Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's actually not so much that they're hiding them - the two ships are quite visible in port, and sometimes pulling out for little tours as well. They're all carrying their pennant numbers already too.

It's just that apparently, the Navy has so far neglected to actually commission them. And that they're sitting in the wrong port of course, nowhere near their future homeport.

Latest out of the rumour mill (from late November) is that it's planned to commission F260 Braunschweig sometime this month. Of course, the same rumour mill says "i'll believe it when i see it". Braunschweig was supposed to commission in May, and was planned (and cancelled) for a EX deployment in October. No word about F261 Magdeburg so far, which was supposed to commission in July or August.

---

Ah, well, back to France.

It seems that in recent exercises, the Mistrals are increasily taking over the role of a C3I ship for flotillas. Ie coordinating the attached escorts even in AAW and ASW situations.
An interesting approach i think, and, for France, a step away from somewhat-multifunctional dedicated ASW/AAW escorts towards a network-centric approach finally.
 
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  • #23
DCNS is developing their new Sylver A35 launcher. The launcher was designed for the VL Mica, developed by MBDA, but has also been designed to carry the Crotale VT1 by Thales. The VL Crotale is still in the planning stage. Each A35 launcher has a length of 4 meters, and it has 4 missile silos. The A35 has been designed to operate on low and medium tonnage vessels. They can also operate on larger tonnage vessels like the Mistral class.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=106352

* Thales and MBDA want the DGA to finance VL Crotale tests in 2009.

The next White Paper on Defense should be heavy with Naval Procurement programs.

Category
Withdrawal from active service *
Admission to active service **

Carrier
1 PA2 2015**

ASW FFGs and Avsios
2 ASW FFG type F 67 (Tourville 2011*, De Grasse 2012*)

3 ASW FFG type F70 (Dupleix 2012*, Montcalm 2013*, Jean de Vienne 2015*) 3

4 A 69 avisos (LV Le Hénaff 2013*, LV Lavallée 2014*, CDT L'Herminier 2014*, PM L'Her 2015*)

8 FREMM (6 ASW FREMM, 2 LA FREMM) 2011/2015**

Logistics Ships

2 AOR (Meuse 2010*, Var 2012*)
1 Jules Verne 2012*

3 Logistic Vessels (2012/2015)**

Sovereignty Ships

1 Albatros 2015*

10 P400 2011/2013*

4 Batral 2011/2014*

10 P400 NG (2011/2013)**

1 Albatros Replacement**

Batral Replacements**

Mine sweeper

1 Loire 2008 2008*
1 Mine Warship NG 2015**

Naval Aviation

6 Atlantic 2 *

41 Rafale M**

5 Maritime surveillance aircraft (maybe based on A319)**

18 NH90**


Possible Naval Procurement Projects from 2015-2027 (*procurement numbers may be cut)
6 Barracudas
2 AAW FFG FREDA
2 ASW FREMM AND 7 LA FREMM*
2 AOR
Mine Warships NG
1 LPD Next Generation ( Replacement for Foudre 2020 withdrawal date)
6 Presence Vessels ( Replacements for the Floreal Class)

There is no money for a 3rd Mistral type ship.
 
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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
The White Paper on Defense and National Security should be very interesting. The LA FREMM needs a 127mm gun for amphibous landing support. I hope the French MOD appropriates money, for the upgrade of the La Fayettes ASW and AAW systems. One of the ASW FREMM could be canceled, the money would go to upgrading La Fayettes and adding a 127mm gun to the rest of the LA FREMM.The upgrades would take place from 2010-2015. This would be a very cheap solution, the Gowind doesn't have the range and potential ASW capabilities of the La Fayettes. The Taiwanese La Fayettes are similar to French La Fayettes, but they carry a towed sonar system.

The MN would have 12 ASW vessels for the FOST, CBGs, and AGs. The MN would have 7 ASW and 7 LA FREMMs. The two FREDA will use the same hull as the FREMM. Morrocco is buying one FREMM, so the full FREMM program size would stay at 27. This would be a good plan, if the FREMM and FREDA programs are fully financed.

7 ASW FREMM
7 LA FREMM
2 FREDA
5 Upgraded La Fayettes
1 ASW FREMM (Morrocco)

The contract signings for the last 9 FREMMS are in 2011 and 2013.
 
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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Some thoughts, not really all fitting together...

The (new) SSBNs have been eating up money, quite literally. The Le Triomphant class apparently has had a total program cost of some €13 billion (2002 estimate) for the four subs! You could buy 25 Horizons for that money easily, and still have a billion or so left.
The total program cost of the Le Triomphant and M51 programs, from 1985 to 2005 has been nearly €25 billion.

