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Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by Spacearrow99, Dec 8, 2007.

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  1. Spacearrow99

    Spacearrow99 Member

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    The Bulgarians have pushed back the Gowind deal with France.They are buying some old upgraded Belgium frigates. Sarko has to be very embarrassed, Muammar al-Gaddafi is visiting Paris this Monday. Seif el-Islam Gaddafi, a son of the colonel's, said that they want to buy alot of military equipment, in a interview with Le Figaro.

    The Jeanne D'Arc may be replace by a ferry. The plan would be very expense. I don't like the plan because of the expense.

    http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=106095

    The Dupleix, Montcalm, and Jean de Vienne are Georges Leygues class frigates; they're armed with 2 sadrals each. The sadrals should be removed from the GL class ships, and be installed on Horizons and Mistrals. The 3 GL class frigates would then replace the sadrals with simbads; they also have 2 30mm mausers each on abroad them.
     
  2. harryriedl

    harryriedl Active Member

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    Well this threads been a longtime in comming. i thought there was a plan to a cut down Minstral class as a JdA replacement not a ferry [was that plan cut due to costs]
     
  3. Spacearrow99

    Spacearrow99 Member

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    According to estimates from the French Ministry of Defense, it lacks 5 billion euros to finance its main projects. The PA2, Barracuda, Fremm, Rafale, NH90, M51, and Scalp Naval projects take priorty over any other projects. The estimated cost of a third Mistral type vessel would be 150 million euros. The MN general staff, knows that there is no money for a third Mistral type ship. There plan is to charter a ferry for six months per year.
     
  4. rickusn

    rickusn Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    In 1999 it was said that Mistral was being built to replace Jeanne de Arc.

    Whatever happened to that plan?

    Also since the 1950s the MN order of battle has been:

    18 Destroyers- T-47/T-53 classes
    9 Colonial Patrol Frigates- Commandant Riviere class(replacement program for the aborted E54 program)
    18 ASW Frigates-E50/E52 classes

    Later in 1967/70 the two Suffren AAW ships were added to the mix.

    Total 47

    In 1972 the cruiser Colbert returend to service after an extensive conversion refit to outfit her with the NMasurca AAW system found on the new Suffren AAW destroyers.

    Beginning in the 1970s the nominal replacement programs began to bear fruit;

    1 C65 class
    3 F67 class
    17 A 69 class(replaced E-50/52 class)
    7 F70 class
    2 C 70 class
    6 Floreal class(replaced Commandante Riviere class)
    5 La Fayette class
    2 Horizon class(replacing Suffren)

    Total 43

    One E50-52 not replaced and three Commandante Riviere not replaced.

    The sixth La Fayette the nominal replacement for the Aconit was canceled in 1996 and the that name was given toi the fourth La Fayette(formerly named Jaureguiberry).

    The cruiser Colbert was decommissioned in 1991 six years early w/o replacement.

    Type C 65 class ship Aconit decommissioned in 1997.

    In 1997/99 four A-69 units were decommissioned w/o replacment

    In 1999 one Type F67, the unmodernized Dugay-Trouin, was decommissioned in 1999 w/o replacement.

    Total 2000

    2 Suffren AAW(To be replaced by Horizon)
    13 A-69
    2 Type F-67
    7 Type F70
    2 Type C 70
    6 Floreal
    5 La Fayette

    Total 37

    Four more A-69s decommissioned w/o replacement in 2000/2

    Total 33 (32 if you include the Suffren which decommissioned in 2001 longgg before her Horizon replacement entered service)

    The FREMM class will soon begin replacing the other two Type F67 and F 70 class warships.

    And ostensibly eventually the A-69 class.

    Which brings me to my second question:

    Why? or in other words why not something more along the lines of the Floreal or even La Fayette?

    A FREMM variant is also being planned as a replacement for the two Type C70 AAW destroyers in liu of a canceled plan for two more Horizons.

    Which brings us to another interesting observation.:

    That since 1980 the Royal Navy has seen its escort force reduced from 66 combatants to 25 or a 62% reduction.

    The Marine Nationale from 48(including the cruiser Colbert) combatants to 33 only a 31% reduction.

    I included the two new Horizon replacments for the Suffrens in the above calculations.

    Although to be sure the nine A-69s, 6 Floreal and 5 La Fayettes all have severe combat limitations.

    Their ASW/AAW capability is either extremely limited or nonexistent depending on the class.

    Any thoughts?
     
