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RSN capabilities

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Old December 31st, 2007   #31
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Old December 31st, 2007   #32
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Technically yes they will be able to launch Aster 30, though not at their maximum range because there's no long range air search radar. Currently Herakles and Arabel radars are limited to a range of approx 150km against small jets, which is a bit tight vs the 120km range of an Aster 30.
The official range is 250Km, how do you know the range of the Herakles against small jets?
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Old January 12th, 2008   #33
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RSN Capabilities

Dear All,

Does anyone have any updates on the RSN Formidable Frigates?

It is likely that the RSN will equip these frigates with A-50 vl/Aster 30 missile?

Please refer to the link below:

1. go to www.wikipedia.com, search for phased array
refer to the following article:
Likewise, the Thales Herakles phased array multi-function radar onboard the Formidable class frigates of the Republic of Singapore Navy has a track capacity of 200 targets and is able to achieve automatic target detection, confirmation and track initiation in a single scan, while simultaneously providing mid-course guidance updates to the MBDA Aster missiles launched from the ship.[5]
The article mentioned Aster missile and not exactly Aster 15.

refer to article of the Aegis SPY1 radar:
The AN/SPY-1 phased array radar, part of the Aegis combat system deployed on modern U.S. cruisers and destroyers, "is able to perform search, track and missile guidance functions simultaneously with a capability of over 100 targets."[4]
Post your views gentlemen, it is most likely the Aster 30 will be procured.

Cheers!

Best Regards
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Old January 16th, 2008   #34
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Originally Posted by SGMilitary View Post
Dear All,

Does anyone have any updates on the RSN Formidable Frigates?

It is likely that the RSN will equip these frigates with A-50 vl/Aster 30 missile?

Please refer to the link below:

1. go to www.wikipedia.com, search for phased array
refer to the following article:
Likewise, the Thales Herakles phased array multi-function radar onboard the Formidable class frigates of the Republic of Singapore Navy has a track capacity of 200 targets and is able to achieve automatic target detection, confirmation and track initiation in a single scan, while simultaneously providing mid-course guidance updates to the MBDA Aster missiles launched from the ship.[5]
The article mentioned Aster missile and not exactly Aster 15.

refer to article of the Aegis SPY1 radar:
The AN/SPY-1 phased array radar, part of the Aegis combat system deployed on modern U.S. cruisers and destroyers, "is able to perform search, track and missile guidance functions simultaneously with a capability of over 100 targets."[4]
Post your views gentlemen, it is most likely the Aster 30 will be procured.

Cheers!

Best Regards

The Herakles can guide the Aster 30s but since it would spot incoming jets (of the size of a MIG29, say) at maximum 150km it would not be able to exploit properly the full 120km range of the Aster 30.
Same for current EMPAR. That's why Finmeccanica developed a ESD version with active array and longer range, to ensure the ship can leverage Aster30 to full range without a long range 3d air search radar.
So, yes I would expect the RSN to take the Aster 30s after all, but the ship would not have the same AAW capability of Daring or Horizon DDGs or even ESD variant of FREMMs. Still much better than only having the Aster 15s

cheers
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Old January 16th, 2008   #35
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Originally Posted by contedicavour View Post
The Herakles can guide the Aster 30s but since it would spot incoming jets (of the size of a MIG29, say) at maximum 150km it would not be able to exploit properly the full 120km range of the Aster 30.
Same for current EMPAR. That's why Finmeccanica developed a ESD version with active array and longer range, to ensure the ship can leverage Aster30 to full range without a long range 3d air search radar.
So, yes I would expect the RSN to take the Aster 30s after all, but the ship would not have the same AAW capability of Daring or Horizon DDGs or even ESD variant of FREMMs. Still much better than only having the Aster 15s

cheers

The Italian and French Navies have different doctrines. The MN needs more major surface combatants than the MM. The French FREMMs will be much cheaper than the Italian FREMMs. The French FREMMs short range AAW capabilities are very good. There medium range AAW capabilities are unknown at this time.

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Old January 17th, 2008   #36
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Old January 18th, 2008   #37
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Originally Posted by weasel1962 View Post
Source of 150km pls. I hate to think that this is solely on the basis of an anonymous wiki post eg A50 acquisition.
Nothing to do with wikipedia... Thales claims 250km max range for Herakles (ie against a civilian airliner or a cold war vintage bomber). Finmeccanica claims 250km for the current EMPAR (much more for the new active phased array being prepared for 2011). Against a Tornado IDS flying low (< 500ft) range is 150km. So I presume the real range against a modern fighterbomber is 150km for Herakles as well.
By the way, it makes sense : otherwise why would the navy bother installing long range air search radar to fully utilize Aster 30 potential (range 120km) if Herakles and current Empar were already capable of reaching 250km range ??

cheers
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Old January 18th, 2008   #38
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Old January 21st, 2008   #39
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Any personnel from RSN or MBDA around?

