Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

Super Nimrod

New Member
13 is no small number and can't be too disimilar to the number currently operated by the USA, Clearly early experience is showing it to be a force mutiplier (or perhaps it just saves some money) :rolleyes:

Regardless, getting in on the ground floor with this sort of capability will give the RAF a headstart and lots of experience in UAV's when the more capable and offensive stuff such as Taranis comes along in the next 5 years.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
13 is no small number and can't be too disimilar to the number currently operated by the USA, Clearly early experience is showing it to be a force mutiplier (or perhaps it just saves some money) :rolleyes:

Regardless, getting in on the ground floor with this sort of capability will give the RAF a headstart and lots of experience in UAV's when the more capable and offensive stuff such as Taranis comes along in the next 5 years.
and can be weponised by strapping hellfire &1000 pounds bombs very easily:D.
 

neil

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #63
This is also very good news in the light of persistant rumours of further cuts to the front line, concerning the closing down of two Tornado GR.4 squadrons.
(One from each main operating base)
This has explicity been denied by a junior minister in parliarment iirc
Good to hear!!
 

Navor86

Member
JCA Delivery Schedule
A US DOD planning document dated November 2001 showed year by year how the UK F-35 aircraft would be delivered (orders would need to be placed approximately two years earlier), divided into 4 categories of test, training, operations and attrition.
The document also said that the UK will have 4 operational squadrons of 12 aircraft with 18 pilots each plus a training squadron of 16 aircraft. Attrition aircraft would replace those lost in squadron service and any excess would go into long term storage. Squadron aircraft would be cycled through storage to ensure the fleet accumulated hours evenly across airframes.
from Navy Matters

Can someone explain to me why the UK will just have 4 Combat Sqn+1Training Sqn and after that 84 JSF just sitting in Depots?I mean does the RAF count to loose so damn many Aircraft. I mean with 150 Aircarft they could easyli field 8 Sqn a 12 JSF + Test/training Sqn and still have 30 JSF spare
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Formal announcement.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...s/13BillionDealForNewTankerAircraftSigned.htm

The recent successful trip by Sarkosy to the UK and subsequent joint UK/France statements reference strengthening defense ties, I think the French should join the UK tanker program, order additional airframes and then pool their collective resources. Heavy participation by EADS will certainly please the Franch.
The French have already selected A330MRTT and are in negotiations. From what I've read, they're talking about 15 or 16 (at least, that's what the AdlA wants), & maybe a PFI deal, though that may be combined with outright purchase of a few for urgent needs first, because of the delays arranging a PFI contract will cause.
 

outsider

New Member
Is anyone else here dubious about the value for money represented by the £13 Billion PFI contract for just 14 A330MRTT. Ok the contract runs for 30 years and AirTanker Ltd are responsable for operating and maintaining the aircraft, but the KC45 the US version of the A330MRTT is priced at 160 million usd each.

Doing the math, that works out at £928 million per aircraft over the lifetime of the contract. Seems a bit steep to me.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Is anyone else here dubious about the value for money represented by the £13 Billion PFI contract for just 14 A330MRTT. Ok the contract runs for 30 years and AirTanker Ltd are responsable for operating and maintaining the aircraft, but the KC45 the US version of the A330MRTT is priced at 160 million usd each.

Doing the math, that works out at £928 million per aircraft over the lifetime of the contract. Seems a bit steep to me.
I don't know what the operating cost of a tanker (including crew) should be per year, but deducting £80 million for the aircraft & dividing by 30 makes that £28.3 million per year. One should also deduct a bit for buildings & so on which are included in the contract.

Anyone know whether £25 million or so per year is in line with expected tanker operating costs?
 
Does the contract also cover the costs of any and all spare parts for damaged airframes as it would be rather hard to say just how damaged they will get over the course of 25 years?
 

