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This is a discussion on RSN capabilities within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by t68 This might give you a clue, ST Marine teaming with ADSB to Propose Endurance-class LHD to ...


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Old May 19th, 2017   #256
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This might give you a clue,
ST Marine teaming with ADSB to Propose Endurance-class LHD to UAE Navy

ST Marine also pitched the design to the UAE at NavDex 17,I'm also hope NZ look at the design as an expansion JATF
Different designs. The Navy Recognition story is for the Endurance 140 / 160 design whereas the Shepherd news story is about the Endurance 170 design which is a new design and more capable vis a vis the 160.
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Old May 19th, 2017   #257
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Different designs. The Navy Recognition story is for the Endurance 140 / 160 design whereas the Shepherd news story is about the Endurance 170 design which is a new design and more capable vis a vis the 160.
Agreed, it is quite interesting to see the evolution and compromises made (e.g. with regard to speed). With 5 helicopter landing spots on the full-length 4,200m² flight deck, plus a below-deck hangar deck can accommodate ten medium-sized helicopters, the Endurance 170 (link to Shepherd news article again) has a full load displacement of 19,000ton, is 170m in length and 30.8m in width. Its ship crew numbers 140 plus 150 for the air crew. It can also carry up to 400 troops. Maximum speed is listed as 20kt, its range as 7,000nm and an endurance of 30 days. The well deck can accommodate four landing craft plus up to 17 tanks on the vehicle deck. Another deck can fit 16 30ton armoured vehicles. A 1,000m² medical facility, with three operating theatres, 10 intensive care unit beds and 17 beds in the hospital wards, is integral to the design.

Not sure how preliminary this 170 design is, or if the longer length is intended to address 160 limitations for a specific sales prospect or to provide optionality. IMO the design may still change and evolve as they mature the concept.
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Old May 19th, 2017   #258
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Different designs. The Navy Recognition story is for the Endurance 140 / 160 design whereas the Shepherd news story is about the Endurance 170 design which is a new design and more capable vis a vis the 160.
A fair bit more capable from what I have been able to tell, B capable from my understanding. Very interesting indeed

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Old May 19th, 2017   #259
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A fair bit more capable from what I have been able to tell, B capable from my understanding. Very interesting indeed

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With the announcement of the two additional Type 218SGs, for a squadron of 4, the pending JMMS decision and the commissioning of RSS Independence (as the first of eight in the class), the Singapore Navy's recent evolution is certainly interesting. But important to keep in mind the limitations of this small but capable navy as it evolves its littoral strategy; and not over estimate its nascent capabilities as it embarks on this exciting growth path.

I will try to track the development of the SAF's HADR capabilities and MINDEF has released pictures of container medical modules deployed on the Endurance Class 140 flight deck that would nicely fit in the belly of the JMMS for onward deployment to disaster relief areas (in addition to medical facilities on this Endurance 170 design).

I have seen some discussions elsewhere where some locals are a little too enthusiastic in making claims without understanding the context. However, it is understandable, as I am guilty of that too. In this regard, I am specifically thinking about task group speed operating limitations with the JMMS (and the potential need for more S-70B Seahawks beyond the current 8) and the lack of a dedicated air search radar on the Formidable Class.

From a people development perspective, the JMMS is exciting news as it will give our air force pilots and air controllers sea-legs and a career path forward in working on a navy ship in a joint force context for the SAF.
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Old May 20th, 2017   #260
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Different designs. The Navy Recognition story is for the Endurance 140 / 160 design whereas the Shepherd news story is about the Endurance 170 design which is a new design and more capable vis a vis the 160.
No doubt ST are evolving and tweaking the design but both the 160-and 170 from what I can find online are pretty much the same, I imagine the 170 will be using the extra size to increase bunkerage magazine and slightly larger hanger space. That Seasheaperd article is the only peice of infomation I can find on the variant which is pretty much say identical 160 in capabilty terms.

http://www.stengg.com/media/30764/en...tform-dock.pdf

If someone can point me into a better site showing the difference between the two that would be appreciated.
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Old May 20th, 2017   #261
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No doubt ST are evolving and tweaking the design but both the 160-and 170 from what I can find online are pretty much the same, I imagine the 170 will be using the extra size to increase bunkerage magazine and slightly larger hanger space. That Seasheaperd article is the only peice of infomation I can find on the variant which is pretty much say identical 160 in capabilty terms.

http://www.stengg.com/media/30764/en...tform-dock.pdf

If someone can point me into a better site showing the difference between the two that would be appreciated.
If you look at the Endurance 170 LHA as described in the Shepherd news article there is quite a bit of difference so I would suggest that you read the article and then undertake a compare and contrast exercise, because having read it once i for one have noticed some quite distinctive differences.
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Old June 2nd, 2017   #262
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Submarines enable Singapore to change the posture of 171 squadron and to move our submarines to an area of potential conflict (such as the South China Sea) or silently observing the activities of pirate havens, to enable the our navy to monitor developments. With 70m long submarines that are the newest and most quiet in Southeast Asia, all these patrols can be done below the surface undetected and without provocation.

