Review of Israel's nuclear deterrent

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Indus

New Member
Janes Defence Weekly, Mar. 4, 2004

JID specialist reviews Israel's nuclear deterrent

The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in the Middle East has been driven by Israel's possession of nuclear weapons. Its vulnerable position within an overwhelmingly hostile region led it to develop a vast array of technologically advanced weapons systems to bolster its security against a wide range of threats, including the threat that Iraq would launch chemical weapons during the 1991 Gulf War and, more recently, Iran's nuclear aspirations and medium-range missile capability.

Of course, Israel has not openly declared itself to be a nuclear power, preferring to maintain a policy of 'nuclear ambiguity' that is considered to provide a level of deterrence against would-be aggressors. However, satellite images have to a great extent ended the operational and technical uncertainties that underlined the covert status of Israel's nuclear weapons programme.

At present, Israel is believed to have at least 200 nuclear weapons - possibly more than the UK - including thermonuclear weapons. Its intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM) systems are capable of reaching most Arab countries and include 50 Jericho-2 missiles with 1,500km range and 1,000kg payload. It also includes around 50 Jericho-1 missiles, which have a 500km range and a 500kg payload. The Jericho-3 programme, which is currently under development, will produce missiles with a range up to 4,800km and 1,000kg payload. Nuclear weapons could also be delivered by F-4E Phantoms, Kfir-C2s, F-l5s or A-4 Skyhawks.

The Israeli nuclear programme, which began almost as soon as Israel became a nation-state in 1948, is centred on the 150MW heavy-water reactor and plutonium reprocessing facility at Dimona, which are not under IAEA safeguards, and an IRR-1 5MW research reactor at Soreq, which is safeguarded. In 1986, 60 photographs of activities in the Dimona facility, taken by Mordechai Vanunu, an Israeli nuclear technician who had been dismissed, were published in the UK's Sunday Times. His information remains the most specific and detailed information to be made public about the Israeli nuclear weapons programme.

Vanunu's photographs covered almost all areas of Dimona's Machon 2 facility, revealing plutonium production, plutonium spheres used in nuclear warheads and bomb component fabrication. This information also revealed Israel's possession of over 200 bombs with boosted devices; neutron bombs; F-16-deliverable warheads and Jericho warheads. Vanunu's release from prison - possibly this April - may result in further revelations.

The continued focus on WMD proliferation may have unintentionally brought Israel's own capabilities to Washington's attention. Israel is never mentioned in the six-monthly reports the US Congress requires the intelligence agencies to prepare on the acquisition of WMD by foreign countries. The National Air and Space Intelligence Center lists 18 nations with missiles, with Israel noticeable by its absence from the list. The USA, which is Israel's main foreign ally and aid donor, seeks to prevent 'rogue states' from seeking WMD while tolerating their possession by states deemed responsible.

LINK--> http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jid/jid040304_1_n.shtml
 

adil

New Member
israel didnt say it knew iraq didnt have WMD's probably because they thought that the US would get rid of a potential enemy if the WMD claims continued, or they didnt speak out because they didnt know whether iraq had them or not, which i doubt :idea2
 

mysterious

New Member
War in Iraq, is just to make Israel more safer and make it economically and politically more stronger in the region! The first thing after major fighting stopped in Iraq that was done, was to safeguard the oil facilities and open up the oil pipeline to Israel which had been shut-off by Saddam Hussain!!! And of course there wont be any mention of Israel in US reports about countries willing to acquire WMDs or those who already have it and stuff because both the US and Israel want the matter to be kept out of discussion indefinitely and tend to sideline the topic whenever it comes up!
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Should Israel perhaps have manufactured Chemical or Biological weapons as a strategic counter to Arabic countries who developed such weapons? Is that the argument on this board? I'm confused. No-one here is acting in outrage that Countries in this region developed Chemical and Biological weapons and ACTUALLY used them against each other and their own people, yet they are acting outrage against Israel for developing a strategic deterrence to this. (Which btw may actually have been responsible for preventing major wars between Israel and Middle Eastern Countries since they've had them, though regrettably not between Israel and Palestine, but I noticed no-one else has raised that point...) Isn't that just a bit hypocritical? Other Middle Eastern Countries have had nuclear weapons development programs for years, Israel knows this and in fact bombed a nuclear reactor that was doing this in the early 80's, in Iraq. Is it unreasonable to develop weapons to protect yourself when your neighbours are doing the same thing, even if they are WMD? If so, India and Pakistan are behaving most unreasonably then.
 

