Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

ddxx

Active Member
Of course those OPV will not matter much against PLAN if games stages got 'hot' in SCS. However if PN have them and willing to used them to shown presence against Chinese vessels (like Vietnam did with mostly less capable vessels), it will provide venue from Chinese to potential change the approach to Philipines in SCS. That's a game changer in my book.
I fundamentally agree. If every standard put towards regional fleet growth or capability enhancement is measured in regards to high end conflict against a much larger aggressor and then ruled out as useless, what then is the point of any sort of defence force?

Reality says by theory of deterrence that things like presence do in fact change the calculations for a would be aggressor, as long as they maintain a logical mindset that is. If it increases potential awareness and/or opposition to an aggressive advance, any logical adversary has to build that in to their cost/gain equation.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
is measured in regards to high end conflict against a much larger aggressor and then ruled out as useless, what then is the point of any sort of defence force?
Yes but this is clearly not the case here. The OPVs are intended to provide a much better ability to safeguard the EZZ in a peacetime environment and the frigates and corvettes enable some form of external defence security in the event of a a conflict by enabling the PN to have something it has long wanted but lacked; modern multi role surface combatants.

reality says by theory of deterrence that things like presence do in fact change the calculations for a would be aggressor
True indeed but in this case the OPVs significantly improve the ability of the PN to intercept intrusions and to maintain a presence in the area but it it will have no affect on what China continues to do. In a PN context planning for subs and Brahmos constitutes the desire to have some level of deterrent capability against but another way of looking at it is that it consumes resources which can be used for stuff like more surface assets; MPAs and UASs; all stuff needed for current challenges faced in the country's maritime domain.
 

koxinga

Active Member
Not yet a contract, but one step closer in getting the Brahmos for the Philippine Navy.

I just wonder what the Philippine Navy plan to use as guidance for over the horizon targeting.
It would be tricky to use at the extreme ranges as the south china seas has plenty of commercial shipping. Other than their Hermes drones (which we do not know whether they comes with any SAR), nothing else comes close.

1) Within range of their ground base sensors for ASHM missions instead of the maximum ranges. This is probably the so-called "direct" trajectory.
2) Possibly at fixed, land based targets like the Chinese held islands in land attack mode.

Is this considered a game changer? To some degree, yes. The Vietnamese already operates the P-800 so the Chineses are not unfamiliar with them. Still, they will need to consider the ability to track these assets and formulate plans to interdict them if there are signs of impending deployment.

 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
It would be tricky to use at the extreme ranges as the south china seas has plenty of commercial shipping.
Unless there 's a period of tensions before hostilities breaking out; enabling commercial shipping to leave the area.

Within range of their ground base sensors for ASHM missions instead of the maximum ranges.
Maybe but if the intention was not to fully utilise the range offered by Brahmos the PN would have been better off getting land based Harpoon or NSM. Unless of course the intention was to have something both with range and a land attack capability.

I have no idea if there is a standing requirement for MPAs but fitted with a data link the MPA would be useful for OTHT. I also have no idea if the Wildcats came fitted with Link Y or anything else but if they have a data link it could also be used for OTHT although the fact that the Wildcat has limited range and endurance and will be ship embarked are factors. On paper a data link equipped Wildcat could be connected to a land based surveillance asset which in turn could be connected to Brahmos.

Is this considered a game changer? To some degree, yes.
It is intended to act as a deterrent and indeed will be a factor in influencing Chinese planning but ultimately Brahmas by itself will not in the larger scheme of things be a 'game changer'; at least in my opinion.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
We just have to wait end see how the Philippine Navy will use the Brahmos as a coastal defence system. One thing is sure, it has to be protected by an advanced multi-layered air defence system, and also against ground troops/elite units. It will be undoubtly on nr.1 on china's "to attack list".

Here some more information.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One thing to consider is how much does the PLA know about the Brahmos? If they know a lot then they will be able to counter it easily enough.
 

koxinga

Active Member
One thing to consider is how much does the PLA know about the Brahmos? If they know a lot then they will be able to counter it easily enough.
Well, they were selling a similar design a few years ago, the CX-1, which is not a vapourware but a working system based on the product video showing the testing.

It would be safe to say that they know how it works.
 

koxinga

Active Member
Maybe but if the intention was not to fully utilise the range offered by Brahmos the PN would have been better off getting land based Harpoon or NSM. Unless of course the intention was to have something both with range and a land attack capability.
I think this is the case. This program of theirs existed way back, and the selected model then was IMI's LYNX/EXTRA, which would be more effective against fixed targets, but less so moving ones.

It is intended to act as a deterrent and indeed will be a factor in influencing Chinse planning but ultimately Brahmas by itself will not in the larger scheme of things be a 'game changer'; at least in my opinion.
Few, if any countries in the region would be able to introduce anything that would significantly alter Chinese planning in a military sense. A true game changer in the SCS is likely to be some realignment of the approaches to deal with the Chinese.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
One thing to consider is how much does the PLA know about the Brahmos? If they know a lot then they will be able to counter it easily enough.
The Hermes UAVs operated by the Philippines can’t survive for long without fighter coverage. Lacking in sensor—shooter integration (with IFF), the Pinoys are a greater threat to commercial shipping than the PLA(N). I suspect the Philippine fanboys don’t understand what it means to set the wrong priority in defence planning — the Philippine Navy has yet to induct the C-star anti-ship missiles on the Rizal class frigates, which should be a priority. They seem to be looking at the missile isolation from setting up a proper and robust sensor—shooter chain.

