US soldier killing iraqi and cheering

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Gremlin29

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That's an old clip that's been argued over on this board already. Notice that you are catching an edited snippet from a bigger story and therefore the event is hardly worth arguing about because there is no background to the clip. This was obviously an armed combatant (notice the rifle laying in front of him?) and he does not appear to be trying to surrender. Under these conditions the Marines were quite correct in firing on him. When an individual fires on a Marine, they should fully expect to be killed. Anyway, the source website is just an anti US propaganda site rather than some objective credible news agency so I would take anything written there as nothing more than what it is, propaganda.
 

suleman

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Yes thats what u will say.Who ever say anything against US then its anti us propaganda.How can one surrender to marines when he is wounded and unable to stand even.They cud have captured him easily.Have u heard what soldier say.Now learn to analyze things on marit and on nutral grounds.
 

Gremlin29

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It's propaganda when they don't divulge the entire story such as in this case. I can think of quite a few scenarios in this situation in which the Marines were more than justified in their actions. Since the propaganda site that posted this clip conveniently decided to omit this fact that's what I'm left to do.
 

dabrownguy

New Member
...O K. The solideirs killed an Iraqi. Iraqi teens kill wounded American solideirs in jeep! Both sides are gonna shoot wounded people either by accident or porposlly, but American will do less innocent killed than the Iraqi who shoot every one trying to kill a few dumb American soliders!
 

Winter

New Member
Hmm...After examining the clip, I see it seems to have been unnaturally cut and edited in places to the effect of maximising the Marines' brutality and demonizing the situation...This could actually be the work of the CNN clip...However I believe it is the site that has in fact, altered the original. For example, this is clearly shown with each cut advancing the scrolling news located at the bottom of the screen by some degree each and every time. Like Gremlin29 said, the source website's foundings are rather debatable and not those of an 'objective credible news agency.' The twisting of this neutral clip to the website's view (in implication) may quite possibly prove it and automatically lowers the validity of what is being presented. You decide.

CWO2 Bryan M Simon, USMC:
I cannot believe you want us to believe that the video you show of the US Marines killing that man is anything but a propaganda issue? Why didn't you include the part where this character was laying in ambush for the Marine patrol to wlak by? Why didn't you show the part where he is rigging an improvised explosive device to go off the next convoy that drives by it?
The replies on page to this clip make interesting reading (such as the one above) although I do wonder how all these 'servicemen' bothered coming across it....
 

Soldier

New Member
Gremlin29 said:
It's propaganda when they don't divulge the entire story such as in this case. I can think of quite a few scenarios in this situation in which the Marines were more than justified in their actions. Since the propaganda site that posted this clip conveniently decided to omit this fact that's what I'm left to do.
The rule of engagement is: Once a soldier (though he may have been a civilian) is out of fight i.e by getting injured and not able to fight back or is on ground, the opposition is supposed to give medical treatment. Here no matter even if that so called Iraqi soldier was on the groundd laying injured clearly not able to fight back and US Marines killing him by shooting on his back from such a long distance only shows how trigger happy American Marines are. I wonder why americans cried when they saw their dead soldier being dragged on the roads of Somalia? No matter what americans may want to explain the fact is, that Iraqi on the ground was shot on his back and the cheered faces of American marines only showed their happiness about killing whom so ever comes in their way. American soldiers at no time have shown their sentimental strength when it came to fighting a war with a equally powerful opposition. Only when they are numerically and technologically superior do they show how brave and kind they are.
 

Winter

New Member
Soldier said:
The rule of engagement is: Once a soldier (though he may have been a civilian) is out of fight i.e by getting injured and not able to fight back or is on ground, the opposition is supposed to give medical treatment. Here no matter even if that so called Iraqi soldier was on the groundd laying injured clearly not able to fight back and US Marines killing him by shooting on his back from such a long distance only shows how trigger happy American Marines are. I wonder why americans cried when they saw their dead soldier being dragged on the roads of Somalia? No matter what americans may want to explain the fact is, that Iraqi on the ground was shot on his back and the cheered faces of American marines only showed their happiness about killing whom so ever comes in their way. American soldiers at no time have shown their sentimental strength when it came to fighting a war with a equally powerful opposition. Only when they are numerically and technologically superior do they show how brave and kind they are.
I do understand your point...Though Americans cried when dead US soldiers were dragged through the streets in Somalia because they were mourning their loss of lives in a totally unrelated combat incident over a decade ago...