mysterious

New Member
Aussie man, I can just sit back and smile at how lightly you take this issue. India and Pakistan is a totally different scenario than Middle East. Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear facility in the 1980s when Iraq wanted to counter Israeli nukes (Israel already have made WMDs my friend)!! How is Israel preventing itself and the region from a major war by keeping WMDs?? Its fuelling more and more anger around the Arab world and driving them towards achieving nuclear capability themselves to counter the Israeli threat!!! Pakistan has always been smaller than India but it never developed or started developing nukes until India did (India was always kept at bay except 1971 by Pakistan's conventional forces). Why should Israel then have nukes if no one else in the region has them?? Israel already has a great conventional edge over all of the Arab forces in the region, there's no need for WMDs. The US has nicely kept a cap over the technological advancement of Arab conventional forces and so Israel is already superior by far in that area. The WMD case goes right in the trash can my friend!! :smokingc:
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Israelis have nukes because some of the Muslim countries deny that it has the right to exist. Now even the UN (which some people love to quote as a supporting paragon of virtue) accept that Israel as a State has the right to exist.

Whilst nations and individuals persist in the notion of eliminating the Jewish state, then I guess they accept the consequences and outcomes of such wishful thinking.

Are you aware of how many nations deny the right of the Nation of Israel to exist?

How about if India or China or Russia suddenly said that Pakistan had no right to exist as a separate country due to its religious construction. Everyone (and I mean everyone) would be screaming from the tops of the mountaintops about the right to bear arms and protect the nation state.

Unlike poor old Taiwan, Israel is recognised as a legal entity, so when a nation has more than sufficient evidence (theres a few historical battles to bear witness to), then the nation state protects itself. If someone denied the right of my country to exist, I'd sure as hell be making sure that they were go ing to pay a savage price for trying to take it from me - especially if I'd already been attacked a few times, and from all sides.

If you think that none of those arabic states that deny the right of Israel to exist would not invade them if nukes didn't exist - then you're incredibly naive - or are you just anti-semitic enough to not care about that?

I always get the feeling that your distaste for the Jews reaches to the notion of their elimination as an obligatory and acceptable action.


The US has nicely kept a cap over the technological advancement of Arab conventional forces and so Israel is already superior by far in that area.
How is that possible? The russians were principle allies of the main protagonists in 4 of the 5 wars - they could have provided them with nukes if they saw fit - and they didn't trust their clients either. As for WMD in the region, its interesting to note that the only two countries exchanging them were the Iraqis and Iranians.

To argue that the US capped Arab development when they had no influence over what were substantially russian proxies is laughable if you weren't so serious about it.

5-6 million jews against how many?? do the math.

btw, the Israeli technology was French based - the US wouldn't provide the technology.
 

