Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

Ananda

The Bunker Group

I usually bit hesitant to put link on any video/materials that coming from India forums or media. Basically I found Indian forums and media talk more like Chinese forums/media/50cents army type on having more on nationalistic propaganda.

Put this video since it provides portion of HAL pers release on their order contract for 99 GE404 for Tejas Mk1a. Thus make the potential mass production for IAF to really begin. Something that already delay for close to two decades.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

I usually bit hesitant to put link on any video/materials that coming from India forums or media. Basically I found Indian forums and media talk more like Chinese forums/media/50cents army type on having more on nationalistic propaganda.

Put this video since it provides portion of HAL pers release on their order contract for 99 GE404 for Tejas Mk1a. Thus make the potential mass production for IAF to really begin. Something that already delay for close to two decades.
Yes, Janes reported yesterday about it, but i just wonder why they have waited so long for it to order these engines. The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
We know Indian bureaucracy on defense planning create their own 'side projects' thus resulted on much decision delay. Something that if not careful will happen to Indonesian defense SOE. The model of Indian inefficient defense SOE already shown similarities taken by Indonesian defense SOE.

In such the big problem in overall Tejas project delay not only related to HAL inefficient process, but also to Indian politics insistence for Kaveri Turbofan engine. When they realize that Kaveri after pouring so much Investment in the development, still not producing enough power as 70's design GE404. It take a lot of wrangling within Indian bureaucracy and Political circles to decide the mass production of Tejas Mk1a version still using GE404.

Indian Political circles now even has to swallow their nationalistic pride on taking GE414 for the next Tejas Mk2 for their indigenous MRCA program. This kind of nationalistic wrangling is different with PRC approach that doesn't shy away on taking/using Russian engine for time being until they can come out with their own reliable version for their J-10 as example.

India meantime spend times on try to salvage Kaveri for Tejas Mk1a, even talk with French on using Snecma core for Kaveri. Until they don't have choices to speed up Mk1a mass production schedule by still using imported GE404.
 

Bonplan

New Member

@Bonplan We have the requirement that posters provide a couple of lines of text explaining why they are posting the particular item. I have already suggested that you read the rules. Green ink posts from a Moderator are something that is in your best interests to follow.

Ngatimozart.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
@Bonplan, if you only want to put video without any comments from you. I suggest you put it on Videos thread. Don't put it on discussion thread like this one. The mods will not like it.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Welcome to Defencetalk.
Like Ananda already said, its maybe better if you add some text/comment/opinion/explanation to your video. It is not only the way we normally post, but this video is also in an not-understandable language without subtitles.

Thanks berfore!
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
At last.....India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a contract with Airbus Defence and Space on 24 September to buy 56 C295 MW medium transport aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) to replace its legacy Avro 748M transport fleet.

On 1 November 1961, so almost 60 years ago, the first Indian-assembled HAL-748 made its first flight. By the end of production, HAL had completed 89 Indian-built aircraft, 72 of which were for the Indian Air Force.

The MoD declared in an official statement that the deal involves acquiring 16 C295s from Airbus in fly-away condition from Spain, while the remaining 40 aircraft will be built in partnership with the private-sector Tata consortium via a technology transfer.

So it seems there will be no cooperation with the state owned HAL.

 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's good that HAL have been left out of the loop. Tata should do a good job and the project delivered close to on time and near budget.
 

Adioz

New Member
Yes, Janes reported yesterday about it, but i just wonder why they have waited so long for it to order these engines. The HAL LCA/Tejas was from the beginning flying with the F404 and waiting for an indigenous design mature and proven enough for full scale production is obviously not a smart move.
What makes you think that HAL waited before ordering the engines? They placed the order merely 6 months after receiving the Tejas Mk1A order.


When they realize that Kaveri after pouring so much Investment in the development, still not producing enough power as 70's design GE404.
Agree with the larger point of bureaucratic delays but the amount spent on Kaveri development is hardly enough. They spent somewhere around $280 Million on the development, if I remember correctly. That is not "pouring", rather its "sprinkling" compared to what market leaders like GE have put in year after year for decades.


