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Doubts about the HMS Ocean to the Brazilian Navy

Discussion in 'Navy & Maritime' started by JFoulke, Jun 13, 2018.

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  1. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Hi everybody,
    recently i read that the HMS Ocean will be sold to the Bazilian Navy but without the Phalanx CIWS and the radars for such weapons due to USA veto. So I thought, why Brazil would buy such a ship when there are many better alternatives to the Ocean, for example Navatia takes order for the Juan Carlos I class LHD, STX France (recently partially bought by the italian Fincantieri [the majority shareholder]) is taking orders for the Mistral class, even Fincantieri itself is taking orders for a dowgraded version of the 33.000 tons Trieste class.
    So why did the Brazilian Government didn't ordered any of these classes? You might say that due to the excessive costs of such ships it would not be possible for them to order one, in 2/3 years the italian Giuseppe Garibaldi will be sold.

    Ocean:
    [​IMG]

    Giuseppe Garibaldi
    [​IMG]

    Juan Carlos I
    [​IMG]

    Mistral
    [​IMG]

    Trieste
    [​IMG]

    so i made some research about these two ships and i found out some nice data:

    First of all some data about the two ships:
    Giuseppe Garibaldi was commissioned in 1985
    the Ocean was commissioned in 1995

    Giuseppe Garibaldi role: Aircraft carrier, ASW carrier, LHD
    Ocean role: LPH (has also some limited ASW capabilites

    Garibaldi diplacement: 14.150 tons (after renewed in 2003)
    Ocean diplacement: 21.500 tons

    Garibaldi length: 180.2 meters
    Ocean lenght: 203.4 meters

    Garibaldi beam: 33.4 meters
    Ocean beam: 35 meters

    Top Speed: 30 knots
    top speed: 18 knots

    Range: 7.000 nm at 20 knots
    Range: 6950 nm at 10 knots

    Complement:830, 550 crew, 180 airwing, 100 c4 crew
    complement: 365, 285 crew, 180 RAF/FAA

    here also some data about the sensors of both ships:
    sensors on the Garibaldi:
    -MM/SPS768 long range radar
    -SPS774 early warning radar
    -AN/SPS52C early warning E band radar
    -SPS702 surface search radar
    -2x SPN749 navigation radar
    -SPN728 approach radar
    -3x RTN30x fire control radar for missiles
    -3x RTN20X fire controlradar for guns
    - WASS DMS2000 hull sonar
    - CMS SODAC3
    - FACE standard URN25

    sensors on the Ocean
    - Type 997 Artisan medium range radar
    - Type 1008 navigational radar
    - 2x Type 1007 aircraft control radar
    - 3x Phalanx Control fire Radar (will be removed due to USA veto)

    Electronic warfare and decoys on both ships:
    on the garibaldi:
    -SLQ732 jamming system
    -2x OTO MELARA SCLAR decoy launchers
    -AN/SLQ25 NIXIE towed torpedoes decoy

    on the Ocean:
    -UAT electronic support measures
    -DLH decoy launcher
    -Surface Ship Torpedo Defence

    Armament on both ships:
    on the Garibaldi:
    -2x Octuple launchers for Aspede SAM
    -3x OTO MELARA twin 40L70 DARDO
    -2x 324mm triple torpedoes tubes

    on the Ocean:
    -4x 30mm DS30M
    -3x Phalanx CIWS (will be remouved due to USA veto)

    aircrafts that is possible to carry and deploy:
    the usual load for the Garibaldi when in Aircraft Carrier role:
    18 aircrafts, AV8B, SH3D, AW101
    the Garibaldi is able also to carry heavier helicopters like the NH-90 or the chinook

    the usual load of the Ocean:
    18 aircrafts, AW159, Merlin, Apache
    the Ocean is capable of carry heavier helicopters like the chinook and is capable of carrying the Harriers in ferry mode, however is nowt capable of deploying it.