  5. rickusn

    rickusn Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Harry posted this on another discussion site:

    Originally Posted by harryRIEDL
    The French Aéronavale will embark for the first time on an American aircraft carrier. Without a second aircraft carrier, while Charles stopped for maintenance for eighteen months, pilots of Rafale and Hawkeye are going to train in July 2008 aboard the USS Roosevelt off Norfolk, in the Atlantic. "We are setting up this operation with the American Navy" said the French Navy Office. A dozen airplanes are to be deployed on Roosevelt: six to eight Rafales of the flotilla 12 F and two Hawkeyes of the flotilla 4F.

    For the Navy, it is a simple "technical exchanges". So far, FN aircraft could not land on Americans carriers. But since last July, as we announced then on this blog (see photo), the Rafale F2 have the capacity to do so after validating their alignment system. There are very few technical obstacles, since Charles is equipped with catapults and arresting wires made in the United States. Since the nineties, French navy pilots are trained in the United States, in the absence of trainer aircraft for learning carrier landing techniques.

    The newsletter TTU, which reveals information this week, sees in this case "evidence of warming in Franco-American relations and the willingness of President Nicolas Sarkozy to ensure that France regains its place in the "Otan". TTU said that this "initiative is strongly encouraged by Craig Stapleton, the United States Ambassador to France." Boarding a dozen planes french aboard an American is indeed never seen before!

    This operation will backfire against the interests of the French Navy. It gives arguments to the opponents of the construction of a second aircraft carrier (PA2), many in the upper héirarchy of the military. If the French can operate their Flotillas from the large American carriers in the event of an international crisis and non-availability of Charles, France can possibly save three billion euros, the cost of PA2. As for national independence ...
    http://secretdefense.blogs.liberatio...ilotes-de.html

     
  6. Grand Danois

    Grand Danois Entertainer

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    Link doesn't work.
     
  7. rickusn

    rickusn Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  8. Grand Danois

    Grand Danois Entertainer

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  9. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Some thoughts, not really all fitting together...

    The wartime LPH role of Jeanne d'Arc (as commando and ASW helo carrier) realistically has already been taken over by Mistral and Tonnere, which represent a big increase in particular for the commando carrier role really.

    Of course using a ferry as a replacement would require a realignment of the entire French training concept - the cadets, in the current regimen, form groups that (for 6 months!) rotate through about a dozen or so different stations on a "real" warship including weapons etc (each about 2 weeks), something not really possible with a ferry. While this regimen includes stations aboard the accompanying escort (for variety), the focus of training is still onboard Jeanne d'Arc herself.

    The (new) SSBNs have been eating up money, quite literally. The Le Triomphant class apparently has had a total program cost of some €13 billion (2002 estimate) for the four subs! You could buy 25 Horizons for that money easily, and still have a billion or so left.

    Recent cuts in MN escorts seemed - in my opinion - to center around the forces originally tasked with the Atlantic Ocean, with the realignment of the MN in 1999 (formation of the Force d'Action Navale instead of standing "groups").
    In particular the former GASM Atlantic Ocean ASW Flotilla, which was dissolved the same year, saw plenty of its units decommissioned without replacement - 5 out of 11 ships (1 F65, 1 F67, 3 A69) in the flotilla decommed or sold before 2002.

    The Floreals are presence OPVs, not so much frigates/escorts. Within the overseas groups they're stationed with (South Indian Ocean, South-West Pacific), they do make a lot of sense. For other stuff, they wouldn't.
    The same cannot necessarily be said for the Lafayettes, which are castrated frigates originally meant to be armed for more suitable for the role they fill (medium-intensity presence and light escorts).

    The A69 are overdue for replacement imo. Not because of their age, but because they can't do much within the realigned MN. Afaik, some primary missions nowadays include: patrolling the nearby waters (Mediterranean, Atlantic, Channel), including some escorting there; presence mission in Djibouti; supporting FOST.
    The last one would easily be filled by the FREMM ASW, and with some money you could always uparm the sixth Floreal (the only one not stationed overseas) somewhat and shift her from the Channel to Djibouti.
    The patrol role is something that really needs replacement in some way, maybe a class of OPVs similar to the Floreal (but different of course) or even some cheaper corvettes with limited ASW/AAW capabilities - money talks there realistically.

    Like in other European nations, a lot of money currently seems to be invested in necessary upgrade/renewal programs for other services - i'm talking about e.g. VBCI (€3b), Tiger (€4b, if all are bought), Rafale (€10b over entire production). These programs will all be paid off sometime in the mid of the next decade at the latest, so - as in other nations - i'd expect some shifting in funding towards the Navy at that point. Not with the next 2009-2013 Military Funding Plan that will handle FREMM in particular, but maybe with the 2014-2018 plan. Of course France planning out everything in 5-Year-Plans doesn't exactly give it flexibility in these matters.
     
