Ireland to buy Javelin Anti-Tank Weapon System

The Watcher

New Member
For them british tanks invading it? :D

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TUCSON, Ariz. --- The Irish Department of Defence has publicly acknowledged its selection of Javelin for Ireland’s medium range anti-tank guided weapon requirement. The Irish government signed its Letter of Agreement with the U.S. government for the procurement of Javelin last year for approximately $12.5 million.

This selection marks the Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin Joint Venture’s first sale to a neutral, non-aligned nation that has actively supported numerous United Nations peacekeeping operations throughout the world. To date, seven international customers have selected Javelin.

“The United States government is extremely pleased that the Irish Department of Defence selected Javelin after conducting its extensive and thorough assessment of all candidate systems,†said Col. Lloyd McDaniels, U.S. Army Close Combat Weapon Systems project manager. “The Irish Department of Defence is known for its expertise in selecting the best equipment for its forces regardless of its nation of origin. Ireland’s selection, as well as Javelin’s performance in worldwide combat operations, validates Javelin’s position as the world’s most advanced medium range anti-tank system.â€

“Javelin provides the Irish Defence Forces with a highly effective means of deterrence for its soldiers in front-line peacekeeping missions,†said Michael Crisp, president, Javelin Joint Venture. “Javelin allows a single soldier to defeat all known armored vehicles and also provides pin-point accuracy against a wide variety of alternate targets. The Javelin Joint Venture is proud that Ireland judged Javelin as the best system to meets its operational requirements.â€

“Ireland’s detailed evaluation process included assessments of whole life costs and worldwide supportability. Javelin’s high reliability, worldwide support and very low operational and maintenance costs were key factors in our selection,†said Howard Weaver, Javelin Joint Venture vice president. Raytheon Company provides system engineering management and support for the Javelin Joint Venture and produces the command launch unit, missile guidance electronic unit and system software. Work is performed primarily at Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, Ariz., and at other Raytheon facilities in Texas, Massachusetts and California.

Lockheed Martin provides missile engineering and production support for the Javelin Joint Venture in Orlando, Fla., produces the missile seeker in Ocala, Fla., and performs missile all-up-round assembly in Troy, Ala.

The Javelin medium-range, anti-tank missile system is the world’s first one man-transportable and employable fire-and-forget anti-armor missile system. It saw extensive use by U.S. and allied soldiers, Marines and Special Forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Javelin is approved for international sales through the U.S. Army’s Foreign Military Sales system and is available to meet national requirements for next-generation anti-armor weapon systems.
source
 

Blyekh

New Member
Ireland

Do you have any images of Irish military equipment in UN services or in service or pass armor in Irish Defence force?
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Ireland to buy Javelin

[Admin Edit: Please STOP with useless oneliners....]
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
Ireland, much like New Zealand, has been involved in too many UN peacekeeping missions lately. Currently Ireland has forces in Bosnia, Liberia, and shortly in Lebanon. They have sent UN peacekeepers to Lebanon before. While both nations of 4 million or so citizens can't afford a very large army with tank battalions, their infantry has come up against tanks in their peacekeeping roles. Having an anti-tank capability for their infantry is a must in today's peacekeeping missions, a small number of Javelins anti-tank missiles is more affordable than buying and manning a tank regiment or battalion. In fact, buying a small number of Javelins is cheaper than buying two LAVs.

What some can't comprehend any nation that don't have 10 army divisions, 10 airwings, and 10 aircraft carriers battle groups, many small nations don't even have two. While these small nations participation in UN missions isn't as hefty as the Americans, they are matching nations that have 10 to 20 times their small populations of 4 million.
 
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Big-E

Banned Member
Sea Toby said:
While BIg E cannot comprehend any nation that don't have 10 army divisions, 10 airwings, and 10 aircraft carriers battle groups,

Just answer the question, no need for editorials.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Big-E, please stop with useless one liners and other "loose" comments that take threads "off topic" and into confrontational phase. If you can't ADD anything to the topic there is no need to take anything away with irresponsible comments.

A user asked for irish military pictures, perfectly good request.

Since you are part of the "Defense professionals" group, I ask that you do keep your professional posture and professional attitude. Also, consider this your first and last warning, if I or any other mod have to give this speech again, it will be in the ban thread.

Thank you for understanding and enjoy!
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Thank you ST for the info of Irish deployments. I was trying to get on the IDF site and couldn't get on to find that.