Highwayman

New Member
Nimrod maybe scrapped

LONDON (Reuters) - The Ministry of Defence must decide whether it should "cut its losses" and abandon the Nimrod programme after a delay of some eight years and a near billion-pound overspend, a group of MPs said on Thursday.
The Nimrod MRA4 maritime patrol aircraft, which has been blighted by development problems, will have racked up a further overrun of 100 million pounds in 2007/8, bringing the total over-budget figure to 800 million pounds.
The aircraft was originally announced in 1992 as a replacement for the Nimrod MR2, but has suffered technical problems.
The Commons Defence Committee said the MoD must "carefully examine whether it should cut its losses and withdraw from this sorry saga".
"The committee calls on the minister for defence equipment and support to assess whether the programme will ever deliver the capability required within the timescale needed and, if not, to withdraw from it," it added in a report.
Nimrod is one of a number of projects criticised by the MPs for overrunning on budget or deadline.
The committee reflected how "disappointing" it was that the first of the Navy's two new aircraft carriers will be without the new Joint Strike Fighter aircraft when they are expected to enter service in 2014 because of delays.
The A400M transport aircraft is also expected to enter service two years late.
The MoD's equipment programme was "unaffordable" and sacrifices needed to be made as part of the Planning Round, the MPs said.
Originally 21 aircraft, then 18, then 12 and now 0?
What is the alternative carry flying the MR2 until Poseidon is available?
2nd hand Orions are there any available especially as the US has had to ground 39 aircraft due wing problems?
Develop a MR version of the A320 with France - would take 10 - 15 years?
Buy a MR version of the ERJ145 which maybe available relatively quickly - lacking the capabilites required
All go down the Dutch route and lose a MR/ASW capability and rely on off the shelf aircraft to perform some of the less military duties such as SAR.
Carry with Nimrod MR4 and hope for the best
The MoD could buy all the preserved Shackleton aircraft and get them flying again - maybe simpler and quicker!
What ever happens the RAF loses out thanks to the ineptitude of politicians and BAe.

What ever happens the RAF loses out
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I would think if the British bought the P-8 Poseidon, the US Navy will find a way to let the British get some of the earlier aircraft. I don't think the British could go wrong with Boeing 737s. There are many nations thinking about the P-8s, as most of the P-3 Orions are dated and worn out.
 
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RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Airborne Sniper Squad Targets Iraqi Militia

Airborne Sniper Squad Targets Iraqi Militia

(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued April 14, 2008)
Defense aerospace Article

In the skies over Basra, a crack squad of highly trained RAF Regiment snipers have been hard at work supporting ground troops and Immediate Response Teams (IRT) under fire from Iraqi militia.

Flying with RAF Merlin and Lynx crews, the heavily armed heli-snipers can be mobilised at short notice to locate and eliminate enemy positions, reducing the threat to Army ground troops and medical units on the ground.

So far the heli-snipers have been deployed to give force protection for Lynx immediate response teams, scrambled to evacuate casualties, fire support for deliberate operations, rapid route clearance for convoys, and to counter the threat from militia preparing crude explosive devices.

Using IRT for the role gives the heli-snipers the ability to respond quickly. Travelling by air also gives them an improved field of vision, allowing them to relay vital surveillance to commanders on the ground.

Cpl Sean McKinnel of the RAF Regiment's 2 Squadron explained the heli-sniper's role: "We act as top cover to provide protection during many tasks. The tasks since deploying to Op TELIC have included covering US BLACKHAWKS as they evacuate casualties from Basra Palace, covering UK MERLIN helicopters inserting troops. We have also been employed in covering urban areas likely to be used to launch rockets against the COB.

"Operating from the helicopters offers us great observation and a different perspective to that on the ground. We are able to assist in securing areas rapidly and are able to engage targets at greater ranges."

Fellow 2 Sqn sniper SAC Gambling said: "The great thing about the heli-sniping tasks are that you never know what you are going to get on your next shout. Every call-out is different."

Tasks such as fence-line checks which can take ground patrols hours to complete can be accomplished in minutes. Armed with advanced rifles, equipped with laser-marking capability, the RAF sniper teams have already proved effective in combat.

As well as a range of cutting edge thermal imagers, the teams have been issued with laser target designators, range finders and a suite of VHF radios for maintaining air to ground communications, allowing them to counter the threat from vehicle borne suicide attacks by calling in air strikes.