  10. rickusn

    rickusn Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    "The Floreals are presence OPVs, not so much frigates/escorts."

    Yes good point I fialed to mention but I did include them because they were the replacements for the Commandante Riviere funvtion of overseas possession patrol.

    Excellent clarification of some of the reductions:

    "Recent cuts in MN escorts seemed - in my opinion - to center around the forces originally tasked with the Atlantic Ocean, with the realignment of the MN in 1999 (formation of the Force d'Action Navale instead of standing "groups").
    In particular the former GASM Atlantic Ocean ASW Flotilla, which was dissolved the same year, saw plenty of its units decommissioned without replacement - 5 out of 11 ships (1 F65, 1 F67, 3 A69) in the flotilla decommed or sold before 2002."

    On A-69:

    "The patrol role is something that really needs replacement in some way, maybe a class of OPVs similar to the Floreal (but different of course) or even some cheaper corvettes with limited ASW/AAW capabilities - money talks there realistically."

    Which brings us back to one of my questions.:

    Why FREMM?

    Although this would allow the La Fayettes to assume the patrol role(sans ASW) while the FREMMs would be better suited than the La Fayettes for Fleet type roles and missions.

    Maybe thats the answer?
     
  11. Spacearrow99

    Spacearrow99 Member

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    The PA2 project money has already been allocated. The Sarkozy government supports the PA2 project, so it will probably get built. France could be drawn into a war by stationing their Rafales on a American carrier.

    The Floreals are built to commerical standards; they're the French equivalent of U. S. Coast Guard cutters. The La Fayettes are presence vessels. They may get VL Crotale during their mid-life refit. If the Fremm numbers are cut, then the MN wil probably upgrade the La Fayettes with ASW systems.

    The MNs major surface combatants are overworked. The MN doesn't have a sufficient number of FFGs to rotate properly for missions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  12. rickusn

    rickusn Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    "The Floreals are built to commerical standards"

    Yes they are but those standards from what Ive been told are tighter than military standards in some areas, equivilant in others and less in others particularly compartmentalization.

    And building to such standards main purpose is to reduce costs
    NOT to build an inferior ship.

    Now if you mean they shouldnt be considered as combatants then they shouldnt be armed with a 100mm gun, exocet missiles and a provision for AAW point defense missiles along with a capability to operate, control and service an armed helicopter.

    That would be inviting trouble and quite risky.

    Take a look at the USN OHPerry FFG 7 class frigates for a comparison on weapons.: One poorly sited 76mm gun, one CIWS, 6 self-defense ASW TT and one or two armed helos. And these are ships that deploy in USN battlegroups.

    US high-endurance and medium endurance cutters are built with a wartime escort mission in mind. Therfore they are considerd combatants.

    So if you choose to downplay the Floreals by comparing them to USCG cutters I dont see the efficacy of such a position.

    "The MNs major surface combatants are overworked. The MN doesn't have a sufficient number of FFGs to rotate properly for missions."

    Do you have list of missions that have been taxing the "Major MN surface combatants"?

    AT the moment I see two A-69s and one La Fayette in the IO.

    I havent seen alot on other MN ships deployments so am really interested.
     
  13. Spacearrow99

    Spacearrow99 Member

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    This an article about the Navy's work rate compared to other navies.
    You can debate the numbers. The MN FFGs workload should be very high when consider all their duties;they protect the French CBG and the 4 SSBNs. The French FFGs have presence missions, and one is assigned to the JDA.

    3 or 4 ASW FFGs assigned to the 4 SSBNs
    1 ASW FFG assigned to the JDA

    http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=105366
     
  14. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Let's see, recent deployments (since CdG went into refit)...

    AAW frigates: both were in NATO EX Brilliant Midas in October, and other maneuvers before and after.

    ASW frigates: one in Brilliant Midas, one in a ASW EX (same month), one returning from TF150, one in JDA (?), presumably 3 with FOST (would be classified).

    ASW destroyers: one in that ASW EX. The other one was in a long refit until May this year, no idea what she's doing now.

    Lafayettes: One on anti-drug-runner patrol in Western Mediterranean, one just deployed to TF150.
    No idea where the other three are.