    So let's see some pro and cons of the Garibaldi:
    PRO
    -has been renewed in software and structural in 2003 and 2013
    -it's a faster ship
    -It has longuer range at higher cruise speed
    -has a much wider range of sensors
    -has much heavier defence (16 sam missiles- 3 twin 40 mm guns- 6 torpedo tubes)
    -able to deploy STOVL Jet
    - Multirole capabilities

    CONS
    - it is an older ship compared to the Ocean
    -it has less displacement
    -It is shorter
    -the estimations says that it will be sold for around 150 milions euro (almost 2 times as much of the Ocean)

    PRO and CONS of the Ocean:
    PRO
    - Newer ship
    -more displacement
    -longer
    - cheeper

    CONS
    -no renewal ever done to it
    -it's a slowr ship
    -has less range at slower cruise speed
    -has less sensors of similar age
    -lighter defence
    -only able to deploy helicopters

    The Garibaldi has proven it's worth in different conflicts like the somalian crisis in 1995 where it served as Aircraft Carrier with only 3 AV8B and at the same time as LHD with onboard 198 parachuters and 320 San Marco Battaliaon soldiers and 30 special forces CONSUBIN soldiers.

    During the Kosovo war its harriers has performed 30 sorties in 1999 and in 2001 during the operation Enduring Freedom has performed 288 sorites.

    In 2011 during the Libian Crisis the 8 Harriers on board the Garibaldi has done over 1221 hours of flight.


    The HMS Ocean has taken major role in the Iraqi War in 2003 and in the 2011 i Libia, unfortunately i haven't foud data on how many hours or sorties has been made by the airfleet of this ship.



    Many might say that the Garibaldi by the time it will be sold it will be too old for service.
    By 2021, the Garibaldi will be 36 years old, but some of the systems onboard and the software will be 8 years old.
    By 2021, the Ocean will be 26 Years old and the systems/sowtwares will be too.

    Some might say that 36 years old is way too much, but when the Brazilian navy has bought the Sao Paulo the ship was 40 years old and the majority of the sistems onboard was almost the same, in the 80's it restructurated only in order to accomodate tactical nuclear ordinance by France, however the majority of the systems onboard was left almost the same since the 60's.



    On my opinion, the major flaw of the purchase of the Ocean by the Brazilian Navy is that it was thought as a support ship to use together with one of the ships from the Invincible class Carriers.
    Instead in the Brazilian navy the Ocean will be the Capital Ship and not a support ship (seeing that it is taking the place of the Sao Paulo), a role that it wasn't sopposed to have as it can be clearly seen by its system suite and its defences.

    Istead the Garibaldi, dispite being smaller, is much more capable of taking the role of Capital Ship seeing that it was built to be the Flag Ship of the Italian Navy.





    So, at the end of this short display of the capability of these ships, i think that a ship like the Garibaldi would fit much better the role of substitute of the Sao Paulo.
     
  2. hauritz

    hauritz Active Member

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    I guess Italy could sweeten the deal by offering up their old Harrier fleet as well ... but really I would question why Brazil continues to buy second-hand ships at all.

    It has a big defence budget and yet a large part of its navy is essentially just made up of cast-offs from other navies. They would be better off with a new build.
     
  3. spoz

    spoz Active Member

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    It probably comes down to price and availability. I've never been onboard Ocean so I have no idea whether the Brazilians got a bargain or not; but it's certainly happening as there are photos of her repainted and with a Brazilian pennant number painted on around the net.
     
  4. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Yeah sure, I’m not saying that it’s not happening, I’m just saying that buying an Helicopter Carrier designed to be a support ship to take the place of an Aircraft Carrier designed to be a Capital Ship isn’ t in my opinion the best of the thing that could have been done.

    It’s not just matter of costs and budget, but also having the technologies and experience to build such a ship, if I’m not mistaken the only countries that are able right now to build an aircraft carrier are the US, UK, France, Spain, Italy, Russia, India and China, if you want to count also the LHD you could fit in also South Corea and Japan.
    So a total of 10 countries creates its own Aircraft Carriers/LHD and the world has almost 200 nations.
    All the others like Turkey, Australia, Egypt, Brazil etc etc just buy one
     
  5. StobieWan

    StobieWan Super Moderator Staff Member

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    She's four years out of a major refit, she's going to be a lot cheaper than the outgoing carrier to run and she'll be fine for sailing up and down the coast occasionally doing the odd bit of flag waving and some HADRO work.
     
