

"From there, we compiled a roster of randomly selected accounts from across our new map and delved into them, to try to draw out what set each of the different clusters of accounts apart. What struck us immediately was how clearly each cluster seemed to relate to geography—to the purported national identities and languages that the accounts used.

There was a dense knot of accounts identified as Indian that largely retweeted a stream of messaging in English and Hindi supporting Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party. Another group used Urdu, Sindhi, and Farsi, with users primarily identifying as Iranian or Pakistani. One node was ostensibly from South Africa but included Ghanaian, Nigerian, and Kenyan users talking about public health, fuel shortages in Nigeria, and former South African President Jacob Zuma."


"The memes pushed vivid anti-colonial and anti-Western imagery mixed with Putin strongman motifs and solidarity among the BRICS: Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa. Some applauded Russia’s great friendship toward India or Putin’s apparent role in African liberation movements, but many were really about the West, its own seeming hypocrisy, and the alleged aggression of NATO expansion."



I'm not going to say too much about this because it is not my area of expertise (by a wide margin). I just found it interesting in who russia is targeting (asia and africa) with it's propaganda, and the how and why of it.
Moved to appropriate thread.

I mean.. this isn't surprising. Look at who is still buying Russian oil and gas. This is part of the same argument Ananda was making. And it's part of Putin's undiguised belief that the age of western dominance is over, and diversifying towards non-western markets and partners is the way to go. Why this meant burning bridges with the west is unclear, but the fact that he's targetting these areas makes sense and fits with the rest of the pattern. Moreover these are less developed nation-states that may turn out to be more vulnerable to propaganda especially of this kind.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Moreover these are less developed nation-states that may turn out to be more vulnerable to propaganda especially of this kind.
I do not think they are buying more to Russian propaganda because they come out from less developing society. However because they are from beginning are more inclined toward Russia then West.

I see the online war between pro Russia and pro West in some ASEAN forums for example, much related toward their Political choices. Those pro West (not going to say pro Ukranian, as many Asian on lines community believe this is actually war between Russia and West using Ukranian as proxy), from beginning already have more liberal leaning thinking. While pro Russian comes from mostly more traditionalist thinking.

Interesting situation is in India. Actually BJP is the most Pro Western administration there is in India. They're more leaning to West then Congress from example. However many pro BJP on line supporters turn to Putin support due to what they perceived as back lash toward Western politicians and media pressure to India in pushing to supporting Ukraine, and isolate Russia.

Seems some of Western politicians, mainstram media and big part of society can not and choose not to understand. They see the Ukraine War as Black and White matters, while many in Asia, Africa and even South America see this as 'grey' matters. Thus this's already huge gap of perception difference.

I don't want to open the debate why many outside Collective West and their closest allies, see this war on grey matters and decided to stay more or less in the fence. Western media and Politicians sometimes perplexed why many developing nations votes to condemned Russian Invasion, but reluctance to jump in to US lead band wagon on isolating Russia.

The matter of Russian resources, Russian defense items, and basically Russian business is still matter toward some developing nations energy life line and defense independent. However many also see this war not much difference with US lead invasion toward sovereign nation before. This point perhaps can raise ire from some Western or pro Western members in here. However it does not matter, because what ever the West debate on this will not change the many public perception in developing nations on this war.

The other thing that matter is China. Many in developing nations already see this world going to move toward Multi Polar global economy. Just like in last cold War, many in developing nations decided to be in the fences will be more beneficial. This is also seems that going to happen. China capital and Russian resources is alternative toward collective West capital and market, for some developing nations.
 
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T.C.P

Active Member
Seems like an appropriate time to post this

Who’s Behind #IStandWithPutin?
"The fact that Western analysts don’t see information warfare doesn’t mean it isn’t happening, and it doesn’t mean the West has won."

"Despite this, it’s far too early to declare information victory. If anything, this apparent consensus—that Ukraine has won the online war—might be obscuring where battles over the invasion are really raging."

"From there, we compiled a roster of randomly selected accounts from across our new map and delved into them, to try to draw out what set each of the different clusters of accounts apart. What struck us immediately was how clearly each cluster seemed to relate to geography—to the purported national identities and languages that the accounts used.

There was a dense knot of accounts identified as Indian that largely retweeted a stream of messaging in English and Hindi supporting Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party. Another group used Urdu, Sindhi, and Farsi, with users primarily identifying as Iranian or Pakistani. One node was ostensibly from South Africa but included Ghanaian, Nigerian, and Kenyan users talking about public health, fuel shortages in Nigeria, and former South African President Jacob Zuma."