Each field squadron within the RAF Regiment has a section of sniper-qualified riflemen who provide the surveillance and target acquisition capability for the squadron.

The section has a heli-sniper team on standby around the clock to respond to specific incidents. The team work on a rotational basis, with the heli-snipers carrying out ground sniping and surveillance duties when not on standby.

In order to operate the cutting edge battlefield technology, heli-snipers are put through a tough nine-week training course at Honington, covering all the essential elements of sniping and surveillance, including specialist marksmanship skills such as angular shooting and advanced correction for wind. 2 Sqn RAF Regiment sniper Cpl Ian McClive said:

"As this is a new skill to all the lads, we had to conduct a number of range sessions aboard the helicopters to see the effects on our shooting. Now after a little practise all of the lads are confident at engaging targets on the move from a helicopter."

Once qualified as snipers, specialists can go on to command a sniper section, but continual training is required for Service personnel to hone their shooting skills to deal with continually changing combat environments.


Great article, good to see some positive media, and dang what a really really sweet job.
 

Pro'forma

New Member
Is it upgrade few predator competence, line composition ?

Upheaval and squad base regroup, rejoining active tech and if not
misinterpretting, minor and possible program expansion for RAF, coming in sight.
 

neil

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #77
Airborne Sniper Squad Targets Iraqi Militia

(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued April 14, 2008)
Defense aerospace Article

In the skies over Basra, a crack squad of highly trained RAF Regiment snipers have been hard at work supporting ground troops and Immediate Response Teams (IRT) under fire from Iraqi militia.

Flying with RAF Merlin and Lynx crews, the heavily armed heli-snipers can be mobilised at short notice to locate and eliminate enemy positions, reducing the threat to Army ground troops and medical units on the ground.

So far the heli-snipers have been deployed to give force protection for Lynx immediate response teams, scrambled to evacuate casualties, fire support for deliberate operations, rapid route clearance for convoys, and to counter the threat from militia preparing crude explosive devices.

Using IRT for the role gives the heli-snipers the ability to respond quickly. Travelling by air also gives them an improved field of vision, allowing them to relay vital surveillance to commanders on the ground.

Cpl Sean McKinnel of the RAF Regiment's 2 Squadron explained the heli-sniper's role: "We act as top cover to provide protection during many tasks. The tasks since deploying to Op TELIC have included covering US BLACKHAWKS as they evacuate casualties from Basra Palace, covering UK MERLIN helicopters inserting troops. We have also been employed in covering urban areas likely to be used to launch rockets against the COB.

"Operating from the helicopters offers us great observation and a different perspective to that on the ground. We are able to assist in securing areas rapidly and are able to engage targets at greater ranges."

Fellow 2 Sqn sniper SAC Gambling said: "The great thing about the heli-sniping tasks are that you never know what you are going to get on your next shout. Every call-out is different."

Tasks such as fence-line checks which can take ground patrols hours to complete can be accomplished in minutes. Armed with advanced rifles, equipped with laser-marking capability, the RAF sniper teams have already proved effective in combat.

As well as a range of cutting edge thermal imagers, the teams have been issued with laser target designators, range finders and a suite of VHF radios for maintaining air to ground communications, allowing them to counter the threat from vehicle borne suicide attacks by calling in air strikes.

Each field squadron within the RAF Regiment has a section of sniper-qualified riflemen who provide the surveillance and target acquisition capability for the squadron.

The section has a heli-sniper team on standby around the clock to respond to specific incidents. The team work on a rotational basis, with the heli-snipers carrying out ground sniping and surveillance duties when not on standby.

In order to operate the cutting edge battlefield technology, heli-snipers are put through a tough nine-week training course at Honington, covering all the essential elements of sniping and surveillance, including specialist marksmanship skills such as angular shooting and advanced correction for wind. 2 Sqn RAF Regiment sniper Cpl Ian McClive said:

"As this is a new skill to all the lads, we had to conduct a number of range sessions aboard the helicopters to see the effects on our shooting. Now after a little practise all of the lads are confident at engaging targets on the move from a helicopter."

