Security of defense technology and reverse engineering

[funtz]

I couldn’t find a previous thread specifically dealing with this issue so here goes something.


For its part, Moscow is unhappy with China's massive production of imitation versions of Russian weapons. Many Russian arms manufacturers have told the Western press how surprised they were by the scale of China's copycat capabilities. In many cases, Chinese dealers will express their intention to purchase Russian arms, begin negotiations, ask as many technical questions as possible, take photos and videos of the weapons, request all available documents, come back to the table to "discuss" more technical issues, and after a few more "negotiations," the dealers disappear. Two or three years later, a Chinese copy of the weapon under discussion appears on the international market.

A typical example is the Chinese A100 multiple launch rocket system (MLRS), an imitation of the Russian SMERCH MLRS, without even superficial changes in shape. The Chinese PLZ05 155-mm self-propelled gun (SPG) system is also a copy of the Russian 2S19M1 SPG.

The same trick has been used by the air force and navy. In the mid-1990s, China asked the Russian Phazotron Radar Design Bureau to help the PLAAF to upgrade their F8II fighters. For this purpose, China purchased two ZHUK-8II airborne radars from Phazotron. Certainly many technical documents were transferred, as the Chinese had promised to buy at least 100 of the radar devices. But, the Chinese never came back. Two years ago, the new Chinese F8IIM fighter was released with the new "indigenous multi-function radar."

"That is a copy of our radar," the designer of Phazotrol told this author. "We were so inexperienced at that time."

Along with the Type 956E/EM missile destroyer, the Chinese navy received subsystems from Russia including the Fregat M2EM 3D radar and MR-90 tracking radar and sonar. The same radar system has been seen on China's domestic Type 054A missile frigate (FFG).

"This is our radar!" was the first comment by Russian designers from Salyut factory when they saw photos of the 054A FFG taken from far. After more careful examination, they added, "Unbelievable, the speed at which they were copied."

Italy and France had similar experiences during their military cooperation honeymoon with China in the 1980s. At that time, China purchased two sets of Sea Tiger shipborne radars, two sets of Crotale air defense missiles, and two sets of the TAVITAC naval command and control systems from France, and a few sets of the sonar and EW systems from Italy. Chinese versions of the above systems are fitted on Chinese navy battleships today.

(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review, published in Hong Kong.)

http://www.upiasiaonline.com/securi...ussiachina_military_cooperation_on_the_rocks/

I do not know about the credentials of the author or the reputation he holds in defense analysis sector, if you have any resources about him well then please elaborate.

This is not a china specific thread, more of a emerging player's in the field thread.

Is reverse engineering of this scale feasible (stress on practicability)?
If yes, Can this provide a boost to a nation’s weapons research programs, considering that in my father’s generation Japan was accused of reverse engineering most of the western commercial technology?

Any informed opinion is appreciated (requested).

 

[AntiBond007]

I'm no expert. But as things get more and more high-tech, copying just hardware won't do. The software and code that operate the machinary are just as important, and ripping it off is not that easy (you can try to clone it, but how well will it work?). Thus, just because something looks the same, doesn't mean it works the same (and has the same proficiency). Again, just an educated guess.

 

[funtz]

well that too, I.E software codes that operate a machine (or any machine) if the original program is available then at least in the field of consumer electronics software-reverse engineering and cracking have been prevalent since the ibm days, and there is nothing available to compare the performance of copied products(at least not publicly). Furthermore specifically on the field of defense sector, does it actually bridge any gap(the process of reverse engineering), or just makes you that much more dependent on Foreign technology, all famous examples i got online were from the allies vs. axis war.

 

[Incognito129]

There are very little obstacles once they obtain the technology.

Of course there will be huge problems simply trying to copy what you see and what they say.

 

[AUSTEO]

For most of the kit the Chinese have knocked off over the years (and they have indeed copied a lot of gear), software has been a fairly small (or in many cases irrelevant) part of the overall system. It's a gap they can fill in for themselves with not too much trouble once they have the hardware and theory of operation down pat.

