French Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace News & Discussion

[RobWilliams]

Tried looking for a thread like this, found plenty of scattered threads about Rafale so I thought one central thread like this would be a better option.

Good picture from G_Steuer on twitter of the first French A400M in the sky decked out with French colours, it's completed it's inaugural flight - some 7 hours - today too.

He posted a decent stat too from a colleague

A400M would be able to fly Istres>Bamako in 5h30 with a 31t payload vs 13t in 7h30 for a C-130 & 5t in 9h for a Transall

Which aircraft specifically is the A400M replacing in this instance? IIRC the AdlA are getting something like 50 A400M at the last count, presumably they're replacing the C-160.

For what it's worth, in this case the pair are journalists for Air & Cosmos which is a French aerospace magazine.

EDIT: Forgot to attach the darn photo . . . .

 

[harryriedl]

Tried looking for a thread like this, found plenty of scattered threads about Rafale so I thought one central thread like this would be a better option.

Good picture from G_Steuer on twitter of the first French A400M in the sky decked out with French colours, it's completed it's inaugural flight - some 7 hours - today too.

He posted a decent stat too from a colleague



Which aircraft specifically is the A400M replacing in this instance? IIRC the AdlA are getting something like 50 A400M at the last count, presumably they're replacing the C-160.

Its the C160 which are absolutely at the end of their lives plus give a little strat lift which has been helping the French out in Mali. Seeing how RAF and the Canadians have been using the C17 to help out on strategic lift.

I do wonder why France never considered C17 as they do have the requirement for such craft

 

[ADMk2]

Its the C160 which are absolutely at the end of their lives plus give a little strat lift which has been helping the French out in Mali. Seeing how RAF and the Canadians have been using the C17 to help out on strategic lift.

I do wonder why France never considered C17 as they do have the requirement for such craft

Requirements - yes.

Cash - no, because they're investing it all in A400M.

I'd imagine that 40-44 A400M and 4-6 C-17A would enormously improve their strategic airlift capability, but they only seem to be investing in products delivered by local industry (apart from a few specific capabilities - GBU-49 dual mode Paveway II/III and Harfang / Heron UAV springs to mind).

 

[Ananda]

Nato already share ownership with A-3 AWACS, isn't they also planning to pull the resources for share ownership of C-17 (or they have done it already ?). If they can pull share ownership of C-17, then perhaps Franch can use that. Afterall I do believe most of their requirement will be meet by A-400M.

 

[swerve]

The collective E-3 & C-17 fleets are not owned or shared by all of NATO. Countries opt in, pay a share, & get the use of the aircraft. France, like the UK, has its own E-3s, & has no share in the NATO E-3 fleet. The SAC C-17s (all three of them) are owned by a 12 nation consortium, including two countries (Finland & Sweden) which are not NATO members. France, the UK, Germany, Italy, Spain, Turkey & several other NATO members have no share in those C-17s.

There are other collective arrangements within NATO that not all members take part in.

 

[RobWilliams]

France has finally presented a request for the Reaper UAV.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2013/France_13-40.pdf

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a
possible Foreign Military Sale to France of 16 MQ-9 Reaper Remotely Piloted Aircraft
and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost
of $1.5billion.

Specifically

• 16 MQ - 9 Reaper Remotely Piloted Aircraft
• 8 Mobile Ground Control Stations (GCS)
• 48 Honeywell TPE331 - 10T Turboprop Engines (16 installed and 32 spares)
• 24 Satellite Earth Terminal Substations
• 40 Ku Band Link - Airborne Communication Systems
• 40 General Atomics Lynx (exportable) Synthetic Aperture Radar/Ground Moving Target Indicator (SAR/GMTI) Systems
• 40 AN/DAS - 1 Multi - Spectral Targeting Systems (MTS) - B
• 40 Ground Data Terminals
• 40 ARC - 210 Radio Systems
• 40 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems
• 48 AN/APX - 119 and KIV - 119 Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) Systems

Also provided are spare and repair parts, communication, test, and support equipment, publications and technical documentation, airworthiness and maintenance support, site surveys and bed down planning, personnel training and training equipment, operational flight test, U.S. Government and contractor technical and
logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $1.5 billion.