    Floreals: all forward-deployed right now: Floreal and Nivose in ALINDIEN, Prairial and Vendemiaire in ALPACI (both on Pacific port tour), currently Germinal and Ventose in the Antilles on anti-drug patrol (i think Ventose is replaced by Germinal there though, and returns to Brest).

    Avisos: at least one recently patrolling near Toulon, one did that ASW EX above, two in TF150 (one also ASW EX), one just returning from TF150, one just returning from mission off West/Central Africa.
    Leaves three somewhere else.

    (above assembled from Netmarine, there are more up-to-date sources of course)

    Some EX in the last three months with French participation:
    - AAW EX with Spain in November
    - Brilliant Midas in October, large NATO amphibious EX
    - a ASW SPONTEX in Atlantic in October, small French flotilla as ASW escort against British SSN
    - Joint AAW EX Gabian: AAW frigates with an AWACS and Tonnerre coordinating
    - Panamax: large EX organized by US in Caribbean, one Floreal took part

    edit:

    FOST are the SSBNs, with a (usual) four-for-four deployment, i'd presume De Grasse, the second ASW DDG, deployed there as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  15. Spacearrow99

    Spacearrow99 Member

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    The White Paper of Defense will be released in March 2008; it should 've information about the FREDA study in it. According to the DCN is 550 M € is the estimated cost of a FREDA, compared to 800 M € for a Horizon. The FREDAs would replace the Cassards after 2018.
     
  16. swerve

    swerve Super Moderator

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    Was that ever officially stated? All I've ever heard is that Mistral & Tonnerre were to replace the old LPDs Ouragan & Orage, which is what has now happened.

    The replacement proposals for JdA I've heard include a 3rd Mistral, & a similar but smaller ship.
     
  17. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    With help from the current issue of Marineforum, as well as some more , here's a try at the disposition of most of the French fleet - the combat ships stationed at Toulon and Brest:

    Brest: on missions
    a. LV Lavallée A69 FFL, Mission Corymbe 89
    b. PM L'Her A69 FFL, TF150
    e. Rari patrol tug, Central Atlantic/Carribean Patrol

    Toulon: on missions
    a. Bougainville LSL, Mission Corymbe 90
    b. Commandant Ducuing A69 FFL, TF150
    c. Guepratte Lafayette FFG, TF150
    d. Germinal Floreal FFL, Central Atlantic/Carribean Patrol


    Training Group, Brest
    I. Jeanne d'Arc, CGH, Training Ship
    II. Georges Leygues, DDG, Training Group Escort

    Guardian Force for FOST/SSBNs, Brest
    I. Tourville classe DDGs, ASW
    ....(Tourville, De Grasse)
    II. Georges Leygues DDGs, all MLU:ASW-Focus (!)
    ....(Latouche-Treville, Primauguet, La Motte-Piquet)
    III. A69 FFLs, ASW
    ....(Cdt Blaison, Cdt L'Herminier, LV Le Hénaff)

    And this should be the most interesting part for people here:

    Toulon FAN Escorts (available on short notice)
    I. Cassard class DDGs, AAW
    ....(Cassard, Jean Bart)
    II. Georges Leygues DDGs, all MLU:ASuW-Focus (!)
    ....(Jean de Vienne, Montcalm, Dupleix)
    III. Lafayette FFGs, ASuW
    ....(Lafayette, Surcouf, Courbet, Aconit)
    IV. A69 FFLs, ASW
    ....(Cdt Bouan, Cdt Birot, EV Jacoubet)
     
  18. harryriedl

    harryriedl Active Member

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    one slightly concerning thing about the PA2 is the lack of a name [once a ship has a name it becomes much more real].
     
  19. rickusn

    rickusn Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Thanks for the info Kato.

    Had some more questions and a coupla minor corrections they were/are not overly important anyway Im having trouble posting.

    So no in-depth comments from me for awhile.

    When will you be posting something new on your blog?

    Swerve: I tried to post a response but every time I hit the submit button it comes up not logged in when I am and then of course my post disappears into never never land. Check out Combat Fleets 2000 or 2005.

    The second time I attempted to go to preview so I could copy it before submitting but even that doesnt work now as it has before.

    Plus Im PMing you with another post I find objectionable and IMHO does this board no credit.

    SA 99: On sea times no argument but I did write a post reconciling the disparity but it too disappeared not once but twice.

    So until I feel comfortable again that my offerings wont disappear my responses will be short and lacking the info I would like to impart.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  20. kato

    kato Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    When i get around to finding out where the German Navy is hiding those two corvettes that were supposed to enter service in "Summer 2007".