Lets widen our Tactical/Strategic Knowhow

zulqarnain

New Member
Hi all Members,
I am starting this thread which is basically aimed at enlighting us on the explanation of various aspects related to tactics and strategy. As a matter of fact I, alone, can not make this thread a success and therefore contribution from all members is requested. The endeavour is to analyse the changes required in the face of an emerging new trend in the warfare.It can be in the form of merely discussions or supplementing your view point with the related links and articles etc... So here I go.....Hope you enjoy....
Question 1
What are the dictating factors for converting main effort into a secondary and auxialliary efforts and what are the planning and coordinating actions required during the transition period.Also explain the conditions which must be fulfilled for conversion of main into secondary/auxilliary efforts. Please shoot your responses
.


[ADMIN NOTE: You can't use BB CODES in thread subject.]
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Lets widen our Tactical/Strategic Knowhow

zulqarnain said:
Hi all Members,
I am starting this thread which is basically aimed at enlighting us on the explanation of various aspects related to tactics and strategy. As a matter of fact I, alone, can not make this thread a success and therefore contribution from all members is requested. The endeavour is to analyse the changes required in the face of an emerging new trend in the warfare.It can be in the form of merely discussions or supplementing your view point with the related links and articles etc... So here I go.....Hope you enjoy....
Question 1
What are the dictating factors for converting main effort into a secondary and auxialliary efforts and what are the planning and coordinating actions required during the transition period.Also explain the conditions which must be fulfilled for conversion of main into secondary/auxilliary efforts. Please shoot your responses
.
You haven't defined any scenario. This is a question without any background applied as a reference point.

1) define theatre
2) what consititutes "effort de main"
3) what constitutes a secondary stage
4) why is there a need for a secondary stage (ie explain the conflict scenario and the disposition of forces that have led to the primary stage)
5) Nature of the blue force
6) Nature of the red force
7) Describe the geopolitics of both sides.


It's far too open a question without parameters being set and defined.
 

zulqarnain

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Hi gf0012,
Sir, probably i have failed to make you understand the question. Well apparently its not a situation oriented question. simply it involved clarity of conceptual parameters. you have to view this question on the basic conceptual level. I understand the requirement you have posed however following simplification may help you and the others.
- In every tactical land operation a force is divided into a main and a secondary/auxiliary efforts, may it be attack or defence operation.
- A situation may arise where secondary effort starts bearing fruits of its effort and logically demands the exploitation of success against the adversary.
-For the time being lets keep it away from the scenarios like geopolitical, theatre and other factors which may not be conflicting to explain the concept in general.
- The efforts do not relate to the stages of the time as primary or secondary stage rather to the distribution of the forces directed to particular targets.
I hope now you shall be able to generate your response.
As far as my opinion is concerned, I think the question has following parts,
- Identification of conditions which dictate/necessitate conversion of main into secondary.
- What all planning and coordination is required during the phase of its transformation of secondary into main.
- What all are the pre-requisites for conversion of main into secondary.
I would like to put forward my view point as under,
- First the dictating conditions
-- first is that once secondary has gained considerable success that it necessitates exploitation of the same success which shall render the adversary face serious paralysis.
-- Main seems to be helpless in proving its potency even in future.
-Secondly the planning and coordination,
--Keep an intimate knowledge of the adversary's reaction capability to prepare the safe guards.
--Coordination well before the start of the operation to work out the contingencies of transformation so as to save time.
--General estimates of the casualty and logistic effort which shall be required to be catered for during the such transition.
--Taking care of the affiliation and aspect of command and control element.
-Third portion of the question relates to the pre-requisites which shall meet the requirement of conversion of secondary into main effort.
--Avalability of suitable communication infrastructure like the laterals and roads and tracks.
--Time available for the mission whether it allows such conversion.
-- The availability of considerable potent reserves which are initially placed as poised towards either of the efforts.
Now please build up your thought and give it a try to put us wise on the subject.
 