If they can get ahold of software or detailed development documentation of the same while they're copying everything else, the process just gets easier.

 

[funtz]

still does not answer the question, does this help in the development of defense sector and ability or just make you dependent on outside technology, and what steps are genrally implemented to avoid such things,
As it is a large contract genrally comes with transfer of some technology.

 

[Wooki]

still does not answer the question, does this help in the development of defense sector and ability or just make you dependent on outside technology, and what steps are genrally implemented to avoid such things,
As it is a large contract genrally comes with transfer of some technology.

Yes, No, and you don't tell them how to do it.

cheers

w

 

[funtz]

if that is the dept that the answer to my question required then, without being sarcastic, i sincerely apologize for wasting your time.

 

[Wooki]

if that is the dept that the answer to my question required then, without being sarcastic, i sincerely apologize for wasting your time.

No, I am not being flippant. I just have to run. Just because someone asks you something does not mean tos ay you ahve to answer them or comply.

There is a pendulum with regard to information sharing. There are State Secrets and there are commercial secrets. In the case of companies that came out of the Soviet era, they were used to being told what to do and what not to do. So they figured if something was not covered by a "State Secret" act, then it was ok to divulge that information.

In other words they absolved themselves of responsibility to the commercial entity, by relying on a third party (the Russian Government) to tell them what to do.

That is why you have copies of their equipment cropping up.

So, when asked a question you have to make a hard nosed risk assessment and what your return on investment is. For example (1): I can't talk any longer because I have more pressing matters to attend to.

Example (2): If I am a Russian businessman who has no training in business, yet I am intuitively aware that I need to make a sale to ensure my company's survival, do I give up the info that this Chinese guy is asking for? Invariably during the 90's, the answer was "yes" and it was the wrong answer.

Interestingly enough this was a nation wide epidemic in Russia as very few men had a good business nose. Those that did have a good nose, became extremely wealthy. Putin's "crack down" (funnily enough) has gladly accepted the role of government overseer, which most of the bleating flock in Russia have viewed with relief. If Putin plays his card right he can actually act as an incubator for Russian Defense until they get a new line of kids coming in who are better educated in the business of conductng business.

I wouldn't expect to see the same volume of leakage froma capitalist based economy like India, Australia or the USA, but things happen. In other words different species of fish so different tactics are adopted to steal commercial secrets.

cheers

w

 

[WAR]

Reverse engineering is a common factor these days. You can't put to hold such things when there is a cut-throat competetion in military sales.

And in addition, reverse enginerred products are comparatively and relatively cheap. Though they don't match the actual quality and precision in most of the cases. But surely a sigh of relief for the developing countries which are always short of budget.

But, having said this, the issue of intellectual property rights is there, and needs to be sorted out.

 

[funtz]

thank you, for that insight.

 

[Pro'forma]

Retraining and plural version of it is desirable.

Security of defence technology has been bringing glimmer of hope, in
earnest, saving all real technology achievements.

It comes to land, justice of patent. So often you can hear that the talks ended in stalemate. From this view it shows clearly our capability not to live up to our land. On other view, if there wasn't any illegal/legal conception
to make a technology, we have to decide/ choose the invention and our
right to sell it. It's too easy to copy and copy from someone else.

Would be more challenging to have a national ability to national technology,
and not to presume and pretend something like "borrowing international
typefonts".

Hasn't security become a prevaricating and forget its mission ? Not accusing
security is using selfish self-satisfaction to secure international trade,
not thinking any matter of conscience sell the best price.
International circumstances usually avoid crime against property or damage to none property.
Assumption should be in those flag-lands to make a best knowledge of their
own with help of international standardization.

I'm waiting equal wealth to all flags, not experimental expiation, so called
cheating.

 

[Firehorse]

Engineer Gets 24 1/2 Years in Prison

It would interesting if this is another Wen Ho Lee type case, if what his defense argues is true. BTW, Russia also had people arrested on spy charges after non-classified info. was being leaked, and Tom Clancy was questioned about his sources- he proved that only open-sources were used in his novels.

US investigates Taiwan arms error