A display of sentimental strength upon fighting a war against equal opposition...You mean World War II? Well, I guess at the end of the day, it was the Nazis that set the example on human rights.

The US was not numerically superior in the Iraq War and they are practically and generally technologically superior to any combat force fielding now through their own making as a democratic power, not an evil curse that inadvertantly chose them and brought great strength and related...

:frosty
 

Gremlin29

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Soldier, what rule of engagement are you talking about, exactly?

I've been a soldier for 15 years and know quite a bit about ROE. Just so there's NO misunderstanding the OFFICIAL ROE prior to January 1, 2004 (don't know if it's changed since December) is to fire upon AND neutralize ANY civilian carrying a WEAPON of any kind, period. You do understand that Marines and Soldiers are trained to kill? You shoot at me, I will shoot back until you are dead, that's simply the way it is. Do you know how many Marines this man wounded/killed? Could be the reason they are cheering? If Americans killed whomever crossed their path Iraq would be the worlds biggest parking lot.

As for your bravery and kindness comment I have to supress a laugh. I wont even comment further because that statement is so ignorant it doesn't warrant a response. Somebody needs to spend some time in the library.
 

Winter

New Member
elkaboingo said:
anyone know where we can see the original?
You mean direct CNN? Probably not...CNN has a 24/7 news feed, I doubt all footage at any time is available for internet usage...Though Not for me to answer...Anyone else?
 

Soldier

New Member
Gremlin29 said:
Soldier, what rule of engagement are you talking about, exactly?

I've been a soldier for 15 years and know quite a bit about ROE. Just so there's NO misunderstanding the OFFICIAL ROE prior to January 1, 2004 (don't know if it's changed since December) is to fire upon AND neutralize ANY civilian carrying a WEAPON of any kind, period.

Neutralize does not mean killing cold-blooded on the back. Perhaps that is American way of describing neutralizing. Upon that Cheers, another american symbol of love'em all or kick'em all. I guess US Forces could take some training from British soldiers present in Iraq, who at least tried to win hearts of Iraqi's by trying to mix up with them.

You do understand that Marines and Soldiers are trained to kill?

Every soldier is trained to kill. That theory is not practical only in case of US.

>You shoot at me, I will shoot back until you are dead, that's simply the way it is.

If you shoot at me, I will kill by shooting you. right, but what if you do not shoot at me and you are laying defenceless, without any firearm in your hands, clearly not able to do anything? And yes, do not bull me by saying what American ROE said, since Americans were the first one to cry when Al-Jazeera showed the photographs of captured American soldiers being interviewed by Iraqi's. But later when Iraqi's were defeated, americans did not feel a single bit of shame to show them on the TV.

>Do you know how many Marines this man wounded/killed?

Wish, everyone would have known.....

>Could be the reason they are cheering?

Well perhaps, then why so hue and cry when dead american soldiers were dragged on the roads by somalis?

>If Americans killed whomever crossed their path Iraq would be the worlds biggest parking lot.

Also for americans. Every mis-adventure in blindness of technological superiority gives birth to people who are ready to blow back. Guess this is why Americans are afraid to travel to Asia or Europe since Iraq war. For them world is canada, mexico & US......right?

>As for your bravery and kindness comment I have to supress a laugh. I wont even comment further because that statement is so ignorant it doesn't warrant a response. Somebody needs to spend some time in the library...


Sounds like that. When there is no clear explanation or answer, you can always hide or act as an ostrich. But nothing changes the fact.
Neautralize does not mean sure-shot killing.. it means making a person helpless and in the video, that person was clearly helpless. So do not try to change the facts.
regards
 

Winter

New Member
Soldier said:
Gremlin29 said:
Soldier, what rule of engagement are you talking about, exactly?

I've been a soldier for 15 years and know quite a bit about ROE. Just so there's NO misunderstanding the OFFICIAL ROE prior to January 1, 2004 (don't know if it's changed since December) is to fire upon AND neutralize ANY civilian carrying a WEAPON of any kind, period.

