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This is a discussion on Submarine news within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by StingrayOZ Do we need to start making Diesel boats forever badges? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel...rever_insignia Maybe have the mermaids without ...


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Old April 4th, 2016   #61
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Do we need to start making Diesel boats forever badges?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel...rever_insignia

Maybe have the mermaids without scales, more like the RAN dolphins.



Might eliminate a whole bunch, who use it as SOP.
For a chance at a 50 billion contract, the German and French contenders are going to baffle and hustle big time. For sure a bid will cost millions but for billions they have no choice but to try.
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Old April 4th, 2016   #62
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I noticed Hmas Adelaide and an Anzac left Sydney yesterday together, anyone know if they are headed to Jervis Bay for the joint exercise with Japan?

Is it a concern that the Hakuryu (Soryu) and the 2 x Destroyers they are sending have to stop at Guam to I assume refuel. The distance from Tokyo to Sydney is Approx 7,800kms, Tokyo to Guam 2500kms.

Can this be an "indication" of it's current range limitations at all ?
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Old April 5th, 2016   #63
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I noticed Hmas Adelaide and an Anzac left Sydney yesterday together, anyone know if they are headed to Jervis Bay for the joint exercise with Japan?

Is it a concern that the Hakuryu (Soryu) and the 2 x Destroyers they are sending have to stop at Guam to I assume refuel. The distance from Tokyo to Sydney is Approx 7,800kms, Tokyo to Guam 2500kms.

Can this be an "indication" of it's current range limitations at all ?
Not particularly. Submariners/surface ships like fresh air, food and sunshine too. I would assume for such an operation you would want to refuel/restock as frequently as possible. Guam is a major US base in the region and no reason to bypass it. It would be like sailing to the US west coast and not stopping at Hawaii, for one thing your crew would be disappointed. Hawaii is a major base. You don't have to max out your endurance every single trip. Australian ships for example often stop at Singapore, even though they have endurance to go further than this, but its at a key strategic junction, friendly, flag wave, historical, social etc.

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For a chance at a 50 billion contract, the German and French contenders are going to baffle and hustle big time. For sure a bid will cost millions but for billions they have no choice but to try.
There is quite a bit at stake above and beyond the 50 billion. I would imagine Australia is a fairly influential player in the arms market as a buyer. We are also big enough that other may seek commonality with us. Also what other deals might Japan (or other nations) have in the future as a possible arms exporter (not particularly on subs)?

Navantia seems to use the Australian selection of the AWD and the LHD pretty widely in publicity material. I imagine it possibly influenced Turkey a bit in their procurement of a full sized LHD from them (rather than a smaller original sized one or one with out a ski jump).
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Old April 5th, 2016   #64
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I noticed Hmas Adelaide and an Anzac left Sydney yesterday together, anyone know if they are headed to Jervis Bay for the joint exercise with Japan?

Is it a concern that the Hakuryu (Soryu) and the 2 x Destroyers they are sending have to stop at Guam to I assume refuel. The distance from Tokyo to Sydney is Approx 7,800kms, Tokyo to Guam 2500kms.

Can this be an "indication" of it's current range limitations at all ?
they're actually doing a showing the flag exercise - the filipinos have also invited them to drop in - just the thing to arc up the PLAN
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Old April 5th, 2016   #65
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I would imagine Australia is a fairly influential player in the arms market as a buyer.
In the trade its referred to as a reference or gold site - ie if purchased by australia it can have some influence or cachet as they compliance standards are quite high and can provide some comfort to other customers.

SIngapore is another
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Old April 5th, 2016   #66
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Canada has been involved with nuclear power development for over 60 years and over 20,000 people are directly employed with another 10,000 sub- contractor employees. Nuclear powered vessels could be supported. If the RCN were allowed to pursue nuclear propulsion, it would likely have to be a foreign purchase as it is unlikely the government would support the creation of a submarine construction industry. We already have enough headaches with the surface ship industry.
I was involved with UK and (briefly) US submarine construction for most of my working life. I can testify that a shore based nuclear power generation infrastructure is not the same thing. We're talking about nuclear propulsion - not megawatts. There's a difference. You're correct - assuming that Canada wouldn't want to build a brand new design from keel (yes that word is still applicable) up, you would be looking at UK, US or French designs. It's unclear that any of those governments would be willing to share classified nuclear propulsion technology. Would the funding be available to build a Canadian version of Faslane or Groton ? I doubt it, and don't underestimate the public resistance to basing near urban centres (Halifax, Victoria). Speaking of funding - in 2013 Electric Boat was awarded a contract for a 10 "Virginia" class submarines at USD17.6 billion. Not going to happen. AIP might be a different proposition.
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Old April 5th, 2016   #67
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Christopher Pyne seems to think Sub Announcement is "Very Likely" prior to election.

There is the potential of further jobs losses at Employer "Arrium" Whyalla (SA) in the news today (up to 3000), this would just add to SA's poor unemployment figure. Does make sense they need to make a big statement "soon" to regain SA votes.

Submarine announcement 'very likely' to be made before election, Christopher Pyne says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Old April 5th, 2016   #68
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Christopher Pyne seems to think Sub Announcement is "Very Likely" prior to election.

