Submarines

[Awang se]

Let's talk about sub. i mean, anything about subs. not confine to specific type or class, but in general. let me begin first.

I have a chat with my navy friend 2 days ago. he said to me that his ship sonar were able to detect of what he believed to be a collin SSK. It's not quite confirm though. Nothing on broadband, but a sonar operator were lucky enough to stumbled upon a weak signal on the narrowband.just a single Frequency line. not enough for solid ID, though the odd are it could also be a chinese Song (are they operational yet?), But he say's his hunch is on the Aussie. the contact is brief. When the captain order the course change, the sub just dissapear. maybe the sub have already tracking the RMN ship and when the ship change course, they realized that they have been detected and cut the engine

 

[gf0012-aust]

Could be a Song, could be a Kilo, could be a Collins, could even be one of Singapores little littoral scooters...

All sub forces play tag, even against their allies.

Would depend on the location of the contact to try and narrow it down any further.

What led him to believe it was a conventional rig? or an SSK even?

Any sub tooling around near another nations surface combatants would in all likelihood know the anomalies of the area - ie so they would be tooling around as they are familiar with the location. Otherwise its too easy to get picked up and be recorded.

Out of curiosity do you know things like depth, duration of contact, how far was the sub estimated to be from from the surface ship at time of contact, whereabouts was it contacted?

IIRC China has 4 x Songs on station

 

[Awang se]

The contact was brief (my friend say it's about 5 minutes) so there is not enough time for TMA, but base on the bearing, the contact is roughly near the Sarawak coast. The Ship at that time is 12km north of the gap between Borneo and Malay Peninsular on the way to Labuan. they figure out it was a sub because there is no radar contact all the way to the coast. After the contact was detected the OOD gave order for a course change to gain good TMA solution. But as soon as the ship change it's course, the contact began to fade and dissolve to nothing. They figure that the subs already tracking them for quite sometime before they detect the subs. so when the Ship change course, the subs figure out that they have been detected and cut the engine. another theory is the subs could have duck under the thermal layer but that theory was rejected because the waters from the ship all the way down the bearing is to shalow for any layers to formed. They believe it is SSK because there is no indication of pump noise typical to the SSN (The Freq line is on higher freq. they think it is a high pitch motor whining) and also on consideration that no SSN would venture into the shallow waters without necesities.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The contact was brief (my friend say it's about 5 minutes) so there is not enough time for TMA, but base on the bearing, the contact is roughly near the Sarawak coast. The Ship at that time is 12km north of the gap between Borneo and Malay Peninsular on the way to Labuan. they figure out it was a sub because there is no radar contact all the way to the coast. After the contact was detected the OOD gave order for a course change to gain good TMA solution. But as soon as the ship change it's course, the contact began to fade and dissolve to nothing. They figure that the subs already tracking them for quite sometime before they detect the subs. so when the Ship change course, the subs figure out that they have been detected and cut the engine. another theory is the subs could have duck under the thermal layer but that theory was rejected because the waters from the ship all the way down the bearing is to shalow for any layers to formed. They believe it is SSK because there is no indication of pump noise typical to the SSN (The Freq line is on higher freq. they think it is a high pitch motor whining) and also on consideration that no SSN would venture into the shallow waters without necesities.

The fact that it was 12km from the Borneo coast kind of makes me NOT think it was a Collins.

Subs only prowl close to a territorial limit if they:
1) have no fear of detection
2) are very sure that they can control station and not get tidal bumped into domestic waters
3) would rarely place themselves between coast, and contact - especially in shallow littorals. Every submariner knows what the norwegians and swedes did to a russian sub recently.
4) there has to be a strategic need to tool around in that location, ie a shipping asset of interest.

all subs play cat and mouse - even with their own ASW elements. In foreign waters subs do have the capacity of knowing in real time where the surface threats are at any one time. ie the last known positions of likely "hostiles" is updated continuously. eg During the Falklands the Brits had satellite updates showing where the Belgrano was (and confirmed by HUMINT) prior to sinking it. 35 years later the capacity to know where all the likely surface threats is is somewhat greater.

Due to a combination of all of the above, I seriously would doubt that it was a Collins. But that is an uneducated guess.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Um, the Falklands didn't quite happen 35 years ago, only 22 years ago, just to be picky . I don't know that much about subs, but I've heard and read that the collins are extremely capable (even with their obsolete combat system) and have even defeated US Los Angeles class subs in Ex's? Can anyone confirm this?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Um, the Falklands didn't quite happen 35 years ago, only 22 years ago, just to be picky . I don't know that much about subs, but I've heard and read that the collins are extremely capable (even with their obsolete combat system) and have even defeated US Los Angeles class subs in Ex's? Can anyone confirm this?

AG, lol, brainfart on my part, dunno how I got 35 years out of that subtraction.

yep collins have "sunk" a boomer and sunk 3 CVN's in wargames. all recent events. The US rarely admits to these events so it is a biggee for them to admit. it helped contribute to their rethinking of conventional subs.

although the RAN and the RN have also had kills with Oberons in the past as well. But they were universally regarded as the quietest subs in the world, and were used for spec ops jobs now and then as well (RN)

 

[Aussie Digger]

Yeah I think I heard about that during Ex "Tandem Thrust 01" a few years back. I also heard that Aussie F111's notionally 'sank' USS Kitty Hawk during that exercise. Imagine if an incident like that happened for real? The media headlines would be amazing!!!

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hey, what do you know, I've been promoted...