"The memes pushed vivid anti-colonial and anti-Western imagery mixed with Putin strongman motifs and solidarity among the BRICS: Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa. Some applauded Russia’s great friendship toward India or Putin’s apparent role in African liberation movements, but many were really about the West, its own seeming hypocrisy, and the alleged aggression of NATO expansion."



I'm not going to say too much about this because it is not my area of expertise (by a wide margin). I just found it interesting in who russia is targeting (asia and africa) with it's propaganda, and the how and why of it.
I cannot speak for India or other countries you mentioned, but the sentiment of my country is more Pro Russian than pro Western. I am talking about the sentiment of the populace and not the stance of the govt.

One key thing to keep in mind, is that in my country ( and in a lot of the countires you mentioned as well), Western military incursions are viewed differently. The way you feel so close to Ukraine because of cultural/racial/religious ties we feel the same way about Iraq, Libya, Palestine. I am not going to debate about the rightnesss or wrongess of the Iraqi/Libyan interventions, but they were extremely unpopular to the populace here.

And its not just military views either. My country is very conservative and populace are not exactly big fans of social liberalism.Putin has spent the last few years creating this image of a strong leader who stands up against the Wests "excess' social liberalization and this image has built him a lot of existing goodwill.

Add to that the fact that the west threatens sanctions/trade restirctions/ aid withdrawals if we dont meet their arbitrary human rights/ environmental concerns where as, neither China nor Russia ever interferes in our domestic policies. You might see that as a positive, but to us its Westerners trying to meddle in our affairs where as Russia leaves us alone.

Putting it all together, there is significant negative sentiment towards Western interventions( both military and political). This negative sentiment, means the population is more accomodating to anything that challenges the West. Its easy to sell a car to someone who is actively shopping for one.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is an interesting article positing that the Russian population is decreasing significantly. It could be argued that Putin is trying to boost the population by conquest. However what it does state is that the birth rate for the ethnic Russian population is well below the replacement rate and it's declining at an increasing rate. It has a high mortality rate compared to other nations and both it's male and female life expectancy is a lot lower than its neighbours or populations in the EU. Reasons given for this suggest high alcoholism, early cardiac events, and strokes as major causes. In the context of this thread, the most important impact it has, is the far lower replacement rate of ethnic Russians for the military, meaning a polyglot of recruits and service personnel in the military as it becomes more multi-ethnic, because far more personnel will not have Russian as their first language. This will create problems in the field.

Russia is dying out - UnHerd
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This is an interesting article positing that the Russian population is decreasing significantly. It could be argued that Putin is trying to boost the population by conquest. However what it does state is that the birth rate for the ethnic Russian population is well below the replacement rate and it's declining at an increasing rate. It has a high mortality rate compared to other nations and both it's male and female life expectancy is a lot lower than its neighbours or populations in the EU. Reasons given for this suggest high alcoholism, early cardiac events, and strokes as major causes. In the context of this thread, the most important impact it has, is the far lower replacement rate of ethnic Russians for the military, meaning a polyglot of recruits and service personnel in the military as it becomes more multi-ethnic, because far more personnel will not have Russian as their first language. This will create problems in the field.

Russia is dying out - UnHerd
Given the serious decline is likely accurate it is another factor team Putin didn’t include in the risk analysis for the planned de-Nazification of Ukraine. Maintaining the revenue stream from Siberian resources will be difficult with the reduced population. I am sure Vlad’s friend Xi will make an attractive offer of Chinese workers for a big share of the action. Maybe Putin and his fellow thieves should just sell Siberia to China and run off and hide on a tropical island. Apparently Jeffrey Epstein’s island is up for sale.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
It could be argued that Putin is trying to boost the population by conquest
That can be argue on one thing. Ukranian fertility rate is actually lower then Russian ones. The data shown Russian fertility rate is 1.5 while Ukraine is 1.2. Both below International threshold of 1.7-1.8 fertility rate which being considered as threshold for one on one replacement rate.

If Russia being call dying out, then Ukraine is dying out much faster rate then Russian even before the war. By that logic, any conquest land of Ukraine will be depopulated much faster then Russian land.



This is also interesting, as US source more gassoline from Asian refineries with biggest increase is coming from Indian ones. While at same time Indian refineries sources more crudes from Russia to be processed by them.

Thus it is very plausible those gassolines being procured by US from Indian refineries increasingly coming from Russian crude.

Just shown the complexities of global energy market makes any claim by US and Allies to cut off Russian energy from International market is something close to delutional. Again Global demand is increasing while supplies in the end is more finite.


This is also shown how market will find away to circumstance political road block. This is also shown the movement toward multipolar global market will only accelerate by this sanctions.
 
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