zulqarnain

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Hi Members,
It seems you all are not interested in this question. well the purpose was to generate some good discussion. I would request the forum members to introduce new threads in the forum even if they don't like this particular thread. however this should never mean that i am disappointed with the response. lets try another question.
-Please cast your opinion on the Netcentric Warfare and in what way it shall influence the current doctrine of the land forces? What should be the strategy of a country to fight against this positive form of asymmetry?
Thanks and take care.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Zulqarnain, there are 8 other forums full of activity. Please participate there, get comfy with the members so that its easier for them to understand your concerns. It will take time for this new forum (Military Strategy & Historical Events ) to get popular among DT members. ;)
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
zulqarnain said:
Hi gf0012,
Sir, probably i have failed to make you understand the question. Well apparently its not a situation oriented question. simply it involved clarity of conceptual parameters. you have to view this question on the basic conceptual level. I understand the requirement you have posed however following simplification may help you and the others.
- In every tactical land operation a force is divided into a main and a secondary/auxiliary efforts, may it be attack or defence operation.
- A situation may arise where secondary effort starts bearing fruits of its effort and logically demands the exploitation of success against the adversary.
-For the time being lets keep it away from the scenarios like geopolitical, theatre and other factors which may not be conflicting to explain the concept in general.
- The efforts do not relate to the stages of the time as primary or secondary stage rather to the distribution of the forces directed to particular targets.
I hope now you shall be able to generate your response.
As far as my opinion is concerned, I think the question has following parts,
- Identification of conditions which dictate/necessitate conversion of main into secondary.
- What all planning and coordination is required during the phase of its transformation of secondary into main.
- What all are the pre-requisites for conversion of main into secondary.
I would like to put forward my view point as under,
- First the dictating conditions
-- first is that once secondary has gained considerable success that it necessitates exploitation of the same success which shall render the adversary face serious paralysis.
-- Main seems to be helpless in proving its potency even in future.
-Secondly the planning and coordination,
--Keep an intimate knowledge of the adversary's reaction capability to prepare the safe guards.
--Coordination well before the start of the operation to work out the contingencies of transformation so as to save time.
--General estimates of the casualty and logistic effort which shall be required to be catered for during the such transition.
--Taking care of the affiliation and aspect of command and control element.
-Third portion of the question relates to the pre-requisites which shall meet the requirement of conversion of secondary into main effort.
--Avalability of suitable communication infrastructure like the laterals and roads and tracks.
--Time available for the mission whether it allows such conversion.
-- The availability of considerable potent reserves which are initially placed as poised towards either of the efforts.
Now please build up your thought and give it a try to put us wise on the subject.
Again your question is "jumping all over the place". Each land operation is different, and so is the requirement and tactics deployed. You simply cannot subsititude the same strategy and equipment you would use in mountain warfare scenario into a jungle one, because jungle warfare would require a whole set of new strategy. Before you ask these you must first give us a scenario which to base our response on. So before you ask, give us the following

-Theatre scenario which the operation will take place at

-Nations or factions and which are involved

-Size of conflict
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks path, for a moment I was wondering whether I was just being picky.. ;)
 

zulqarnain

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
Hi members,
I you all are right. My question had enough jumps. thanx to Pathfinder who is doing good to show me the guided path,lol. So here is the scenario.
-The theatre of operation is desert with temperate climate(Suppose)
-The Belligerent commanders are Rommel and Monty playing there trumps in North Africa.
-Rommel is operating with a corps plus depleted elements of Italians and is in the defensive mode whereas Monty has started off with his main and secondary/auxialliary efforts. i think this much would be as per your requirement. By the way Wisdom Comes After Suffering.
Enjoy.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
zulqarnain said:
Hi members,
I you all are right. My question had enough jumps. thanx to Pathfinder who is doing good to show me the guided path,lol. So here is the scenario.
-The theatre of operation is desert with temperate climate(Suppose)
-The Belligerent commanders are Rommel and Monty playing there trumps in North Africa.
-Rommel is operating with a corps plus depleted elements of Italians and is in the defensive mode whereas Monty has started off with his main and secondary/auxialliary efforts. i think this much would be as per your requirement. By the way Wisdom Comes After Suffering.
Enjoy.
lol, that's what im here for :D:

now to the battle scenario:

since the conflict is in open desert armor unit would have alot of use in this scenario. In Rommel's case the best case of action would to send out small scout units and planes(if it's available) to sniff out Monty's forces movements. Once they found out the main direction of the attack, counter it with armor and artillery support at the front. Let infantry units flank Monty's main attack force on the sides. Once the attack is repulsed, chase the retreating enemies a small distance to worn them down a little more.

-Rommel's tanks would be the main player in this kind of theatre
-Infantry unit would serve in a support role, the open terrain of the desert determined that

i can only tell that much at this point because the info you provided is not enough. Try to give me info on number of forces on both sides, number of armor and artillery, and what kind of support is available.
 

Awang se

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
How about this

Theatre

tropical conditions with light monsoon rain. battle area is partly rubber, oil palm and pineapple plantations and secondary jungle while partly on urban settings. There is a river flowing from east to west with one bridge. the river is 200 m wide average for 10km left and right of the bridge. There is small village on the south side and a city on the north side. River flow speed is about 15kmh. There is a hill on the south side with it's peak about 3 km from the river and at the height of 150m. There is only one properly pave road on the south side that is the main road that cross the bridge into the city.