There's currently quite a big bit of investment going on in French UAV forces, they're currently doing operational assessments of the Watchkeeper system for the Frency Army and IIRC are looking for 30 systems

 

[FAR SOLDIER]

The French army has a critical need in terms of UAV, we saw her lately at war in Mali or she has to appeal to the American assistance in this area ...

Today , just above my house , I shooted with my phone 4 Rafales flying together , and then 6 Rafales flying with a A330MRTT . It was so impressive !

They were training for the 14 juillet parade .
When I have the permission to post videos , I'll put it here .

 

[RobWilliams]

French air force accepts it's first A400M airlifter

First A400M Airlifter Delivered to France | Defense News | defensenews.com

Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Spain, Turkey and the UK joined in a program that together with export customer Malaysia has garnered 174 orders.

The production schedule should see a further two A400Ms delivered to France this year from the Airbus Military assembly plant in Seville, Spain, with Turkey also scheduled to receive its first aircraft.

Among the other significant A400M operators, Britain is scheduled to get its first aircraft next year, and German deliveries will follow in 2015.

The turboprop aircraft has a payload capability of up to 37 tons or 116 paratroopers, and can also serve as an air-to-air tanker for fast jets and other aircraft.

Good news for the French air force, giving them a more serious airlift capability, a capability demonstrated to be lacking to a degree during Operation Serval in Mali.

But according to info supplied to a journalist of AirCosmos (G_Steuer on Twitter) from the recent defence budget law there's supposed to only be 15 aircraft delivered by 2019 where until now the expectation was 31 aircraft by 2019.

From the same source

• only 6 Mirage 2000Ds to be modernised by 2019.
• 14 tactical UAVs for the Army by 2019
• ANL/FASGW deliveries not before 2019
• Possible delivery of 2 Reaper UAVs from the US later this year

I know not strictly all French Air Force, but thought i'd include it.

 

[Ananda]

So French will only take 15 out of 31, or less 16. Taking from other info, seems Spain and Germany also reducing their delivery A-400. From Spain and Germany will be less 13 each, thus make it 26. Plus French, make it less 42.

Those 42 for Airbus, need to be replaced by other nation that interested. It's only rumoured, however based on local forum in Malaysia and Indonesia, Malaysia being offered to take additional 4 from it's current order of four. While Indonesia being offered unspecified number, although with Indonesia already upgrading current C-130H and ex RAAF C-130H, don't see it need new mid-heavy transport soon.

Those offered used being told by Airbus can only be deliver after 2020, since Airbus committed to the original Euro nation order first. However seems Airbus now trying to sell those Euro orders to Asia, Middle-East.

Australia can be a market, if not already committed to C-130J, and C-17. Not a best timing for A-400.

 

[John Newman]

So French will only take 15 out of 31, or less 16. Taking from other info, seems Spain and Germany also reducing their delivery A-400. From Spain and Germany will be less 13 each, thus make it 26. Plus French, make it less 42.

Those 42 for Airbus, need to be replaced by other nation that interested. It's only rumoured, however based on local forum in Malaysia and Indonesia, Malaysia being offered to take additional 4 from it's current order of four. While Indonesia being offered unspecified number, although with Indonesia already upgrading current C-130H and ex RAAF C-130H, don't see it need new mid-heavy transport soon.

Those offered used being told by Airbus can only be deliver after 2020, since Airbus committed to the original Euro nation order first. However seems Airbus now trying to sell those Euro orders to Asia, Middle-East.

Australia can be a market, if not already committed to C-130J, and C-17. Not a best timing for A-400.

As has been discussed in the RNZAF thread, the early 2020's timing would probably work there.

Another possibility could be South Africa, originally ordered 8, then cancelled, but is still an industrial partner in the A400 project and I read recently that there is a suggestion that they may be reconsidering.

As for the RAAF, timing would certainly be an issue, the C130J's probably won't be replaced until closer to 2030, and by that time LM would no doubt have a further upgrade of the C130 available and maybe a new larger design too, but I suppose that will also depend on what a future US requirement might be by then.

 

[RobWilliams]

They're not neccesarily ditching the rest of their order for 50, in the recent White paper released in May it was still committed to 50 A400Ms.

I expect it's a scenario like their Rafales, originally it was going to be they accept 11 aircraft per year for the next six years but now it's down to 26 over the same period.*

If you're after airframes look no further than Germany & Spain, IIRC Spain is trying to shift 13.