Neutralize does not mean killing cold-blooded on the back. Perhaps that is American way of describing neutralizing. Upon that Cheers, another american symbol of love'em all or kick'em all. I guess US Forces could take some training from British soldiers present in Iraq, who at least tried to win hearts of Iraqi's by trying to mix up with them.

You do understand that Marines and Soldiers are trained to kill?
Every soldier is trained to kill. That theory is not practical only in case of US.
Unfortunately I think he was being sarcastic... :roll

Soldier said:
Gremlin29 said:
>You shoot at me, I will shoot back until you are dead, that's simply the way it is.
If you shoot at me, I will kill by shooting you. right, but what if you do not shoot at me and you are laying defenceless, without any firearm in your hands, clearly not able to do anything? And yes, do not bull me by saying what American ROE said, since Americans were the first one to cry when Al-Jazeera showed the photographs of captured American soldiers being interviewed by Iraqi's. But later when Iraqi's were defeated, americans did not feel a single bit of shame to show them on the TV.
I understand what you are saying though I believe there is a certain element of patriotism involved...I'm afraid you can't expect all Americans to sympathise seeing their captured soldiers by the enemy and transferring that equally onto enemies successfully captured by their forces. Regardless, I doubt there were any breaches of the Geneva Convention here and to a certain extent, that's all that matters...Of course, I cannot comfirm that.

Soldier said:
Gremlin29 said:
>Do you know how many Marines this man wounded/killed?
Wish, everyone would have known.....
The CNN report was edited by the website as to remove such information.

Soldier said:
Gremlin29 said:
>Could be the reason they are cheering?
Well perhaps, then why so hue and cry when dead american soldiers were dragged on the roads by somalis?
Once again patriotism and emotions...Americans did not like their soldiers being brutally dragged through the streets. Simple. Perhaps the example is inappropiate anyway...I'm sure if US troops did the same in Iraq then many, many people would come down like a ton of bricks...Including the US military itself. Perish the thought.

Soldier said:
Gremlin29 said:
>If Americans killed whomever crossed their path Iraq would be the worlds biggest parking lot.
Also for americans. Every mis-adventure in blindness of technological superiority gives birth to people who are ready to blow back. Guess this is why Americans are afraid to travel to Asia or Europe since Iraq war. For them world is canada, mexico & US......right?
That is an especially unfair comment putting down an entire people...Did you actually research that comment?...Only the other day I dined with an American couple touring the country.

Soldier said:
Gremlin29 said:
>As for your bravery and kindness comment I have to supress a laugh. I wont even comment further because that statement is so ignorant it doesn't warrant a response. Somebody needs to spend some time in the library...
Sounds like that. When there is no clear explanation or answer, you can always hide or act as an ostrich. But nothing changes the fact.
Neautralize does not mean sure-shot killing.. it means making a person helpless and in the video, that person was clearly helpless. So do not try to change the facts.
regards
I'm afraid as pointed out, we cannot draw judgements and conclusions from that video as it has been edited and changed and presented from a biased website...It certainly is not BBC News nor it's source CNN.

I truely am displeased at this incident's implication, however the source and footage is wholly unreliable and it is certainly not cause to start insulting all Americans worldwide.

:frosty
 

Gremlin29

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You are correct, for Americans neutralizing the enemy means killing them. The individual in this clip made the choices that he made and that's why he was where he was and ended up dead. He decided to take up arms against the Marines, did he think they were Not going to kill him? Were this a civilian I would be completely appauled but it's not.

As far as soldiers killing not being practical, well that's what they are trained to do, that's why they are called Soldiers and not Policemen. Perhaps in your country the military doesn't kill amred bandits that shoot at them?

I do agree that it is in poor taste to show POW's of any nationallity on TV.

Well perhaps, then why so hue and cry when dead american soldiers were dragged on the roads by somalis?
Somalia has nothing to do with Iraq, and your statement makes no sense at all.