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Singapore Navy to add 2 more submarines to fleet

SINGAPORE: Two more Type-218SG submarines from Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems will be added to the Republic of Singapore Navy’s (RSN) fleet from 2024.
According to a statement from the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF), the new submarines boast design innovations to optimise training, operation and maintenance costs. They will also be equipped with "significantly improved capabilities" like modern combat systems and Air Independent Propulsion systems.
The ministry's contract with the shipbuilders includes a logistics package and a crew training arrangement in Germany.
Calling the move “another important step in the RSN’s modernisation effort”, Dr Ng said that the RSN needed to keep pace with the growth of other navies in Asia – spurred by the need to protect trade and other maritime interests.

“ASEAN countries, Australia, China and India have all increased the strength of their navies, with naval budgets in the Asia Pacific region expected to increase by 60 per cent through 2020,” he said. The minister also highlighted a report by naval defence market analysts AMI International, which estimated that approximately 800 more warships and submarines will operate in the Asia Pacific region by 2030.

“To be effective, the RSN needs to keep pace with this growth of navies in Asia. At steady state, the four Type-218SGs in service will complement each other in maintenance, logistics and operations, and have better capabilities to protect our sea lines of communication,” he said.
------

Why order more when the first boat is yet to hit the water. Perhaps TKMS is really in need of more work and is giving Singapore a great deal.
Let me share an expert point of view (POV) on the increase in the number of submarines operating in Asia and its risks. See Asian Sub Spending Spree Raises Risks of Mistakes, Escalation, for details. The important question, of course, is not numbers as Singapore is only going to operate 4 Type 218SG submarines but quality of the crew and the technology employed to gain a secret edge. In the intricate cat-and-mouse game of submarine operations, the secret technological edge used and the skill of the crew is as important as the raw numbers for submarine patrols (that is measured in the increase of sea patrol days with new submarines).

In particular, the following quote in the POV will support my case for Singapore's pressing need for more capable submarines to ensure that our submarines have a technological edge to perform the difficult missions sets that we would require of them should the need arise. This link will provide the context to augment my prior posts on why this timely acquisition is not a mistake.

"Question by The CiperBrief: What types of submarines are countries mainly acquiring and what capabilities are these countries hoping to gain by buying new submarines? What can they do that other systems and platforms, or older submarines cannot do?

Collin Koh's POV: Some common trends in Asian submarine acquisitions (and their accompanying attributes) include being larger in physical size (which translates into larger capacity for combat capabilities such as sensors and weapons, more fuel and battery capacity, as well as redundant spaces for future upgrades, and possibly affording better crew habitability), translating into longer range and seakeeping qualities. They are also increasingly emerging with propulsion/power enhancements such as air-independent propulsion (AIP) that confers extended submerged endurance and reduces the need for snorkeling. Later units of the Japanese Soryu class will be progressively equipped with lithium-ion batteries that confer not just extended underwater endurance but also burst speeds that would be necessary for fast pursuit and evasive maneuvers. The South Koreans are also looking into lithium-ion batteries for future submarine classes.

In addition to physical size increases and propulsion/power enhancements, the submarines in the pipeline or entering service with Asian navies are also quieter – they come with internal acoustic dampening features and, most importantly of all, anechoic anti-sonar tiles coating the outer hull. Where combat systems are concerned, let us first talk about sensors. Past submarine classes were more simply equipped, with perhaps a basic bow or hull-mounted sonar, the obligatory attack and search periscopes, passive intercept systems, and a simple surface search radar. But new classes coming online or already inducted come increasingly with a more comprehensive suite of sensors – a holistic sonar fit, including not just bow or hull-mounted sonars but also passive intercept, flank and even towed-array sonar arrays to give a much wider coverage at various ranges and for different depth performances – and for some classes, including also an optronic (or photonic) mast that replaces the old-fashioned periscope. Even surface radar is better, and the submarines will also come with better electronic warfare capabilities that aid their intelligence-gathering missions.