My observations of javelins. It is an impressive weapon. It is an expensive weapon. Reloads for Irelands budget probably won't be an option. Looking back at the NZ deal I imagine Ireland won't be getting more than what, 20 missiles or less? With the support costs that doesn't leave many missiles. Personally I think getting 1 used advanced MBT would be a better investment. Whatever tanks the peacekeepers come across will not be quality tanks. Their javelins will be worth more than the T-34/55 target tank they come across. Getting a surplus Leopard will be more than enough to take out a whole column of enemy tanks, plus she gets reloads on the cheap!
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Big-E said:
Thank you ST for the info of Irish deployments. I was trying to get on the IDF site and couldn't get on to find that.

My observations of javelins. It is an impressive weapon. It is an expensive weapon. Reloads for Irelands budget probably won't be an option. Looking back at the NZ deal I imagine Ireland won't be getting more than what, 20 missiles or less? With the support costs that doesn't leave many missiles. Personally I think getting 1 used advanced MBT would be a better investment. Whatever tanks the peacekeepers come across will not be quality tanks. Their javelins will be worth more than the T-34/55 target tank they come across. Getting a surplus Leopard will be more than enough to take out a whole column of enemy tanks, plus she gets reloads on the cheap!
Sorry Big-E, I think that's a ridiculous argument. They can't afford Javelin re-loads according to you, but can afford to support a single tank and afford to buy ammunition for it???

Also a buy of 10-12 Javelin ATGW's and a quantity of missiles provides some capability for the concurrent deployments they seem to be making at the moment, as a mere 2 launchers provides an ATGW "section".

A single tank does not. In addition to which tracked armoured vehicles are tempermental things. Throw a track and your vehicle is out of action for hours and your force has lost it's solitary direct fire support capability.

Ireland's forces are also designed as a light infantry force in the main, with a Ranger battalion providing Ireland's special operations forces. A tank is not going to be very useful in supporting either their light infantry OR special forces I wouldn't imagine...
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Aussie Digger said:
Sorry Big-E, I think that's a ridiculous argument. They can't afford Javelin re-loads according to you, but can afford to support a single tank and afford to buy ammunition for it???
Perhaps an MBT was a bit optamistic. How about a Rooikat? It's more mobile to keep up with her wheeled vehicles, is cheaper to operate and to maintain yet has a killer main gun.

Aussie Digger said:
Also a buy of 10-12 Javelin ATGW's and a quantity of missiles provides some capability for the concurrent deployments they seem to be making at the moment, as a mere 2 launchers provides an ATGW "section".
The javelin, while great, is not 100% accurate. To leave my unit depending on two missiles would not leave me feeling very confident.

Aussie Digger said:
A single tank does not. In addition to which tracked armoured vehicles are tempermental things. Throw a track and your vehicle is out of action for hours and your force has lost it's solitary direct fire support capability.


Ireland's forces are also designed as a light infantry force in the main, with a Ranger battalion providing Ireland's special operations forces. A tank is not going to be very useful in supporting either their light infantry OR special forces I wouldn't imagine...
I submit and offer the Rooikat for a counter proposal.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Big-E said:
Perhaps an MBT was a bit optamistic. How about a Rooikat? It's more mobile to keep up with her wheeled vehicles, is cheaper to operate and to maintain yet has a killer main gun.

The javelin, while great, is not 100% accurate. To leave my unit depending on two missiles would not leave me feeling very confident.

I submit and offer the Rooikat for a counter proposal.
You've got to think about the sorts of missions Ireland is deploying to. If they want an ATGW it's because they are sending infantry or special forces. Now a Rooikat is more easily deployable and probably more reliable, but it has less anti-armour capability than the Leopard you originally mentioned as it is only equipped with a 76mm gun.

Javelin may not be 100% accurate but neither are main guns on the Rooikat OR Leopard tanks. I never said they would only take 2 missiles, I said 2x launchers can be deployed as a minimal capability. The number of launchers would depend entirely on the size of the force being deployed. If an infantry battalion were to be deployed or a high threat level was expected, then 6x launchers would probably be deployed as most ABCA style Armies use this number to equip their anti-armour/direct fire support weapons platoons.

Either way I think the Javelin provides a lot more flexibility than a wheeled fire support vehicle or a tank for Irelands needs.