Force compositions

Attacking- 2 infantry battalions with a company of AIFV in support. Artillery consist of a a platoon of 105 guns and several 83mm mortars.
air support 2 Hawk 200 with freefall 500lb bomb 10 minutes away.

Defending- 1 Infantry battalions, no known armored support. Artillery consist of 83 and 60mm mortar in the hidden position all along the river, strength unknown. A sandbag bunker on the north side with HMG emplacement and AT weaponry, probably guided type. unknown number of Manpads. no air support available.

I'm not quite sure it's complete, so ring me if u got questions.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
Awang se said:
How about this

Theatre

tropical conditions with light monsoon rain. battle area is partly rubber, oil palm and pineapple plantations and secondary jungle while partly on urban settings. There is a river flowing from east to west with one bridge. the river is 200 m wide average for 10km left and right of the bridge. There is small village on the south side and a city on the north side. River flow speed is about 15kmh. There is a hill on the south side with it's peak about 3 km from the river and at the height of 150m. There is only one properly pave road on the south side that is the main road that cross the bridge into the city.

Force compositions

Attacking- 2 infantry battalions with a company of AIFV in support. Artillery consist of a a platoon of 105 guns and several 83mm mortars.
air support 2 Hawk 200 with freefall 500lb bomb 10 minutes away.

Defending- 1 Infantry battalions, no known armored support. Artillery consist of 83 and 60mm mortar in the hidden position all along the river, strength unknown. A sandbag bunker on the north side with HMG emplacement and AT weaponry, probably guided type. unknown number of Manpads. no air support available.

I'm not quite sure it's complete, so ring me if u got questions.
hmmm........let's suppose the attacker is the attacking the defender from the south of the river.

defending side:
move troops back into the jungle about 50 meters from the river side, so attacking force will be having difficult time moving their armor to support their troops and hard for attacker's air support to see their target in the trees. then the company is to entrench themselves into a arc stretching 150 to 200 meters, about 100 meters from the bridge and facing it . Use another company to guard the mortar positions. Use the mortar to give fire support to the company guarding the bridge and keep the last company in reserve in case any postion along the river or arc needs to be reinforced. Place anti-personal mine about 50 meters in front of the entrenched arc. also deploy most of ATGMs and man portable SAMs to the two companies in the arc and river side. And finally wait for attackers to cross the bridge and come into the fortification to worn themselves out.

-because the defenders moved into the jungle the attacker's IFV will not be able to support them. So the attacker might be forced to use foot soldiers as their means of ground attack.

-attacker's air support will be focused on destroying the forces in the arc and artillery postions along the river side. So deploying man portable SAM is neccesary to keep them away. Also because the defender is inside the trees they won't become a easy target to enemy air support.

-if attacker needs to overcome the defender they must go across the river from the bridge, there they will be met with a enemy that has entrenched down and fully prepared for them.

-Infantry will play the main role of this operation as armor cannot move through jungle very easily, the best IFV can do is fire into the trees hoping to hit something.

anyone would like to post a battle plan for the attackers??
 

adeel

New Member
Hello All,
Im a first time poster but a long time lurker of this forum. I decided to break my silence after seeing the scenarios posted here. First off I do not have any formal military training (arm chair general) but hey Ill give this a shot.

If I was the attacker I would use my superiority in mobility and firepower to deal with the entrenched forces. I understand jungle is difficult for maneauver and that AIFvs will be inhibited greatly, but I believe I can use my 105mm arty to pound the defense at a distance, hopefully softening up the fortified enemy somewhat. I would only bring my air support into play after a sustained pummelng with arty, and hopefully after MANPADS have been rendered useless due to the shelling.

If my AIFVs have any kind of main gun with decent firepower I can also bring those into the direct fire role, If they are armed with ATGMs they can also be brought into bunker busting duties, the OPFOR has no armor to speak of, the ATGMS can be used agaisnt the defensive positions instead.

If possible maybe a river crossing further upstream can take place by a small group to flank the defenders. The gentlemen posted that the river is moving at 15klicks, I do not know if that is to fast for a river crossing or if the AIFVs can ford water moving at that speed. But if it is possible I would send them. This flanking force would only have to be about 2 platoons in strenght and would be tasked with eliminating MANPADS and generally providing a headache to the enemies rear.

I would began my primary attack after sufficient arty pounding and airstrikes have taken their toll, perhaps the enemy will be sufficiently demoralized after sustained bombardment and not fight effectively.