There is the potential of further jobs losses at Employer "Arrium" Whyalla (SA) in the news today (up to 3000), this would just add to SA's poor unemployment figure. Does make sense they need to make a big statement "soon" to regain SA votes.

Submarine announcement 'very likely' to be made before election, Christopher Pyne says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I'm sure Christopher is hoping there is. I would expect details about each options local content would be useful for everyone to release. Particularly with SA and WA work.
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Old April 5th, 2016   #69
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I'm sure Christopher is hoping there is. I would expect details about each options local content would be useful for everyone to release. Particularly with SA and WA work.
Several years back an esteemed colleague of mine outlined the ideal arrangements for a local submarine build. Basically he suggested improving rail infrastructure to Adelaide from the eastern states, building most of the machinery and major auxiliaries in Bendigo with much non structural fabrication subcontracted to Melbourne and Newcastle, structural to Henderson and Adelaide, assembly, activation, testing and acceptance in Adelaide. Integration and testing of subsystems and assemblies could be done at the subcontractors in the Eastern states. Basically an Adelaide build would spread the work throughout the country and provide a robust supply chain for the indefinite support of a local build.

Ideally FCDs (full cycle dockings), or major refits for the uninitiated, would be done in Adelaide by means of cutting the hull and withdrawing entire rafts machinery/accommodation/combat systems etc. refurbish the hull and replacing them with new ones, fully assembled, tested and ready to go. The old rafts would be broken down and equipment surveyed to determine whether it should be refurbished or replaced and the raft rebuilt ready for the next boat due for FCD.

This process would keep all the suppliers in work in between new builds as well as keep existing boats close to the same capability and performance levels of new build ones. Yes we will be spending more than we did but this critical mass of work will result in much better value for money and higher availability levels than we ever achieved before.
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Old April 6th, 2016   #70
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V, that's section on rail infrastructure there is a way of doing that without going to the expence of building a triple gauge rail corridor. You can lift the rolling stock and bogie exchange, we used to do this upto about 20 odd years ago to overcome the problem of diffrent gauges.

But then they could do the triple gauge rail project in certain place as part of nation building, could have been done along the way of expanding Techport.
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Old April 6th, 2016   #71
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V, that's section on rail infrastructure there is a way of doing that without going to the expence of building a triple gauge rail corridor. You can lift the rolling stock and bogie exchange, we used to do this upto about 20 odd years ago to overcome the problem of diffrent gauges.

But then they could do the triple gauge rail project in certain place as part of nation building, could have been done along the way of expanding Techport.
It was more about tunnels and bridges to permit the efficient movement of outsized items quickly and efficiently, i.e. without having to use barges after transporting it the items to a port. Improved rail infrastructure means existing industrial capability can be used more easily or maybe even for the first time.
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Old April 6th, 2016   #72
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I can testify that a shore based nuclear power generation infrastructure is not the same thing. We're talking about nuclear propulsion - not megawatts.
Power plant and sub reactor operation skill sets will be somewhat similar. Sub reactors are smaller and have higher power densities (use more highly enriched U-235 in their fuel rods). Both are producing steam for turbine operation of generators but most subs will have gearbox/shaft for propulsion. The US did build two electric motor subs in lieu of a gearbox setup and the French build their SSNs this way. For larger subs like US SSNs, the USN decided steam powered shafts with gearbox provided better speed than electric motors. Perhaps the newer electric motor technology used in the Darling Type 45 and Zumwalt DDG 1000 might be considered for future USN SSNs or SSBNs.

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It's unclear that any of those governments would be willing to share classified nuclear propulsion technology.
US approval would be required for either the US or UK reactor design as the UK's was derived from a USN design. The US would be the likely choice and there isn't a lot of negatives to having Canada using SSNs plus there would be export dollars and enhanced security for North America. Japan is offering Australia its sub technology for the same reasons.

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Would the funding be available to build a Canadian version of Faslane or Groton ? I doubt it, and don't underestimate the public resistance to basing near urban centres (Halifax, Victoria).
It is questionable if any money will be available for a submarine of any type for the RCN in the future with junior in charge. AIP for Arctic patrol is a pi$$poor solution unless the polar cap melts or we only due summer patrols. Canada's largest population centre (Greater Toronto Area) has 16 reactors within a half hour drive. I can't see the population of a naval town like Halifax being too concerned about SSNs in the harbour. Unlike Toronto's nearby reactors, a SSN can always be towed to sea.

Last edited by John Fedup; April 6th, 2016 at 01:18 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old April 6th, 2016   #73
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It was more about tunnels and bridges to permit the efficient movement of outsized items quickly and efficiently, i.e. without having to use barges after transporting it the items to a port. Improved rail infrastructure means existing industrial capability can be used more easily or maybe even for the first time.

yep, and those bridges and tunnels (preferably) needed to comply with NATO specs for logistics commonality and compliance. ie min (pref standard) height and load constraints
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Old April 7th, 2016   #74
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JT ran a line:


Turnbull says decision close on Australian submarine contract | The Japan Times
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Old April 7th, 2016   #75
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Interesting to note ASC could be split, and sold to the winner. All ships portion would then be up for grabs to the highest bidder, more than likely Austal it seems.

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/au...205308051.html
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