mysterious

New Member
Gf, you sometimes sound like someone desparately trying to shove down his views in to others' minds. I dont deny the fact that up til the 1980s, all the Arab states had the attitude that Israel didnt have a right to exist but that 'has' changed if you notice the statements coming out of the Arab states and their actions over the past decade or so. Now the attitude is more like, "Ok you have a right to exist but you better not shove your aggressiveness on to us and as long as you are willing to get out of Palestinian lands, no one has anything else against you". For me, that is more than enough to say that the Arabs are no more interested in erasing Israel from the world map, they are now only interested in the creation of the Palestinian state which is the main friction point between Israel and the Arabs. It is true that the Dimona nuclear facility was built by French helping hand but after that, substantial US help has been there for Israelis to develop state-of-the-art nukes (plus there were some reports even that US nuclear know-how was imparted to Israeli counter-parts). 3-5 Million Israelis all have a requirement of going through voluntary military service my friend, they all know how to fight! And you saying 5-6 million against how many? implies that you are yourself ignoring the fact that numbers dont really count, a rule that you have yourself been teaching on this forum since God knows when! Israel never got erased from the world map in its previous wars with the Arabs (with no nuke use) then how can you say it will get erased today when it has thrice the techonological advancement and military professionalism in its armed forces?? I think its about time you stopped supporting Israeli WMD stockpiles blindly. :smokingc:
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
mysterious said:
Gf, you sometimes sound like someone desparately trying to shove down his views in to others' minds. I dont deny the fact that up til the 1980s, all the Arab states had the attitude that Israel didnt have a right to exist but that 'has' changed if you notice the statements coming out of the Arab states and their actions over the past decade or so. Now the attitude is more like, "Ok you have a right to exist but you better not shove your aggressiveness on to us and as long as you are willing to get out of Palestinian lands, no one has anything else against you". For me, that is more than enough to say that the Arabs are no more interested in erasing Israel from the world map, they are now only interested in the creation of the Palestinian state which is the main friction point between Israel and the Arabs. It is true that the Dimona nuclear facility was built by French helping hand but after that, substantial US help has been there for Israelis to develop state-of-the-art nukes (plus there were some reports even that US nuclear know-how was imparted to Israeli counter-parts). 3-5 Million Israelis all have a requirement of going through voluntary military service my friend, they all know how to fight! And you saying 5-6 million against how many? implies that you are yourself ignoring the fact that numbers dont really count, a rule that you have yourself been teaching on this forum since God knows when! Israel never got erased from the world map in its previous wars with the Arabs (with no nuke use) then how can you say it will get erased today when it has thrice the techonological advancement and military professionalism in its armed forces?? I think its about time you stopped supporting Israeli WMD stockpiles blindly. :smokingc:
Where has the US provided Israel nuclear technology?
What is Syrias and Irans view of Israels status?
6 million was quoted as eugneics doesn't recognise the difference between those who bear arms - and those who don't
Israels military professionalism is the very thing that protects it - military logic 101 says that.
Israels willingness to pay the ultimate price in protecting its existence is also the reason why it still exists. (strangely, thats the same logic that terrorists - and for some "heroes" display as well.)
I don't support Israels WMD blindly - but I sure do support its right to exist and respond with extreme prejudice against any nation that would seek to erase it or push it further west. The IDF makes its soldiers visit Masada for a very good reason. The sentiment involved is exactly the same virtues that you see imbued with some Muslims - whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Unlike you, I don't malign the media of any particular section of the world just to reinforce a point. I don't malign particular races and or religions and I don't load my responses with sarcasm to appear to be humerous or clever.

Trying to appear wise and innocent is not a glove that fits you well.

As I have said before, your reaction to the jews and to the west in general (especially if you perceive them to be supportive of Israel) is completely different Muslims that I interact with daily. I see little reason to just see you as harmless and young and exuberant - your anger and your hate has yet to be moderated to an extent that gives me comfort that you are just venting.

And that to me is just as dangerous as a fundamentalist Hasidic Jew who would nuke all arabs tomorrow just because they perceive all arabs automatically as the "enemy"

Those who seek to justify their behaviour through faith disrespect it. I am able to have balanced discussions with others on here, so your feeble pronouncement about my quest to "shove my views" down other peoples throats says more about your sensitivity than a capacity to indulge in logical constructive engagement
 

mysterious

New Member
My hatred that you sense is more towards policies of states rather than its people in general Mr. SmartAlec! I have friends here that are American, Israeli, British, Aussies, etc and I know that they're not responsible for anything that their government and its policy does to others around them. Perhaps you need to step out of your nutshell of your preconceived notion of me and open your eyes to what I actually try to say in my posts and not what you think I'm saying. I have been noticing since quite a while that no matter how much I try and explain what I meant in my posts, you keep on believing what you want to about what I said.