(meretmarine)
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The total program cost of the Le Triomphant and M51 programs, from 1985 to 2005 has been nearly €25 billion.
(meretmarine)
Afaik, that figure would also include:
- the M45 program (which was? around 2.5 billion i'd guess?)
- the refit of L'Inflexible from M4B to M45 (ok, that's minor).

And presumably also the entire development and production of TN-75 and the failed development of TNO, as both programs closely tie into this.
 

Padfoot

New Member
Which brings us to another interesting observation.:

That since 1980 the Royal Navy has seen its escort force reduced from 66 combatants to 25 or a 62% reduction.

The Marine Nationale from 48(including the cruiser Colbert) combatants to 33 only a 31% reduction.

I included the two new Horizon replacments for the Suffrens in the above calculations.

Although to be sure the nine A-69s, 6 Floreal and 5 La Fayettes all have severe combat limitations.

Their ASW/AAW capability is either extremely limited or nonexistent depending on the class.

Any thoughts?

Can the 10 1100 ton D'Estienne d'Orves class corvettes really be classed as escorts? I mean you wouldn't send to the other side of the world to fight in a war, would you?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #31
Can the 10 1100 ton D'Estienne d'Orves class corvettes really be classed as escorts? I mean you wouldn't send to the other side of the world to fight in a war, would you?
D'Estienne d' Orves class corvettes have escorted 3 humanitarian convoys destined for Somalia;the last convoy arrived on December 17. They were protecting the convoys from pirates.
 
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rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The USN and Royal Navy rejected escorts of approx. this size since the late 1950s but the MN A-69s have given good service since replacing the 1950s, analogues of the USN and RN built ships, small frigates .

But the French have also rejected further construction of this sized escorts maybe with the recent experiences they will change their minds.

While relatively cheap to build, operate, man and mantain they have limited warfighting capabliities.

Apparently they are to be nominally replaced by the FREMM program.

The FREMMs really should replace the three F-67, seven F-70, two C-70 & five La Fayettes IMHO.

However if the MN wants to build more capable ships such as the FREMM as replacements for those as well as the A-69s then go for it.

Originally if IIRC the FREMMs were to replace the two F-67, six F-70 and the nine remaining A-69s. 17 Total.

The only real issue I have is that the A-69s have no organic helo.

As Ive said before though an OPV (some call it a frigate) like the Floreals could (Should?) be built as replacements.

Those ships too have been quite useful to the MN.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
...l.

The only real issue I have is that the A-69s have no organic helo.

As Ive said before though an OPV (some call it a frigate) like the Floreals could (Should?) be built as replacements.

Those ships too have been quite useful to the MN.
The new Dutch patrol ships look interesting. One curious feature is that although lightly armed (76mm & a couple of MGs), they have a rather good sensor suite.
 

rickusn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
"The new Dutch patrol ships look interesting. One curious feature is that although lightly armed (76mm & a couple of MGs), they have a rather good sensor suite."

Yes they are.

And yes Im a bit surprised(as I said before) no AAW missile system is fitted for at least point defence.

Yes they do but then radar development and manufacture is a major defence industry in The Netherland

http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/weapon_control/thales5/

And look at the older ubiquitous egg.

So not surprising to me.

Im looking fwd to see how this platform develops.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
...
And yes Im a bit surprised(as I said before) no AAW missile system is fitted for at least point defence...
Im looking fwd to see how this platform develops.
Yes, & it's not obvious where they'd put one. IIRC, you said something similar in the thread on this class.

Yes indeed. I mentioned it here because I thought that it looks like a very good design for the "colonial policing" role of the Floreals. I doubt the French would buy a foreign design outright, but the MN & French shipbuilders might be looking at it with interest.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The discussion on the A69 corvettes is quite interesting. They were initially conceived as coastal ASW light escorts. However then South Africa wanted 3, although because of sanctions they ended up in Argentina after renegotiations. Since then they have participated in several missions such as Haiti patrol with the UN. Turkey has bought 6 of the former French A69s and uses them for coastal patrol.

On a wider perspective, the French use large escort destroyers (actually FFGs) to escort carriers and amphibs, smaller frigates for hot conflicts overseas (Lafayettes) and patrol ships for the overseas territories and for showing the flag (Floreal OPVs).

If the French Navy cannot afford all the 17 FREMMs, which seems certain at this point (cost of PA2 and SSNs will reduce FREMMs to 13, probably including 2 air defence variants called FREDA), then they should think about building GOWINDs to replace the remaining A69s.

