NGSAR program? And few question..

tvrfan

New Member
Hey guys. I have a few questions. 1::: the army is looking for a m249 and m4 replacement with the NGSAR program. My question is... Will this gun be a LMG or an Assault rifle? Because some articles talking about an Assault rifle and others about LMG.

2::: Do you think LMGs will be replaced in future by Assault rifles or die out?? Because the NAVY also replaced their LMGs with M27 IAR. but is the M27 IAR specifically a LMG or an assault rifle?

3::: in future.. What do you think will LMGs or Assault Rifles be more important in war... And which would rather be replaceable a LMG or an Assault rifle?

Iam a gun nerd... So dont mislead my questions :D. Sorry for the bad English. A german here :).


Thx for replys
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hey guys. I have a few questions. 1::: the army is looking for a m249 and m4 replacement with the NGSAR program. My question is... Will this gun be a LMG or an Assault rifle? Because some articles talking about an Assault rifle and others about LMG.

2::: Do you think LMGs will be replaced in future by Assault rifles or die out?? Because the NAVY also replaced their LMGs with M27 IAR. but is the M27 IAR specifically a LMG or an assault rifle?

3::: in future.. What do you think will LMGs or Assault Rifles be more important in war... And which would rather be replaceable a LMG or an Assault rifle?

Iam a gun nerd... So dont mislead my questions :D. Sorry for the bad English. A german here :).


Thx for replys
Which army are you talking about?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Hey guys. I have a few questions. 1::: the army is looking for a m249 and m4 replacement with the NGSAR program. My question is... Will this gun be a LMG or an Assault rifle? Because some articles talking about an Assault rifle and others about LMG.

2::: Do you think LMGs will be replaced in future by Assault rifles or die out?? Because the NAVY also replaced their LMGs with M27 IAR. but is the M27 IAR specifically a LMG or an assault rifle?

3::: in future.. What do you think will LMGs or Assault Rifles be more important in war... And which would rather be replaceable a LMG or an Assault rifle?

Iam a gun nerd... So dont mislead my questions :D. Sorry for the bad English. A german here :).


Thx for replys
From what I have read about the US Army's NGSAR (Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle) programme, is that it is to replace the M249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) and the programme is not being run to replace the M4. I suspect that will happen in due time, if the NGSAR programme goes will. Part of the issue is that the US military has apparently been finding the 5.56 mm bullet to lack lethality at range, and it looking to introduce a larger & heavier bullet, without having to great an increase in the overall weight of the round.

If the US can develop a new bullet with the desired ballistic properties, coupled with the desired results from a new powder, and develop a lighter weight cartridge which will work with the NGSAR, then I would not be surprised if a new service rifle would be developed to make use of that same round. Existing weapons I do not think would be able to be converted (at least not without a significant amount of work) since apparently some of the goals for the new round is lethal effective range out to 600 yds, and a chamber pressure up to about twice the chamber pressure of current 5.56 x 45 mm rounds.

As for the future, LMG's and rifles are complementary since they are not used in exactly the same way, or for exactly the same role. By way of example, it seems one of the current programme requirements is for an empty (no ammunition) NGSAR weight of 12 lbs. which is about 50% greater than the empty weight of an M16 rifle, and more than 50% (7 lbs. 5 oz.) for an M4 loaded with a 30 round magazine. From what I have come across, I have not been able to determine whether the NGSAR is to be magazine or belt-fed, or there could be a requirement for both options like on the M249. In any case, the requirements suggest that the NGSAR might require the ability to do barrel changes either in the midst or immediately after a firefight, which is not a capability required of rifles to my knowledge.
 

tvrfan

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Which army are you talking about?
I was talking about the US army :).


From what I have read about the US Army's NGSAR (Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle) programme, is that it is to replace the M249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) and the programme is not being run to replace the M4. I suspect that will happen in due time, if the NGSAR programme goes will. Part of the issue is that the US military has apparently been finding the 5.56 mm bullet to lack lethality at range, and it looking to introduce a larger & heavier bullet, without having to great an increase in the overall weight of the round.