And why would you malign media or speak out against it? Are you Muslim? Are you being propagandized against in the west? Is your religion or race being portrayed time and again as violence promotive? Its all easy to sit and talk when you're an outsider to something. Its those who are being talked about and being maligned with terrorists who feel the crunch. I dont know what 'kind' of Muslims you interact with daily who dont feel even a bit outraged to what is being done to their brothers and sisters, and their religion and race in general. I have my eyes filled with tears when I see Israeli army's bullets through Palestinian childrens' skulls that they dont show you on CNN or any other B.S. filled western media outlet (these are the same ones who would jump up at even a slight wound on some Israeli's leg by a Palestinian stone)!! I feel outraged when no-body takes a moment to keep silent over thousands of Iraqis who have died but everyone starts having 'moments of silence' over 200 Spanish that died recently!! Why this bias? What else we Muslims in general will feel when you people show such biased acts? It all comes down to the same thing I said, its easier to sit and talk specially cuz you're an Australian (you dont have any problems facing your race, your culture with some other culture/trend being shoved in your face).

Hell! I say that Israel has a right to existence because they are a distinct people and culture who have a God given right to exist as a nation but I dont support Israeli policies of doing the same to Palestinians what they dont want for themselves! That is not acceptable under any circumstance! The problem with such policies of Israel and US today is that instead of their policies being based on "live and let live", they are more based on "live but dont let live"!!! And you just said yourself that Israel's military professionalism is the very reaons why it exists today, then why have WMDs?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
thats good mysterious, I notice you don't express any remorse or sadness for jewish children blown up on school buses....

distress is universal - not race, religion or gender specific...

I'm glad that you can at least comprehend suffering. As for me, I've seen the effects of bombs going off - and I have no time for those who place them in the name of whatever ideology they come from.

A nail bomb going off in a school bus leaves a rather indelible impression.

Thanks for the attempt at a life lesson, but I'm not sure you're qualifed to teach me yet.

My colours have been hoisted long ago, I also don't go around labelling specific races or religions under a stereotype - lucky for me I have met Muslims who are a little more dignified and balanced and seek to educate without the vitriol that is often part of your communications toolbox. I'm forever being told that the exuberance of youth should be taken into consideration - but that only goes so far.

As for a smart alec? my goodness have you ever read some of your responses? are you for real?

Don't feign indignation when you are far from being a symbol of virtuosity.
 

mysterious

New Member
I'm not claiming anything for myself; may that be a symbol of virtousity or something else. And of course it is sad to see Jewish children and civilians being targetted my militants but what I was trying to say was that the western media behaves in a way so as to portray as some lives being more precious and worthwhile of remorse than others (see! you always miss the point I'm trying to discuss). And most probably the vitriol you sense in my posts is the result of what I see happening to people of my religion due to policies of some countries. I had dreams of going to the US and experiencing the high-fi lifestyle and its culture, taking advantage of the endless opportunities there and stuff like that but today after seeing all that is being done by that country's rulers, I can proudly say I have no desire whatsoever of visiting that country ever! There's a reason behind everything and if you feel I have a hatred or attitude problem towards certain countries' policies or whatever, that is triggered by reasons and in this case, they are those policies themselves! I didnt just grow up and found written on a holy rock to hate Israel or US (or the West), things that happen around oneself and what one sees and experiences shape one's views. Well about stereotyping, I'm totally against that and I try my best to stay away from doing that myself but yes, I'm only a normal human being, getting sometimes over-powered by emotions and so I get a bit carried away. I still have much to learn and quite far to go, so I'm sure I'd be over-coming some weaknesses that I have, in time. :smokingc:
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I don't take this situation too lightly. You take it too seriously. Israel has never used or threatened to use nuclear weapons (directly) against any other nation. If nations around you are building WMD's and have ongoing nuclear weapons development plans (as Iran has openly admitted) then it's simply foolish to think that Israel shouldn't possess them. Iraq HAD a nuclear weapons program and Israel severly delayed this by destroying their reactor Osiriak in 1981 3 years prior to Israel gaining a Nuclear capability. Iran also was worried and tried to destroy this reactor during the Iran-Iraq war, but you don't seem very concerned about the threat posed to Arab countries by other countries possessing WMD's, only Israel. THAT is why you're being hypocritical. Israel has never used it WMD's against any other country, let alone an Arab Country, they present a latent threat only. Other Arabic countries have, yet you don't seem to care about this. I cannot believe Islam doesn't have a problem with Muslims using Mustard Gas against other Muslims!!! Israel may have a conventional edge over most armies in the region, but then those armies have never attacked Israel individually. Consider if your hatred allows you, Israel is in a terrible strategic position. It cannot lose a war, it has nowhere to go. It is surrounded on all sides (geographically speaking) by declared enemies, who have attacked them on numerous occassions in the past. ANY other country in similar circumstances would do the exactly the same. Don't show your ignorance by trying to deny this.
 