Ideal structure IMHO of the escort force :

11 ASW and LA (land attack) FREMMs
2 AAW FREMMs
2 Jean Bart AAW FFGs to be replaced around 2020 by 2 more AAW FREMMs
4 Gowind
5 Lafayette overseas light FFGs
6 Floreal 'colonial' OPVs

cheers
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #37
Ideal structure IMHO of the escort force :

11 ASW and LA (land attack) FREMMs
2 AAW FREMMs
2 Jean Bart AAW FFGs to be replaced around 2020 by 2 more AAW FREMMs
4 Gowind
5 Lafayette overseas light FFGs
6 Floreal 'colonial' OPVs

cheers

If the total number of FREMMs are reduced to 13, the MN should upgrade the La Fayettes. The Gowinds do not have the range and potential ASW capabilities of the La Fayettes. The upgrades would be far cheaper than buying 4 Gowinds. The MN must renew the majority of its fleet, during the next 20 years. La Fayettes will be decommissioned in 2026-2031. Nearly all of the MNs major renewal programs should be over by 2028. The MN should have the funds to replace the La Fayettes by then.

Category
Withdrawal from active service *
Admission to active service **

Carrier
1 PA2 2015**

ASW FFGs and Avsios
2 ASW FFG type F 67 (Tourville 2011*, De Grasse 2012*)

3 ASW FFG type F70 (Dupleix 2012*, Montcalm 2013*, Jean de Vienne 2015*) 3

4 A 69 avisos (LV Le Hénaff 2013*, LV Lavallée 2014*, CDT L'Herminier 2014*, PM L'Her 2015*)

8 FREMM (6 ASW FREMM, 2 LA FREMM) 2011/2015**

Logistics Ships

2 AOR (Meuse 2010*, Var 2012*)
1 Jules Verne 2012*

3 Logistic Vessels (2012/2015)**

Sovereignty Ships

1 Albatros 2015*

10 P400 2011/2013*

4 Batral 2011/2014*

10 P400 NG (2011/2013)**

1 Albatros Replacement**

Batral Replacements**

Mine sweeper

1 Loire 2008 2008*
1 Mine Warship NG 2015**

Naval Aviation

6 Atlantic 2 *

41 Rafale M**

5 Maritime surveillance aircraft (maybe based on A319)**

18 NH90**


Possible Naval Procurement Projects from 2015-2027 (*procurement numbers may be cut)
6 Barracudas
2 AAW FFG FREDA
2 ASW FREMM AND 7 LA FREMM*
2 AOR
Mine Warships NG
1 LPD Next Generation ( Replacement for Foudre 2020 withdrawal date)
6 Presence Vessels ( Replacements for the Floreal Class)
 
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contedicavour

New Member
It depends what you want to do with the Gowinds. Patrolling the Med or the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf doesn't require long range ships with heavy ASW assets.
Besides, if you modernize the Lafayettes you can easily replace the Crotale NG with Aster-15, but placing a Herakles is a radical restructuring. Adding serious ASW would require VDS and towed array low frequency active/passive sonar. All is feasible for sure, but expensive.
An alternative could be to develop something in between FREMM and Gowind and to do a joint Italian-French programme to gain some scale. While the Italian corvettes and light frigates are still recent (Artigliere and Minerva classes) we'll eventually have to replace them.

On verra bien...

cheers
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #39
It depends what you want to do with the Gowinds. Patrolling the Med or the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf doesn't require long range ships with heavy ASW assets.
Besides, if you modernize the Lafayettes you can easily replace the Crotale NG with Aster-15, but placing a Herakles is a radical restructuring. Adding serious ASW would require VDS and towed array low frequency active/passive sonar. All is feasible for sure, but expensive.
An alternative could be to develop something in between FREMM and Gowind and to do a joint Italian-French programme to gain some scale. While the Italian corvettes and light frigates are still recent (Artigliere and Minerva classes) we'll eventually have to replace them.

On verra bien...

cheers
The VL Mica with the Arabel radar would be a good combination. The MN could also use VL Crotale, and just upgrade the La Fayettes ASW systems.
The La Fayettes would have to have ASW systems in the 13 FREMM scenario. Six FREMMS would be ASW, five would be LA, and two would be FREDAs.The FOST has 3 to 4 ASW FFGs assigned to it. The upgraded Lafayettes or ASW FREMMS could serve with the FOST. The Lafayettes would give the MN more flexibility. It would cost alot more to build 4 Gowinds, then it would cost to upgrade the La Fayettes.

Possible MN Surface Fleet

2 Horizon
2 FREDA
6 ASW FREMM
5 LA FREMM
5 La Fayettes
 
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