If the US can develop a new bullet with the desired ballistic properties, coupled with the desired results from a new powder, and develop a lighter weight cartridge which will work with the NGSAR, then I would not be surprised if a new service rifle would be developed to make use of that same round. Existing weapons I do not think would be able to be converted (at least not without a significant amount of work) since apparently some of the goals for the new round is lethal effective range out to 600 yds, and a chamber pressure up to about twice the chamber pressure of current 5.56 x 45 mm rounds.

As for the future, LMG's and rifles are complementary since they are not used in exactly the same way, or for exactly the same role. By way of example, it seems one of the current programme requirements is for an empty (no ammunition) NGSAR weight of 12 lbs. which is about 50% greater than the empty weight of an M16 rifle, and more than 50% (7 lbs. 5 oz.) for an M4 loaded with a 30 round magazine. From what I have come across, I have not been able to determine whether the NGSAR is to be magazine or belt-fed, or there could be a requirement for both options like on the M249. In any case, the requirements suggest that the NGSAR might require the ability to do barrel changes either in the midst or immediately after a firefight, which is not a capability required of rifles to my knowledge.

So do you think the NGSAR will be a LMG? Ive read they will go for magazine fed instead of belt fed
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
So do you think the NGSAR will be a LMG? Ive read they will go for magazine fed instead of belt fed
My interpretation of the programme is that the NGSAR will be a SAW or LMG issued at the squad level, as opposed to something like the MAG-58/M240 which is a light/medium/GP MG.

One key question which I do not have sufficient information about is what the expected volume of fire will be. From what I have read, there is a need for 16+ minutes of sustained fire before requiring a barrel change. That, to me at least, suggests employment more like a SAW or LMG because AFAIK infantry do not routinely carry spare/replacement barrels for their rifles, or expect to engage in so much sustained fire as to require changing rifle barrels. Also since the NGSAR is to be capable of semi- and fully-automatic fire, just relying upon a 30 round magazine will require frequent reloading, not unlike happened with the M1918 BAR. Also some images which have come up when searching for the NGSAR show the LSAT MG which does appear to be belt-fed.

On a related side note, the US Army did not start adopting the IAR like the USMC did, due to the predicted drop in firepower a US Army squad would have from replacing the M249 with an IAR. This was due to the difference in squad size between the US Army and USMC, with the Army having a 9-man squad with two fire teams, while the USMC has a 13-man squad with three fire teams, and the impact the reduced volume of sustained fire from a magazine-fed automatic rifle would have when compared with the volume of sustained fire a belt-fed SAW or LMG could provide.

Also from other reading, a replacement for the M4 will ultimately be sought, once a new round is settled upon for the NGSAR, so that the M4 replacement can be chambered for the same round as the NGSAR.
 

tvrfan

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
Ooh ok :). But what i dont understand is that. Isnt the M27 IAR a sort of LMG too instead of an assault rifle? Because some site says its a LMG based on the M416. Other say its an assault rifle
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Ooh ok :). But what i dont understand is that. Isnt the M27 IAR a sort of LMG too instead of an assault rifle? Because some site says its a LMG based on the M416. Other say its an assault rifle
The M27 is an IAR, which is a magazine-fed (as opposed to belt-fed or magazine/belt-fed) automatic rifle, which puts it into a category like the M1918 BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) and in between modern assault riles and SAW/LMG's in terms of capabilities. The M27 to my understanding can provide a greater volume of fire than an assault rifle can (due to action and barrel design I believe) but cannot manage the sustained volume an M249 can because the feed is a NATO standard 30 round magazine, as opposed to a 200 round belt. The M27 is also a lighter weapon overall, with an empty weight less than half the empty weight of most versions of the M249, but more than a loaded M4 or the larger & heavier M16.

One has to keep in mind that the USMC has a different organization and uses different doctrine from the US Army, so the M27 IAR can take the place of some M249's that USMC units used to have, but it is not a direct and complete replacement.
 
Top