However, the most telling advancement over the past classes is in the realm of weapons payloads for these new submarines. Besides the trusty torpedoes and mines, Asian navies are also inducting new submarines with enhanced long-range strike capabilities. For example, more are armed with underwater-to-surface guided weapons such as anti-ship missiles. This complements the torpedoes with a long-range strike weapon. But we also observe a growing appetite in submarine-launched land-attack cruise missiles – this pattern being most prevalent in South and Northeast Asian subregions and, to a much lesser extent, Southeast Asia. This is perhaps the most prominent change from the past, when Asian submarines tended to have zero or very limited expeditionary force projection capabilities. And we can also expect in the future that Asian submarines will work more closely in tandem with unmanned systems, and also more involved in special forces operations."
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Old June 5th, 2017   #263
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Submarines enable Singapore to change the posture of 171 squadron and to move our submarines to an area of potential conflict (such as the South China Sea) or silently observing the activities of pirate havens, to enable the our navy to monitor developments. With 70m long submarines that are the newest and most quiet in Southeast Asia, all these patrols can be done below the surface undetected and without provocation.
Interesting to watch what RSN would want to do to uplift the underwater capability. Getting 2 more Type 218SG is definitely both a smart move but yet beg more questions, should Singapore have waited for the Saab Kockum A26 instead and re-establish Singapore and Sweden close co-operation for so many years. Perhaps Singapore has been too much invested into Type 218SG and the Swedish have missed the boat - pun intended.

A26 would definitely provide many more interesting capability, not least, the ability to shoot land attack cruise missiles, acting as the mothership for UUVs.

Would it be unimaginable if RSN acquire A26s in the next decade, to supplement the Type 218SGs? Will Singapore now swing towards the Germans and slowly abandon the Swedes?

I suppose I have too many questions, only time will tell.
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Old June 5th, 2017   #264
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I will try to track the development of the SAF's HADR capabilities and MINDEF has released pictures of container medical modules deployed on the Endurance Class 140 flight deck that would nicely fit in the belly of the JMMS for onward deployment to disaster relief areas (in addition to medical facilities on this Endurance 170 design).

From a people development perspective, the JMMS is exciting news as it will give our air force pilots and air controllers sea-legs and a career path forward in working on a navy ship in a joint force context for the SAF.
JMMS is a capability needs defined by the Mindef (first brought up by Dr Ng Eng Hen - def min). But we have heard of nothing since, other than a brief inspection of the Mistral class when the French was reselling the two built for Russia.

I suspect RSN is still trying to work out what exact capability it wants other than generalising to just the HADR missions. I suppose they would have to define its "secondary" - or war-fighting capabilities too, perhaps performing the role of the LHD, anti-submarine helo carrier?

How many of these JMMS will be needed? 1 ship, 2 ships or even more? Will they replace all the Endurance class LST/LPD or only some of them? Crew size? too many things to work out - all specific to Singapore's requirement and perceived mission profiles and theatres of operation.
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Old June 9th, 2017   #265
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JMMS is a capability needs defined by the Mindef (first brought up by Dr Ng Eng Hen - def min). But we have heard of nothing since...
At 170 metres in length, the JMMS (i.e. the Endurance 170) can act as a command and logistic support vessel for humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR) and can potentially perform three key war fighting roles (at different times):

One, as an amphibious assault ship, the JMMS can be used for force projection over the littorals and across the surf zones to land an amphibious force onto a beach head. Depending on the aviation assets embarked from the Republic of Singapore Air Force (e.g. AH-64E Apache helicopters), it can even provide close air support for the Singapore Army's designated landing force.

Two, the JMMS can be used as a platform for airborne mine countermeasures missions for the RSN, again if there are helicopters like the MH-53E is embarked. However, presently, Singapore has no plans to acquire such helicopters; and the RSN has the Bedok Class mine countermeasures vessels (MCMVs), autonomous unmanned vessels and associated systems, to deal with this threat.

Three, the JMMS can be a potent anti-submarine platform (as long as the appropriate mix of anti-submarine helicopters, like the Seahawk are carried) for the RSN to establish sea control within 1,000 km (or 540 n. miles) of Singapore.

In the future, for HADR missions the JMMS' large capacity for cargo means more relief supplies can be carried. Heavy vehicles and mechanized equipment can be embarked and disembarked with relative ease. With an advanced communications suite and it can be used as a command and communications centre for the relief mission. Further, the JMMS will have a 1,000m² medical facility, with three operating theatres, 10 intensive care unit beds and 17 beds in the hospital wards, as integral to the Endurance 170 design. Most importantly its fleet of H225M utility helicopters and CH-47F helicopters can be deployed from the ship to provide in theatre airlift capabilities when roads and airfields are completely destroyed in major disasters.

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How many of these JMMS will be needed? 1 ship, 2 ships or even more? Will they replace all the Endurance class LST/LPD or only some of them? Crew size? too many things to work out - all specific to Singapore's requirement and perceived mission profiles and theatres of operation.
At least 2 ships of a class? The Endurance 170 ship crew complement according to ST Marine's video and news reports is 140 sailors, the air crew 150 and the vessel can accommodate another 400 troops, in addition to a 1,000m² medical facility, with three operating theatres, 10 intensive care unit beds and 17 beds in the hospital wards.
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