EDIT: From AirCosmos, sheduled deliveries from 2014 - 2019

• Introduction of new French BM - M51-2 (updated M51)
• 2 optical observation satellites Musis / CSO
• 12 MALE UAVs
• 14 tactical UAVs (against 30 requested by the White Paper)
• 26 Rafale fighter jets
• 13 A400M transport aircraft (including two this year)
• 6 combat aircraft Mirage 2000D renovated
• 42 NH-90 helicopters
• 16 Tiger helicopters
• 4 patrol aircraft ATL-renovated 2 (15 in the White Paper)
• 2 MRTT tanker aircraft (12 in the White Paper)
• 450 missiles MMP successors of Milan (2850 in the White Paper)
• 532 AASM guided bombs (in the 1742 White Paper)

Google Translate

*But the article does say that it appears to be a sharp reduction in orders, but some of this would be offset by pushing it back to the next round but it's not clear what. When it talks about (X in the White Paper), i'm not entirely sure if that means what the WP expected to be delivered or just referencing the total number. If it was a comparison, how come the Rafales don't have a reference?

 

[KiwiRob]

The French govt has just placed an order for 12 A330 MRTT's.

France confirms A330 tanker selection - 11/20/2014 - Flight Global

Paris has confirmed its selection of the Airbus A330 multirole tanker transport (MRTT), with 12 of the type to replace its Boeing C/KC-135s from late this decade.

Announced on 20 November, the development will lead to the French air force receiving a first A330 MRTT in 2018 and a second in 2019, says Airbus Defence & Space. The remaining examples will follow “at a rate of one or two per year”, it adds.

“The contract agreed between the French [DGA] procurement agency and Airbus Defence & Space is now ready for official award,” the company says.

France follows Australia, India, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, the United Arab Emirates and the UK in selecting the type, although New Delhi and Doha have yet to conclude their planned respective orders for six and two of the aircraft. Talks with both are “in the final stages of contractual negotiations”, says the company.

 

[RobWilliams]

At least the French picked up the proper full fat A330 MRTT, boom equipped, cargo door & can receive fuel itself.

Although this isn't just a tanker replacement, yeah 14 KC-135 are going but so are a pair of A340 and 3 A310 airliners too IIRC.

 

[swerve]

Greater individual capacity (& greater total offloadable fuel) than 14 KC-135, but 12 aircraft can't be in all the same places at once as 19.

I wish the RAF had the proper A330 MRTT.

 

[RobWilliams]

Indeed, it's the common theme of platform reduction. Still, it's a capable platform and i'm sure they'll make it work.

In other news, the DGA are beginning studies to replace ASMP-A (their air launched nuke) and supposedly it's going to be "bold" including stealth aspects (reasonable to expect) as well as being a hypersonic vehicle.

Very bold, will be interesting to watch it develop.

Phénix, ASMPA Rénové, ASN4G, les FAS de demain - Air et Cosmos

 

[StobieWan]

Blimey - that's a surprise - I thought they'd do away with the role in order to cut down on costs.

 

[RobWilliams]

Agreed, if I was looking for things to cut it'd be ASMP-A and leave the deterrent role to the SSBNs. Although, one wonders how much service politics is at play here.

 

[A4kscooter]

I read somewhere the French were looking at a similiar deal to
the RAF and purchasing the aircraft through PFI.
Why does France whose economy is failing chose to purchase the aircraft out right and have them operated by only FAF crews?
I am no fan of PFI but am curious who is right the French or the UK?

 

[RobWilliams]

The French by a country mile.

What the UK did with Voyager and the PFI was arse-backwards.

 

[swerve]

PFI makes sense when the private company is so much more efficient than the state that it can provide goods or services cheaper even after paying higher capital charges (the state can always borrow cheaper) & making a profit.

This tends to be true when the goods or services are things which the private supplier is expert in, & the state isn't. For example, I think that handing over the management of the Point class to a private firm was probably a good idea, as the RFA knows nothing about leasing out ships*.

But it's hard to see any advantage in the RAF - or even the AdlA, with its shorter history of AAR with a smaller fleet - handing over AAR to a private firm.


*But the only reason for having the private firm buy the ships & factor the price into its fee to the MoD was to push the state spending into the future at the cost of it being greater. And the same with the Voyager deal.