Once qualified as snipers, specialists can go on to command a sniper section, but continual training is required for Service personnel to hone their shooting skills to deal with continually changing combat environments.


Great article, good to see some positive media, and dang what a really really sweet job.
Yes great to hear. Airborne snipers can be extremely effective as the recent French operation to capture Somali pirates have shown.

A minor problem with the article. The RAF does not operate Lynx helicopters. They probably will have some RAF pilots flying them for the Army Air Corps within Joint Helicopter Command, though.

Is it upgrade few predator competence, line composition ?

Upheaval and squad base regroup, rejoining active tech and if not
misinterpretting, minor and possible program expansion for RAF, coming in sight.
Proforma obviously you aren't an English speaker, I will however attempt to add to what you said.

The RAF is anxious to expand its Predator and Reaper operations(These are currently being conducted jointly with the USAF, even though 39 Squadron RAF has been reformed for this purpose). However there are significant budgetary hurdles. So much so that the recent RAF foreign military sales request for 10 additional Reapers is in jeopardy.

There is an increasing trend to operate ISTAR assets jointly in a 'pool' of aircraft with the USAF. A recent article in the magazine Air Forces Monthly, indicated that the UK Ministry of Defence was concidering leasing two 'Rivet Joint' ISTAR aircraft from the USAF, to be operated in a similar manner to the current 'pool' of RAF\USAF Predators and Reapers. These aircraft would act as a replacement for the current 51 Squadron Nimrod R.1's.

Is this trend a good thing? I think not.
 

Actual

Banned Member
There is an increasing trend to operate ISTAR assets jointly in a 'pool' of aircraft with the USAF. A recent article in the magazine Air Forces Monthly, indicated that the UK Ministry of Defence was concidering leasing two 'Rivet Joint' ISTAR aircraft from the USAF, to be operated in a similar manner to the current 'pool' of RAFUSAF Predators and Reapers. These aircraft would act as a replacement for the current 51 Squadron Nimrod R.1's.

Is this trend a good thing? I think not.
You're right, the failiure to modernise the Nimrod R.1 and the leasing of Rivet Joint is yet another example of Whitehall's short-sightedness. As the AFM article describes, the loss of R.1 would remove a critical UK independent SIGINT asset that is more in tune with RAF doctrine than Rivet Joint. Indeed, I wonder how old the Rivet Joint's we lease would be and would the US place restrictions on their use??

The effectiveness of the R.1 platform has been consistently proven time and again, I fear however the RAF brass will roll-over and accept the decision. As per their usual SOP at the moment.
 
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Pro'forma

New Member
Quote:Neil

Yes, you moderators are saying line after another line, please do not repeat
and repeat already expressed opinions and comments, so pardon when
beg to differ as a columnist.

23801 lines written; " I do think this is not considerable sell-off year 2001
tyre-parts" is looking not yet desirable for us all.

And this time your choice to give one of us a point(s) to consider.

A minor point already written previously, quoting predator
exercise multinationally with (not hoping sadly) predator/reaper/etc.,
jointly and severally; good or not and when the costs are asking attention
what can you say ? Not one joyless mission reduction again in sight.

Thank You for valuation.
 

ASFC

New Member
As far as I am aware the RAF does not 'pool' its Reapers with the USAF. I have always been led to believe that we base our operators in Nevada because it is cheaper to than to set up the facilities in the UK to run what is currently a fairly small force. (We own three outright.)

BTW, do we have a link that states the UK buy is in danger from budget cuts, or are we just speculating based on the fact that the military is at the moment working under the fear of Whitehall induced cuts across all three services?

I suspect the leasing of River Joint (is it still going ahead?) would be short term, and that once the budget is better, we will probably build replacements for the R1 fleet.

Edit: just delving into the realms of politics quickly. RAF Brass do not roll over. However, as they are supposed to be apolitical, you will never find any of the Armed Forces top brass having a major public argument with the Govt in the UK papers (although retired ones do). No doubt behind the scenes you will find them working hard to stop any cuts.
 
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