Within 2-3 days of any armed conflict with China, the Pinoys and their sensors for Brahmos would have been taken out — which means they can only shoot blind into a general direction and bearing. Instead of being of help, the Brahmos if operated Pinoys, IMO, are a greater threat to the USN and JMSDF than the PLA(N).
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
We just have to wait end see how the Philippine Navy will use the Brahmos as a coastal defence system.
Brahmos is intended to provide a deterrent capability and until assets such as more missile armed frigates; ASM equipped fighters and subs are procured; it will be - on paper - the AFP's most effective or main means of causing damage to PLAN assets.

We can safely assume that although the Brahmos unit will be permanently based at a single location for administrative and logistical purposes; in times of tension or conflict it will deploy to a number of pre registered or planned sites around Luzon, the Visayas or Palawan. Constantly moving and maintaining strict - as far as possible - emission control will be crucial in evading detection. What the AFP can do is also to indulge in a bit of maskirovka; decoys which emit electronic emissions. There is also a long coastline; even with various surveillance/strike assets which can detect and hit targets in near real time; the Chinese may not find it easy to locate Brahmos.

They seem to be looking at the missile isolation from setting up a proper and robust sensor—shooter chain.
The politicians seem to be; after all for them Brahmos is a highly significant; buying it is a political move. The AFP however would be keenly aware that to fully exploit the capabilities offered by Brahmos; a strike/recce complex is needed.

Still early days and it remains to be seen what assets are procured in due course; to be used in conjunction with Brahmos.

Instead of being of help, the Brahmos if operated Pinoys, IMO, are a greater threat to the USN and JMSDF than the PLA(N).
Depends; there could be deconfliction zones or the PN might end up employing Brahmos in specific areas with little or no possibility of a 'friendly' hit.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Its official now....a ceremonial contract signing for the Shore-based Anti-ship Missile System acquisition project for the Philippine Navy worth Php 18,9 Billion from Brahmos Aerospace was held yesterday at the Department of National Defense.
 

koxinga

Active Member
A total of 3 batteries for the Philippines Navy. There appears to be a parallel procurement of a further 2 batteries for the Philippines Army at a later stage.

It is unclear to me why the two services appear to have overlapping missions.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
A total of 3 batteries for the Philippines Navy. There appears to be a parallel procurement of a further 2 batteries for the Philippines Army at a later stage.

It is unclear to me why the two services appear to have overlapping missions.
Yes, its a little bit strange and less cost effective such overlapping task sharing.

In my opinion it would be better if the army provide an additional layer of protection for the Brahmos launch installations with ground troops and mobile air defence systems.

 

STURM

Well-Known Member
It is unclear to me why the two services appear to have overlapping missions.
Not the best of arrangements but in addition to political reasons driven by inter service rivalry perhaps the army would be focused on dealing with a different set of targets.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
In my opinion it would be better if the army provide an additional layer of protection for the Brahmos launch installations with ground troops and mobile air defence systems.
Maybe but on paper if a AD capability is acquired specifically to protect Brahmos; it should be navy operated. Having said that; the challenges in actually locating Brahmos would be tremendous; there is a very long coast line; the unit would be constantly relocating; there would be a number of pre registered launch sites in Luzon and Palawan and when possible the unit would be on strict emission control. There is also the fact that if Brahmos was actually used in anger it would be in a full blown conflict and priority for the Chinse forces would be in dealing with the Americans.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
The OPVs will be armed with a 76-mm main gun, two 30-mm, and two 12,7-mm guns. The video also shows that the new OPVs will be equipped with a helipad for 10-ton helicopters, but will not have a hangar to house the helicopter.
No much other details arr given, but it is to be expected that the 30 mm gun will be the Aselsan SMASH and the 12,7 mm RCWS the Aselsan STAMP.

 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group

HHI being selected for 6 OPV project. This basically even with bit 'drama' before on the Light Frigate project, HHI bag 2 Light Frigate, 2 Corvette and 6 OPV. Question will be if the next administration will not defered the contract signed by end of this administration term.
 

Arji

Active Member
Question will be if the next administration will not defered the contract signed by end of this administration term
I can see Lobredo continuing this, Marcos though? Didn't he basically have the same stance to China as 2020s Duterte?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Didn't he basically have the same stance to China as 2020s Duterte?
All I can say, don't underestimate ROK lobby. Just like Japan, they always tied their lobby on other investment packages.


Max Defense FB full of comments shown dissatisfied on another HHI choose. In the end if building on local Shipyards increase the cost that Pinoy administration will not want to cover, perhaps they will talking more on maintenance packages as alternative.

Still like many in ASEAN, any changes of administration can provide alternative actions. I guess it will depend on how solid the contract that duterte administration sign later on. Solid legal binding contract can occur hefty penalties if next administration want to deviate.

However if no solid financing term contract being signed by end of Duterte administration, then anything can happen.
 
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