Your turn... :rolleyes:
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Big-E said:
I surrender... before I die... 120mm Rooikat :D
Now you want Ireland to absorb the NRE of integrating a 120mm gun onto a single Rooikat!!! They're not made of money you know... :D
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Taking this in a slightly different direction. Isn't work being done on a "dumb" version of the Javelin where the guidance system is removed? To my understanding, there were a number of occasions when a Javelin was used to damage/destroy a hardened target but the "fire & forget" capability wasn't needed. Once the expensive guidance system is removed from the missle, it becomes much less expensive.

Ireland, by purchasing the Javelin system would then have available to it a very good ATGW system. Assuming there is work being done on a "dumb" Javelin, they would be able to use the same launchers to destroy hardened targets on deployments when needed, without spending US$70k-100k on each target.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Aussie Digger said:
Now you want Ireland to absorb the NRE of integrating a 120mm gun onto a single Rooikat!!! They're not made of money you know... :D
Yes they are!

Richest country per head in the EU after Luxembourg, which is 1) tiny (400K people), & 2) GDP per head is hugely distorted by all the people who live over the border (so not counted in the population) & work in Luxembourg.

Not bad, when you remember Ireland had half the GDP per head of the UK in 1960. Started its spectacular advance in the 1980s. English go to Ireland to work now, not the other way round.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Big-E said:
Perhaps an MBT was a bit optamistic. How about a Rooikat? It's more mobile to keep up with her wheeled vehicles, is cheaper to operate and to maintain yet has a killer main gun.

The javelin, while great, is not 100% accurate. To leave my unit depending on two missiles would not leave me feeling very confident.

I submit and offer the Rooikat for a counter proposal.
Centauro would be better. It's more likely to be operated by other members of any force. Support is available much closer to home. It has a bigger gun (105mm with 120mm already integrated as an option). And Rooikat has been out of production for years, IIRC.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
swerve said:
Yes they are!

Richest country per head in the EU after Luxembourg, which is 1) tiny (400K people), & 2) GDP per head is hugely distorted by all the people who live over the border (so not counted in the population) & work in Luxembourg.

Not bad, when you remember Ireland had half the GDP per head of the UK in 1960. Started its spectacular advance in the 1980s. English go to Ireland to work now, not the other way round.
Holy !!!! I knew their GDP had exploded over the past decade, and is now twice that of say NZ, but I had no idea that they had surpassed DK in GDP/cap. 48.600 USD vs 48.000 USD is freaking impressive. It is very much a story of how EU regional development subsidies can really make a difference in a relatively short time. IIRC they don't get that aid and preference anymore...

So yeah, they're made of money!

On topic ;): I think Javelins are a very good choice for an infantry army like the Irish have.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Grand Danois said:
Holy !!!! I knew their GDP had exploded over the past decade, and is now twice that of say NZ, but I had no idea that they had surpassed DK in GDP/cap. 48.600 USD vs 48.000 USD is freaking impressive. It is very much a story of how EU regional development subsidies can really make a difference in a relatively short time. IIRC they don't get that aid and preference anymore...

So yeah, they're made of money!

On topic ;): I think Javelins are a very good choice for an infantry army like the Irish have.
1) Ahead at purchasing power parities even more. The aid has been tailing off as they've got richer, but there's a lag. I think it's only just cut off completely.

2) Agreed.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I also don't understand the criticism about this purchase. The Javelin fits good into light infantry forces as their main AT-weapon.
And as said before during peacekeeping operations some Javelins in your heavy weapons platoons give you some AT-capabilities when needed without having to maintain and and run a small fleet of vehicles which is for sure not cheaper than procuring some more missiles if the old ones are used.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
swerve said:
Yes they are!

Richest country per head in the EU after Luxembourg, which is 1) tiny (400K people), & 2) GDP per head is hugely distorted by all the people who live over the border (so not counted in the population) & work in Luxembourg.

Not bad, when you remember Ireland had half the GDP per head of the UK in 1960. Started its spectacular advance in the 1980s. English go to Ireland to work now, not the other way round.
Alright, well they're not going to integrate a 120mm gun on the Rooivalk or any other wheeled armoured vehicle because they're not very warlike and obviously not interested in developing higher level warfighting capabilities beyond that necessary to equip light infantry and light motorised forces for UN sponsored peace-keeping operations, despite possessing a suitable population, financial and industrial base to do so!!!

There. Happy? :rel
 
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