  6. AegisFC

    AegisFC Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    They bought it for $117 Million, that is next to nothing. I'm not sure if the ship was "donated" for a nominal ammount and the majority of the cost was one last shipyard period in the UK (as is traditional when the US sells a ship) or the entire amount went towards just the ship.
    For what Brazil will use it for they don't need a new build. Brazil rarely deploys outside of South America and doesn't seem to spend extended periods of time underway like North American and European navies do.
     
  7. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Yeah, I agree with you but they for sure lose the ability to field a credible naval Airforce because, even if you field 9/10 attack helicopters in it, it won’t be able to match even 8 fixed wing STOVL aircrafts.
    But many believe that the Garibaldi would be sold for around 150 milion euros, that is just the cost of the steel used for building it.

    For sure is, but Chile is adding founds for it’s defence and right now stand more or less at 10B increasing (vs 22B for Brazil).
    If any South America country could get its hands on a carrier like the Garibaldi, Brazilwould probably lose it’s hegemony over the seas around the continent
     
  8. Systems Adict

    Systems Adict Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Hmmm...

    I think that the obvious thing here is that OCEAN was AVAILABLE & GARIBALDI ISN'T.




    At this time there isn't a lot of funds around across South America & the continent overall is more stable just now than it has been over the last 30 years. While there are still some deep divisions between some of the nations, these nations are not at a point where they will go to war with each other. Many of the nations in South American are just happy to get on with what they are doing without becoming major global players in the Defence world, although they all recognise the need to maintain & upgrade military equipment to perpetuate their Sovereign rights as nations, such as exploration of oil reserves in their respective coastal regions.

    The purchasing of 2nd hand military equipment from 1st world nations has been a major part of these nations development needs since world war 2 & it helps to 'recycle' the older Western equipment, while improving the war fighting capabilities of each respective nation. It also helps maintain relationships with Allies, such as the USA, France, Great Britain, etc.
     
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  9. t68

    t68 Well-Known Member

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    Well they now have a very flexible little Amphibious collection of ships. A couple of Ex RFA Round table's, EX USN Newport LST (condition unknown) these could be replaced relatively cheaply with new SK Cheon Wang Bong-class LST. They also have the Ex French LPD.

    If the Giuseppe Garibaldi did come on the market with Harrier(US has plenty of spares now) that could still tie in and dominate Latin America waters, all they need next is maybe update their AOR with either ex RAN/RFA tankers now.
     
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  10. swerve

    swerve Super Moderator

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    Not really. Garibaldi with helicopters wouldn't control the oceans, Harriers are wearing out, & where would they operate from that'd enable one mini-carrier to make up for Brazil's very long coastline & ability to outbuild & outbuy every other S. American country?

    Note that Brazil only dominates the eastern coast of S. America, & a mini-carrier operating from the west coast would be operating far from home, by sea..

    Except that Garibaldi isn't available yet, & even if Italy is willing to sell them (& has F-35Bs to replace them in time), the Harriers are old & wearing out. For other uses, such as transport, amphibious roles, disaster relief, etc., Ocean is superior.

    Foch/Sao Paulo was a waste of money, mostly in refit or repair. & I don't think ever fully operational. Those old systems were at or past the end of their lives, & constantly broke down. If Ocean can put to sea regularly & operate helicopters she'll be much more effective. Oh, she has a nearly new Artisan radar & other updates, fitted a few years ago, & was laid down 24 years ago & commissioned 20 years ago, i.e. 13 years newer than Garibaldi. She's not still operating all the systems she was built with, & the price paid for her barely covers the cost of her last refit.

    I expect that the defensive weapons from Sao Paulo will be ported across, in place of the guns which the RN is keeping - not because of a US veto (AFAIK permission to transfer the Phalanxes wasn't requested), but because it was always the plan to keep them, as they're part of a pool used by numerous ships. It's logical.