Just my 2 cents folks, great forum hope to participate often

Adeel
 

zulqarnain

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
HI MEMBERS,
Well I think that this Forum has started paying dividends as it has managed to tempt Adeel to break his silence. :D:
By the way I am listening to the scenarios and abreast with the responses generated by the members. Its a great learning by listening to your view points. Good luck and keep posting your responses or questions if you have any. I am coming up with another question very soon sir.
Take care and enjoy.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
Ok let me gives you guys a scenario for a change. Here it goes:

Situation: A group of drug lord-funded rebels in Columbia has taken a dozen foreign tourist hostage and took them deep into jungle. The hostage takers demands the release of of their comrades in Columbian government's custody in exchange for the hostages' safe return. U.S military has receive orders from the president to free the hostages since the rebels has failed to live up their promise in few earlier incidents.

Terrain: Hot and humid jungle enviroment. Thick vegetations has reduced visibility no further than 100 meters. A small river, flows from north to south at the center of the map. The river is 24 meters wide and runs about 25km/H. There is one poorly made bridge about 200 meters west from the rebel camp where the hostages is believed to be held. A dirt road starts from the bridge and leads to a town controlled by rebels 80km away at west. The only area suitable for helicopter landing is about 2km the south of the camp.
Note: It is almost impossible to see without NVG at night in the jungle.

Forces compostition: 12 man team of Green Berets and 2 infantry platoon borrowed from the Columbian government will be arriving by choppers. The Green Berets are equipped with eight Car-15s, two M16s with M203 attached, and two SAW. The two Columbian infantry platoons have two 60mm mortars and three LAW launcher with them.

OPFOR: Unkown number of rebels guarding the camp, but intel estimates around 40. Believe to be armed with AK-47s, M16s and RPGs. Around 6 sand bag bunkers with .50cal HMG placed around the camp. Rebels are also believed to be in poccession of a few Stinger SAM so it is not advisable that choppers get close to the camp. Reinforcement might arrive from the town in about 2 hours.


ok guys see what plans you can come up with :D:
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The river is 24 meters wide and runs about 25km/H.
That's not a river, that's a race track :eek

Also:

1) What's the psych profile assessment of the terrorists?
2) Green Berets are normally more heavily gunned up than that
3) The fact that there is a water barrier would lend itself to SEAL insertion as they have broader skillsets
4) How regular is the sat updates for that location?
5) How far is it from friendly airspace?
6) How far is it from the coast?
7) What backup forces are on hold? Also, are the backup forces in transit to the terrorist location at a certain time? eg Z+1 they start to move forward to close the support gap issue??
8) Is the terrorist end game seizure or termination? ie, extreme prejudice issues??
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
gf0012 said:
That's not a river, that's a race track :eek

Also:

1) What's the psych profile assessment of the terrorists?
2) Green Berets are normally more heavily gunned up than that
3) The fact that there is a water barrier would lend itself to SEAL insertion as they have broader skillsets
4) How regular is the sat updates for that location?
5) How far is it from friendly airspace?
6) How far is it from the coast?
7) What backup forces are on hold? Also, are the backup forces in transit to the terrorist location at a certain time? eg Z+1 they start to move forward to close the support gap issue??
8) Is the terrorist end game seizure or termination? ie, extreme prejudice issues??
oh i forgot to type the water before runs

1. The rebel group have years of experience fighting in skirmishes with the columbian government. They are battle-harden and nearly merciless. They are growing impatient because their demands has not been met, and is now much less hesitant towards killing the hostages.
2.Yes Green Berets are more heavily equipped than I mentioned, besides the small arms a team usually has 4 AT-4 launchers and Thermite grenades. But I did not mention them because there isn't any enemy armor or objectives to destroy in this case.
3. Navy Seals presence in Columbia is very much limited, mainly recruits go there for phase three of their training, however, the Green Berets have conducted several operations in Columbia before so in this case they seem ideal.
4.Intel updates every 5 hours
5. The area is under control of the rebels. It's at least 70km from friendly airspace
6. The range to the coast is 130km
7.Backup forces include another Green Beret team, on stand by at the nearest friendly airbase 80km away, if needed it can arrive in 20 minutes.
8. The ROE towards the rebels is Kill on Sight.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
2.Yes Green Berets are more heavily equipped than I mentioned, besides the small arms a team usually has 4 AT-4 launchers and Thermite grenades. But I did not mention them because there isn't any enemy armor or objectives to destroy in this case.
If I might make a suggestion here. Keep a couple of AT-4's and Thermites for effect.

The issue is to shock, stun and secure. Kinetic effects have a dramatic capability to provide small windows of opportunity to create an opening in the "red forces" concentration.

One assumes that the terrorists have vehicles and trucks to carry around their prisoners and their escorts. You want to isolate their capacity to get away, and you don't need their vehicles anyway, one assumes that you will call in airlift once the area has been dominated or neutralised.

Progressively killing off their transport to get out of the area will be slightly disconcerting for them. ;)

I'd be assuming that you have GB's directing the locals to create mayhem, cause distraction etc while the A and B teams go in and perform the extraction.
 
Top