It is affirmative that the RSN will be fitting the Aster 30/A50 VL on board

her stealth frigates?

And are you guys aware that the Israeli made EL 2238 STAR radar on board

the RSN LST are also advanced radar?

Cheers!

Thanks & regards.

Last edited by SGMilitary; January 21st, 2008 at 04:01 AM. Reason: spelling error
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Old January 23rd, 2008   #40
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Old January 23rd, 2008   #41
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Are you posting as a fact or as a question? If question, then the answer is no, at present.
Possible. RSN is buying the Slyver launchers separately. While initial batches could be A43 launchers(im not even certain about this), the remaining batches could be A50s. As I`ve said, the A50 launchers were still undergoing testing when the Formidables were being built. The tests were pretty recent as well.

The Formidable can accommodate as many as 48 cells in front of the bridge afterall. My gut feelings is that the Formidable could possibly end up with A70 launchers(or a version of it) in the end and the RSN is actually waiting for the latter to be ready. I dont see a problem in installing them on the ship; especially if you consider the fact that she would not have a problem in putting on Mk41 tactical or perhaps strategic launchers. That would give the RSN the flexibility of putting a variety of other missiles in the launchers in the future(im assuming that the A70 launchers will be made out with that flexibility as I`ve read about it sometime not too long ago).

A version of PAAMs, the SAAM AD(consisting of both Aster 15s and 30s) is already available; for the anti-air FREMM version I reckon. That could be a possible make-out for the Formidable class; for a possible 32 Aster 30 and 16 Aster 15 missile load-out in war-time per frigate.
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Old January 24th, 2008   #42
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Old January 24th, 2008   #43
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I think the formidable may be upgraded if there is a need but I think it is pretty clear that the Aster 15 equips the formidable at this time
That is what has been stated officially. But that could also mean what Mindef has bought only recently. You`ve mentioned that 200 Aster 15 missiles have been purchased thus far to equip 11 ships from various navies.

How many would go into RSN`s hands? If you are to take the current percieved missle load-out of 32 Aster missiles per ship and assume that all the 200 missiles are meant for Singapore(which is not the case), that would mean that it would be just right for the 6 frigates in the RSN. But that is not the case of course and that would invariably mean that the RSN has yet to procure more Aster missiles and as a related point Slyver launchers(which could be A43 or A50) as well.

Im only speculating here.
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Old January 24th, 2008   #44
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Old January 24th, 2008   #45
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I'm not speculating anything. I'm just pointing out that MBDA indicated in their press release that the Aster 15 Naval will equip 6 ships in a foreign navy. No one else uses the Aster 15 naval system other than specified in the press release. By logical assumption, the Aster 15 naval system will equip all 6 ships of the RSN because there is no other navy that falls under that category with that number of ships equipped with the Aster.
Yes, I know you are`nt which is why i said that is what is known officially thus far. However, I pointed out in my previous posts that 200 Aster 15 missiles would not be enough to accomodate all 11 ships. At the mentioned current 32 vls cells per ship, the 6 formidable class ships alone would need a minimum of 256 missiles.

Hence, these navies would be making further orders of the Aster missiles and possibly slyver launchers (A43 or A50)as well. They could be Aster 30 missiles and slyver A50 launchers. If you take a look at the Al-sawari class ships, each ship is armed with just 16 Aster 15 missiles or 16 vls cells with the capacity to accomodate more in the future. The same applies to the Formidable which can accomodate more than 32 vls cells.


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The press releases were in 2001 and 2002. Sure, the RSN may have changed their minds but that's speculation and very unlikely. Contract provisions rarely work that way. The Formidable was launched in 2002, 2 more in 2003 etc. At the same time, MBDA may of course be lying

Also, the Mindef fact sheet indicated that the system was similar to the CDG. They could have indicated it as similar to the Horizons etc but they didn't.
The old contracts could have been fully exercised and new ones negotiated seeing as such SAF buys her wares in batches. As mentioned, the RSN obviously has not bought all the slyver launchers and Asters at one go. Newer orders may not be reflected as the press releases which were made nearly 6-7 years ago.

Well, we are all to familiar with how charitable Mindef has been with the release of information are we not ?


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I think many would like to see the A70 launchers in the Formidables but that didn't happen. Haven't read anything that remotely suggest otherwise.
How could it happen when it is`nt even ready and for sale? The idea of RSN equipping her frigates with Aster 15 missiles/A43(or A50) launchers first and later the A70 launchers is`nt too far fetched.(assuming the A70 launchers can be fitted on board the ship).

You buy the launchers in packs of 8 vls cells and have it installed on the ship on the designated deck space. It does not mean that if a designated deck space has space for 48 cells(i.e 6 8-celled launchers), you`ll put all 6 launchers there immediately. You could, in the case of some navies around the world, reserve the space for future growth.
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