2. I speculate that the Indian MOD is cutting out Russian influence at HAL by shutting down the Su-30MKI line totally (as HAL was the one that prevented a non-Russian foreign fighter from being made in India). The IAF’s current planned procurement is for a new fleet of 114 fighters (this follows the cancellation in 2015 of its 2007 tender for 126 MMRCA), and the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters as a stop-gap measure in 2016.

3. Short of numbers, the IAF has launched the procurement of 114 medium fighters in an exercise that closely mirrors the MMRCA tender.
  • With the USAF order of eight F-15EX in hand and the prospect of 72 more (as follow on American orders to come in 2021-2026), Boeing is going to be able to offer significant off-sets to Indian companies if they can win the 114 fighter tender — HAL will be left in the cold.

  • IMO, Boeing will offer the F-15EX to the IAF, while offering the block 3 Super Hornet to the Indian Navy (which is separately pursuing the acquisition of 57 carrier-deck fighters, to eventually replace their unreliable MiG-29Ks).
4. The US Navy uses the Block 3 Super Hornet and Growler as carrier-deck fighters. It is likely the line will be shutdown after the production of the last few block 3 Super Hornets (at most 36 more from FY 2022 to 2024). This will facilitate the ramp up of production for the F-35Cs from the current 12 a year (for both the US Navy and US Marines) and pay for development of Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter by the end of Biden’s term in office. A win of 57 with the Indian Navy will keep the Super Hornet line open for 3 to 4 more years.
Maybe, but I am willing to bet F-15EX will never see service in IAF for the sole reason that its too heavy an aircraft. IAF has clearly stated it needs Medium fighters. F-15EX is too beastly and the Su-30MKI already fulfills that role.

It would be beneficial to both the Indian Air Force and Navy if HAL was to be removed from the Indian military aviation scene. It's been a millstone around the neck of Indian military aviation for years and in fact the Indian Government should sell it off or disestablish it. It is a government department, is a typical Indian government bureaucracy and has no idea about working in the aviation market place. I dread to think how many hundreds of billions of US dollars that its incompetence and sheer bungling has cost the Indian government over the years.
HAL is not a government department. Its a PSU. That is a big difference. Its encouraging to see TATA bag the C-295W contest. The government seems to be aiming to level the playing field between HAL and Private Sector, which is exactly the move needed right now. After that, if HAL remains profitable, let it be. If it sinks, sell it off to Indian Private Conglomerates. And that should be the policy for not just HAL but all PSU (except Nuclear ones). Government policy should be self-consistent. Thoughtlessly disestablishing HAL right now would be a bad move as it would halt multiple ongoing indigenous projects like ALH, LUH, IMRH, CATS, HTSE/HTFE engines, GSLV Mk-II, GSLV Mk-III, Gaganyaan, RLV, PSLV, etc.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
HAL is not a government department. Its a PSU. That is a big difference. Its encouraging to see TATA bag the C-295W contest. The government seems to be aiming to level the playing field between HAL and Private Sector, which is exactly the move needed right now. After that, if HAL remains profitable, let it be. If it sinks, sell it off to Indian Private Conglomerates. And that should be the policy for not just HAL but all PSU (except Nuclear ones). Government policy should be self-consistent. Thoughtlessly disestablishing HAL right now would be a bad move as it would halt multiple ongoing indigenous projects like ALH, LUH, IMRH, CATS, HTSE/HTFE engines, GSLV Mk-II, GSLV Mk-III, Gaganyaan, RLV, PSLV, etc.
Well HAL has all the characteristics of a government department, even though it's an SOE. The point is that the IAF are sick of the continual delays, cost overruns, and mediocre performance of HAL designed capabilities. It's negatively impacting upon their operational capability. How profitable is HAL? Is it actually profitable at all? Profit and loss are just one metric. Efficiency, reliable products, on time delivery at the contracted cost, capabilities that are at the least comparable to ones enemies best capabilities, are what should be designed and provided by the company. That it isn't doing.

It's had decades to sort all of this out and India isn't short on the talent or institutes of higher learning. If the Chinese achieved what they have done in their military aviation field, why hasn't India? Yes the Chinese cheated, but India has had the advantage that India have access to western educational, scientific, engineering and aviation facilities since 1947 and whilst India has struggled with domestic social problems, as well as external problems from the start, it has made staggering progress since. Unfortunately HAL smothered that.
 
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