 

[gf0012-aust]

A-Dig, yeah a Pig driver shot a Viper up the freckle a few years back.... bit of a shock for the Viper driver.

The F111 outran him on the deck, turned, went up and then looped to ping him in the clacker.

Nothing like pilot training to beat later technology..

 

[Awang se]

most of our Sonar library came from allies like Aussie and UK. we hope the coming of scorpene would change that.

Do you got any info on scorpene. I ask around and i only got "general" answer. are they a capable platform? I don't have any contact in DCN.

The Sub is quite a mystery to me. not much i know about them. What i know is the SSK is much more quite then the SSN. Is that true?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Scorpene is a very capable little sub. They are not exactly a fleet submarine, but that is not their purpose.

You will always get differing opinions in this, but the general acceptance is that SSK's are quieter than SSKN's.

I know of a trident boomer driver who always said that his sub was quieter than the french equivalents, but he acknowledged that the Oberons, Collins and Kilos were very hard to track. Apparently he had his trident tracked by an Oberon and a Collins (over a few years) and was not impressed by it.

It does depend on where the cat and mouse is happening though.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Yeah GF, I heard about that. It happened during Red Flag a few years ago didn't it? As I read it the F16 pilot wasn't aware Aussie F111's carried Aim -9M Sidewinders on their missions, thus leading to the very embarrassing situation for him (or perhaps her)...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Yeah GF, I heard about that. It happened during Red Flag a few years ago didn't it? As I read it the F16 pilot wasn't aware Aussie F111's carried Aim -9M Sidewinders on their missions, thus leading to the very embarrassing situation for him (or perhaps her)...

the Viper driver was very embarassed apparently...

anyway, back to the sub hunt... any more info on that Awang se?

 

[Awang se]

From what i heard, the Scorpene is not really "little" though their endurance might make them a coastal type sub. But the coming of the AIP make them an almost true hunter killer platform rivalling the SSN. the AIP increase the sub underwater speed and range several folds. there is several other Sub of the same class and capabilities (Agosta 90B, Oberon, Kilo, Gotland. Sorry, i don't know where the Collins stands).

About the Contact on sarawak coast. My friend is already on the sea right now so i can't get the info anytime soon. Apparently Brunei send one of their CN-235 by M'sian request to the area in hope of visual findings. Don't know the result. Anyway we always acquire a Chinese subs along the spratly's. most of them are a vintage Ming. Twin screws, noisy as hell. I don't know why chinese still keep this piece of scrap. If the contact is confirm as a sub contact, this will be the closest ever penetration into the coast ever detected. The lack of info on the contact make the government quite reluctant to release this finding. If they claim they find a sub and it turn out to be an anomaly generated by the coastal industrial activities, this one will be embarassing.

I made a mistake applying for the Army. i should've applied for the Navy. Then maybe i could request to join the newly form sub forces.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The thing about a noisy sub though is that it still is a useful data collector.

Lets assume that you have a new ASW ship in your navy, the "orange force" decides to get their noise/signature database updated.

They send out two subs, a noisey Ming and a quiet Han.

The Ming makes noises, you send out your ASW vessel to investigate and the Han (which is running silent) gets a "free" database upgrade, gets to test your response times and if they want to, the "orange units" can alternate between each other to have your ASW ship running around with all its electronic gear broadcasting... They also get to find out what works when hiding from your ASW units.

They've just got what they wanted.

 

[Awang se]

Is it more usefull to place a quite sub close to the entrance to the naval base if they want to acquire signature? if the new unknown contact detected, then they can contact HQ and then they could steer one of the satellite to gain visual confirmation.

About Han, are they really capable? i heard they suffer from high internal radiation sometimes ago. What gives?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Is it more usefull to place a quite sub close to the entrance to the naval base if they want to acquire signature? if the new unknown contact detected, then they can contact HQ and then they could steer one of the satellite to gain visual confirmation.

About Han, are they really capable? i heard they suffer from high internal radiation sometimes ago. What gives?

I was using the 2 types of subs as an example of what could be done, not necessarily what subs they were using.

As for being close to a naval port, such an act would result in a merciless response from the indigenous ASW elements. - much like what the swedes did when they found a sub in their harbour a few years back. The "orange" clearly would be in national waters and could be sunk without question if the govt decided to.

re satellites, it takes too long to redirect a satellite, hence why the US built aircraft like the SR-71 as it gave "immediate" results (relatively)

 

[Awang se]

Can anyone do that? i mean sunk foreign sub in national waters during peacetime? I thought they only lashing it continuosly with the active sonar until the sub just leave. The sub itself cost dearly, not to mention when you throw in all the torps and missiles and the crew. The Sub owner will be furios and will demand compensation for the lost sub. It's to risky.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can anyone do that? i mean sunk foreign sub in national waters during peacetime? I thought they only lashing it continuosly with the active sonar until the sub just leave. The sub itself cost dearly, not to mention when you throw in all the torps and missiles and the crew. The Sub owner will be furios and will demand compensation for the lost sub. It's to risky.

that sub was convergently lashed over a period of days enabling it to be able to come up, then attacked. the fact that it was avoiding surfacing, that it was within national borders (withing a secure bay area) made it legitimate. The sub owner has no rights when they clearly have breeched sovereignty. It was a swedish response as well not a norwegian (have corrected prev thread)

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hey Gf, moving on from the F-111 thread into Subs. Could the Collins be fitted with Tomahawk without effecting it's current warload? Ie: some sort of vertical launching pod behind the conning tower or some such?