    Ocean is much cheaper than a new LHD & available much sooner..

    The Netherlands could build LHDs. Look at the LPDs it's built (& sold the design of to other countries, modified to suit them), & HMLNs Karel Doorman. Damen has an LHD version in its catalogue . . .

    India has so far partly built an aircraft carrier, with foreign assistance (Fincantieri & Avio have been paid for ship & propulsion design work), & has never built a ship with a dock - unlike Indonesia & Peru (to a S. Korean design, with Korean help). For its proposed new LHDs, it plans to build a foreign design with foreign help.
     
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  11. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Yeah, the Ocean is superior as transport and amphibious roles, but the fact is that right now has nowhere the defensive and offensive capabilities of the Garibaldi.

    Yeah, the Italian Fleet of Harriers is aging because the first one was delivered at the beginning of the 90’s, but as somebody pointed out, in a few months/years there will be plenty of spare aircrafts and spare parts that USA could sell for quite a cheep price seeing that it’s an older generation of aircrafts.

    The A-4 that Brazil bought for the São Paulo were way older machines, I really don’t see how the Brazil Governement wouldn’t be able to keep a Fleet of 15 Harriers active.
    For sure also the Garibaldi would work much better as deterrent.
     
  12. Systems Adict

    Systems Adict Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    I'm sorry...

    Do you have insider information, or been reading news feeds that are not available to the rest of us ?

    Is there a war coming that Brazil is going to fight alone, against / without the rest of her 'neighbours' in South America, or against the likes of the USA??


    No-one is doubting Graibaldi's abilities / capabilities, the issue is that Brazil has bought Ocean & Garibaldi isn't up for sale, with or without helicopters or harriers.

    The Brazilian govt have bought many vessels over the last 15-20 years to replace older vessels & bolster their ability to patrol & enforce the Economic Exclusion Zone around their massive coastline, as is the right of a sovereign nation. This doesn't mean that they need warships to fight a war, but they do need assets that can cover a wide area & be used to control & co-ordinate activities, while providing a 'little floating island' for helicopters This 'island' can be used to extend the reach of the military, in activities such as drug enforcement/smuggling. Ocean is ideal for that purpose & co-ordinated efforts of x1 large support ship & 3 or 4 ocean going OPV's can make a bigger dent in this than the likes of GARIBALDI & x15 harriers..
     
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  13. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    The point where you say that there is no point to have warship to fight a war because right now we are at peace doesn’t make any sense, because also Italy isn’t on the verge of a war and for sure Italy isn’t going to fight a future war alone, but it’s upgrading it’s navy with heavier warships anyway, for example the are producing FREMM Fregates of 5.500 tons and the PPAs of similar tonnage to take the place of older 2.500/3.000 tons Fregates, it’s building the Trieste LHD that it’s 33.000 tons to replace the Garibaldi 14.000 tons even if they are not at war and there is not one on the verge of beginning, all of these ships are importants cause they work as a deterrent, in peace time will be used as patrol and enforcing the sovereignty on the Italians waters.

    Secondly the Ocean and the Garibaldi in LHD version can carry the exact same number of Helicopters, the only difference is that the Garibaldi is could be also used as a fixed wing Carrier.
    Even more, the Garibaldi has longer range radars and more efficent sensors to detect Subs and be used as ASW ship. (At least on paper)
    More than all the Garibaldi was built to coordinate the entire Italian Navy and has been used as Coordination Center multiple times by multinational task forces during different conflicts like in 2001 during the operation Enduring Freedom and in 2011 during the Libian Revolution.
    So, i’m Sorry to disagree but I think that the Garibaldi would have much better capabilities to coordinate the Brazilian Navy.

    It’s obvious that right now Brazil didn’t had any choice but to buy the Ocean because the Garibaldi wasn’t available, but they could have just wait 2/3 more years and maybe buy the Garibaldi.

    But after all of this, it’s only my opinion and I think that a support ship like the Ocean (that was built to be just that, a support ship) can’t take the place of a capital ship like the Clemenceau.
    But after all you can have your opinion and think that the Ocean could fit better Brazilian needs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  14. Systems Adict

    Systems Adict Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    I believe that Brazil has made a great move in purchasing OCEAN.

