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Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by gf0012-aust, Jul 8, 2014.

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  1. Persian Gulf

    Persian Gulf New Member

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    The EU and most of the world regards extraterritorial sanctions as illegal vis-a-vis international law.

    Your last line is totally wrong. There are other sources of international law than treaties...
     
  2. Persian Gulf

    Persian Gulf New Member

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    Trump tweeted today that other countries should "protect their own ships". :)


    Iran has shown lots of debris of the wreckage of the downed RQ-4 it recovered from its territorial waters. The US said at the time they were sending ships to international waters where they allege the shooting took place to recover wreckage - when will they show the wreckage they found? :)
     
  3. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    spoz is citing the concept of sovereign immunity — I certainly don’t see the validity of what you say. Under American law, the federal government and state governments enjoy immunity, from lawsuits. Sovereign immunity falls into two categories:
    • Absolute immunity: When absolute immunity applies a government actor may not be sued for the allegedly wrongful act, even if that person acted maliciously or in bad faith; and
    • Qualified immunity: When qualified immunity applies the government actor is shielded from liability only if specific conditions are met, as specified in statute or case law.
    Absolute immunity applies to acts that, if subject to challenge, would significantly affect the operation of government, such as would occur if a legislator could be sued for core legislative acts, and is also typically extended to statements made on the floor of the legislature. Similar protections apply to American judges who are acting in a judicial capacity.
    Please be adult about your discussion. The onus is on you to explain why it is totally wrong; and applied to this case. At USNI, Dr. Kuehn has the good, bad and the ugly of the Global Hawk Shoot Down. Worth a read.
    There is no doubt that under the Trump Administration, protection of Persian Gulf oil supply route is no longer a US responsibility. Trump's actual words:

    "China gets 91% of its Oil from the Straight, Japan 62%, & many other countries likewise. So why are we protecting the shipping lanes for other countries (many years) for zero compensation. All of these countries should be protecting their own ships on what has always been....

    ....a dangerous journey. We don’t even need to be there in that the U.S. has just become (by far) the largest producer of Energy anywhere in the world! The U.S. request for Iran is very simple - No Nuclear Weapons and No Further Sponsoring of Terror!"
     
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  4. Persian Gulf

    Persian Gulf New Member

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    Note that sovereign immunity relates to enforcement not to legality per se.

    Note also that you confuse state responsibility with individual responsibility of government officials etc.

    I said why he is wrong in the next sentence (there are other sources of international law than just treaties - that is a sufficient counterexample to disprove his hypothesis).

    We agree on something :)
     
  5. MrConservative

    MrConservative Super Moderator Staff Member

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    No he does not. He specifically mentioned Judges as another example of sovereign immunity within US jurisdiction in addition to that of the Federal State. Judges are not government officials but members of the Judiciary, the 3rd Branch of the Sovereign State alongside the Executive and Legislature.
     
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  6. MickB

    MickB Active Member

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    You may be right but if you know of such a law that as you state makes sanctions illegal perhaps you should list it.
     
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  7. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I thank all of you for the encouragement in responding to my posts and giving me an opportunity to learn from you.

    IMHO, Iran’s actions ultimately hurt its citizens more than it hurts the world. Their revolutionary guard have caused the War risk premiums that ship owners pay each time they go to the Persian Gulf have now surged to at least $185,000 for supertankers, according to people with knowledge of the market. They rose to $50,000 after the attacks a month ago. The Joint War Committee, a group that advises insurers, designated the entire Persian Gulf and waters just outside it a so-called Listed Area after the incidents a month ago. The classification gives underwriters room to charge more. Owners were reluctant to send vessels to the region while there was also a dearth of cargoes, according to traders and shipbrokers involved in that market, who spoke on condition of anonymity. The EU exported over €10.8 billion worth of goods to Iran in 2017 (see: Iran - Trade - European Commission). This means freight and insurance rates goes up - which will be for the short to medium term for the Persian gulf region (and affecting the world oil price) but these freight and insurance rates are likely to remain high for the long term for shipments into Iran. According to the EU, China, the United Arab Emirates,and the EU are now Iran's main trading partners, accounting for 19.5%, 16.8% and 16.3% respectively.

    Learning their lesson from the Tanker Wars, Saudi Arabia has announced several mega-projects along the Red Sea, including a US$500 billion business zone shared with Egypt and Jordan as well as a luxury tourism destination. Saudi Arabia has also invested in infrastructure at the Red Sea Gateway Terminal (RSGT) under a privately funded BOT (Build and Transfer) development project in Saudia Arabia, with investment of US$700m. This investment will enable Saudi Arabia’s terminal to handle three vessels simultaneously and ensuring that their domestic economy is less affected by the increase in the War risk premiums. The Red Sea also includes the Bab Al-Mandeb strait, through which oil is shipped towards Europe, the US and Asia. In recent years the waterway has been targeted by Iranian-backed Houthi militants from Yemen. Despite the use of armed drones to attack pump stations on a pipeline that transports oil from the Eastern Province to Yanbu port on the Red Sea, these attacks caused only minor damage - which means Saudi Arabia’s oil exports from the Red Sea remains unaffected. Ultimately, the religious and ideological differences between the Persians and Arabs (and the US on the side of Saudi Arabia) are fundamental. These tensions can be managed by negotiations and can never be really solved. The Iranians through its proxies are committed to pushing US out from the Persian Gulf, whereas the US military is determined to stay put—a cold war between the two, which has the potential to go hot, is becoming the negative organizing principle of geopolitics in the Middle East.
     
  8. Ananda

    Ananda Well-Known Member

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    Not find thread for Netherlands/Belgium Navy, so put it here.
    However my comment more to the trend on upscale Mine Countermeasures Ships..as this is quite enlarge from the Tripartite MCV the Dutch/Belgium replacing.

    Seems the trend on reliance on UAV and USV and the size shown Blue Water capabilities rather than Green Water/Regional lines in Tripartite.
     
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  9. OPSSG

    OPSSG Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps tried to capture the British Heritage, as the tanker was sailing through the Strait of Hormuz with escort from HMS Montrose. BZ to HMS Montrose for successfully deterring an attack (with no shots fired). See Iranian boats attempt to storm British oil tanker in the Gulf | Daily Mail Online
    Thanks.