Also for americans. Every mis-adventure in blindness of technological superiority gives birth to people who are ready to blow back. Guess this is why Americans are afraid to travel to Asia or Europe since Iraq war. For them world is canada, mexico & US......right?
Really? Interesting to say the least. I'm going to the UK and France in June, and I'm not the least bit worried. Americans are envied by many, and therefore loathed as well. Iraq hasn't changed this one way or the other.

And yeah the bravery comment you made is indeed ignorant, to say the least and shows how very little you actually know about Bravery, the Military and fighting wars.

And you never answered my question, what ROE were you talking about? Or was this just your opinion?
 

Gremlin29

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And thanks Winter, a good even handed response. I appologize if I seem a bit out of line but these anti-American types drive me crazy.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Ya'all quit flogging the dead horse now!
Gremlin ,Soldiers comments do not reek of anti-Americanism.Buddy just think when I heard about how u'r guys' bodies were degraded in Somalia,I as a general human felt u know sad at this conduct of the Somalis.Similarly Soldier here(he's Indian) must have felt the same way on seeing this clip and the rest is but natural.
 

Soldier

New Member
Gremlin29 said:
You are correct, for Americans neutralizing the enemy means killing them. The individual in this clip made the choices that he made and that's why he was where he was and ended up dead.

You can not throw up by saying that Iraqi was there. At first place Marines did not have any business to be in Iraq. He was helpless and instead of getting any medical attention, all he got was another bullet from some stupid trigger-happy marines.

> He decided to take up arms against the Marines, did he think they were Not going to kill him? Were this a civilian I would be completely appauled but it's not.

And how do you know that? Unless you have seen a complete film, I will agree with you, but talking about the only clip available, it does not show any bravery of Marines.

>As far as soldiers killing not being practical, well that's what they are trained to do, that's why they are called Soldiers and not Policemen. Perhaps in your country the military doesn't kill amred bandits that shoot at them?

Not in my country and not even in any other civilized nation where human life and sentimental bond is considered of any good value. India is full of problems when it comes to terrorism. Pakistan has problems in its northwest frontiers. But nowhere do they go and shoot or blast the whole area. They try to take out only the opposition soldier and once injured, what better then to take him as a prisoner? Killing a already disabled person is more of a crime then a simple shooting. And I wonder how do you justify that when you stop thinking like an american but a human being.

>I do agree that it is in poor taste to show POW's of any nationallity on TV.

Still American Media did it.

Well perhaps, then why so hue and cry when dead american soldiers were dragged on the roads by somalis?
Somalia has nothing to do with Iraq, and your statement makes no sense at all.

It has to do with ethics, wherever in the world there is a war.

>Really? Interesting to say the least. I'm going to the UK and France in June, and I'm not the least bit worried. Americans are envied by many, and therefore loathed as well. Iraq hasn't changed this one way or the other.

It has fueled more opposition for US regardless.

>And yeah the bravery comment you made is indeed ignorant, to say the least and shows how very little you actually know about Bravery, the Military and fighting wars.

I know about being a human and sticking to the ethics of humans and not animals.
 

Soldier

New Member
Gremlin29 said:
And thanks Winter, a good even handed response. I appologize if I seem a bit out of line but these anti-American types drive me crazy.
I am no anti-American type. But I am very much against policies of US Politicians. People of any country are treated according to the policies of their governments. If policies of Government are going to harm the citizens of the country, so be it. Just because I said things against marines killing a disabled human, you labeled me anti-american, just like the propaganda played by current US Government. If you agree, you are patriotic and if you don't, you are unpatriotic. So much for so-called American democracy. :roll
 

Soldier

New Member
umair said:
Ya'all quit flogging the dead horse now!
Gremlin ,Soldiers comments do not reek of anti-Americanism.Buddy just think when I heard about how u'r guys' bodies were degraded in Somalia,I as a general human felt u know sad at this conduct of the Somalis.Similarly Soldier here(he's Indian) must have felt the same way on seeing this clip and the rest is but natural.
You are right Umair. None wants to see a disabled helpless human shot on his back. How does it make human different from predating animals? CNN or for that matter, everyone knows how patriotic american media is and how they have gained expertise in turning molding the lies into eternal truth. What I am wondering is, that why didn't CNN showed the clip on Televisions in US? Obviously someone leaked it on to the website.
 
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