    Firstly, the ship was available & although partially 'stripped' of 'embargoed' items that may or may not have been ITAR, she provides Brazil with an almost instant upgrade in capabilities. The costs of retro fitting a radar system to such a ship are 'peanuts' in comparison to the costs of purchasing a brand new ship.

    Secondly, the time. If Brazil had waited 2 - 3 years on GARIBALDI, who is to say that they would have got the entire ship, or any of the support equipment, or the aircraft to operate her efficiently ? By the fact that they have a 'support ship', many of the things to keep her going are commercially available & may be compatible with other vessels that they have already purchased.

    Such support costs are actually more expensive than the cost of the ship itself, whether it be brand new, or 20 years old. Maintaining a ship correctly costs a fortune, so compatibility with other vessels, other systems & equipment that your navy may already be using actually saves money, as the common spare parts, are parts that you may well already have in storage. The compatibility of systems means that you save money on training costs, as your sailors already know how to operate / use / maintain the equipment.

    So at this time the Brazilian govt have probably paid less than 1/3 the cost of a brand new ship & are saving money.
     
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  15. AegisFC

    AegisFC Super Moderator Staff Member Verified Defense Pro

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    The USMC is planning on running their harrier fleet into the ground since they are replacing F-18's with F-35's first. They bought all the UK spares for that purpose and there won't be a flood of spares any time soon.

    India had about that many and they had lots of problems keeping more than a handful of SHAR's running at any given time.
    Also, deter who? They are a regional power but their ships generally don't venture too far from home or for very long. As for their neighbors Argentina just lost a sub from lack of maintenance and a few years back a frigate went belly up tied up in port. Venezuela is busy imploding and won't be recovering to be a threat any time soon.
     
  16. John Fedup

    John Fedup Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line is Brazil or any other country with a working economy in SA really doesn’t need this capability. As has already been mentioned, the only economic and well run country that might remotely be an adversary is Chile, more or less to the south and on the opposite side of the continent. Supporting a naval group via Cape Horn, how much fun would that be?
     
  17. Todjaeger

    Todjaeger Potstirrer

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    It seems pretty clear that the OP is of the opinion that Brazil should have purchased the Garibaldi instead of the ex-HMS Ocean. Before even getting into a discussion on what the Brazilian Navy conops would be for the ex-HMS Ocean or if it has been the Garibaldi, there are a pair of questions which need to be answered.

    The first question is by what time would the Brazilian Navy need to have the vessel commissioned and active in order to achieve any desired service capabilities? The second question (which relates to the first) is what vessels were available to Brazil for purchase and/or construction which would meet that timeline?

    At present, the Garibaldi is still in Italian service and like to continue to be until around 2021 or 2022, while Brazil announced the purchase of HMS Ocean in December of 2017. If Brazil wanted or needed a vessel in service on or before 2022, then the Garibaldi would automatically be excluded because it would not be available to meet that sort of schedule. Given that Brazil announced that they were decommissioning the Sao Paulo in Feb. 2017, and then announced the purchase of HMS Ocean in December of 2017 as a replacement, it seems that the Brazilian Navy was looking at a rapid replacement for some of the capabilities used and could not wait several more years for either a new built vessel or other 2nd hand vessels to become available.

    At this point, IMO it is pointless to advocate for the Garibaldi, as the vessel does not appear to have been available at all, during the time Brazil was making the decisions which led to purchasing the ex-HMS Ocean.
     
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  18. JFoulke

    JFoulke Member

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    Yeah you are right
     
  19. Systems Adict

    Systems Adict Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    What he said.....
     
  20. t68

    t68 Well-Known Member

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    Has this changed?

    seems a bit strange that they say they will retire the Harrier in 2025 but reactivate a number of older legacy Hornets into C plus configuration

    U.S. Marines to Retire Harrier Fleet Earlier Than Planned, Extend Life of Hornets - USNI News

    Marines Taking 30 Hornets From Boneyard To Boost Readiness