mysterious

New Member
Well, instead of professing your blind love for Israeli WMDs and its right to possess them while being opposed to Iraq or Iran having them; I'd suggest you take a inch of fresh air and try to think as to 'why' Iraq and Iran embarked on a WMD program!! It was due to the 'threat perception' of the Israeli WMDs!!! You say Israel has never used them or intends to. But did Saddam's Iraq ever attack America (or even plan on doing it) or sell assumed WMDs to terrorists (the basis on which it was attacked)???? It was the 'threat perception' that prompted America to attack Iraq (leave aside the fact that the reasons for the war were all B.S.). So similarly, 'what' is so wrong with other countries trying to go down the WMD lane because of their 'threat perception analysis' of Israeli WMDs??? Wake up! Wake up! And smell the reality!! Iraq didnt have WMDs in 1981 or a program of that sort. Having a nuclear reactor doesnt say anything about WMDs. And Israel's WMDs were revealed by Vanunu in 1984 right? What makes you so sure Israel didnt have nuke capability from much before? Top class military analysists, themselves, have not been sure to this day as to how many nukes does Israel have or when actually did it achieve that capability so I'm surprised to see how confidently you 'claim' that it achieved the capability in 1984 (were you in-charge of it)??

And mind you, dont go down the religious lane over here 'cuz frankly, I'll make you regret it! Of course Islam does "not" allow Muslims to even 'hurt/harm' other Muslims; let alone 'killing' them!! The problem with the Islamic world today 'is' that they have deviated away from the true Islam and its teachings. Thats why they are facing the problems that are in front of 'em. Till they stamp out the petty differences they have amongst themselves, we can only 'hope' they'll all have a better future.

And you cry about Israel's terrible strategic position and it having no-where to go and stuff like that. Well my friend, "I" certainly did not tell the people in charge to 'plant' Israel right in the middle of Arab lands!!! That for me is the most 'stupid' actions in history ever taken!! If Jews were being persecuted in Germany, then after WWII, a part of Germany should have been allotted to the Jews as their new homeland (making it Israel); not taking a piece of the Arab world. What did the Arabs had to do with Jew persecution and torture in "Germany"?? It was a clear conspiracy against Islam and Arabs to create Israel on Arab soil giving it the reason of it being their Holy Land and stuff; and arming it to its teeth so as to be the little 'boss' of the region (at least on military terms). That doesnt solve the problem and it certainly 'hasnt'!!! Palestinians were thrown off their own homeland and they're suffering to this present day. Jews have lived in that area for centuries peacefully along with fellow Muslims but that doesn't give anyone any right to carve out a 'state' on their own and create differences in the region. Acceptability of Jews and acceptability of 'Isreal' as a state in the region are 'two' very different and 'distinctive' things and should not be confused to as being 'one'. Its about time you took a good look at your ignorance of grave matters.

95% of the Arab states in the region today have come to a change in attitude from the early days. They 'accept' Israel's right to exist where it is today but the only thorn remining is the Palestinian issue! If Israel and US cant compromise even that much, then its a sad story. Its about time Israel gave Palestinians their lands back to end possible conflict and dismantle its WMDs so that the 'threat perception' that haunts the Arab world (prompting individual states to go down the WMD lane) is eliminated and the region can move on to a better and prosperous future bringing stability as well as security to all!! :cop
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Mysterious, I'm not the one with the grave ignorance my friend. You stated Israel should never have been created where it was. Well my friend, the Jews were settled in "Palestine" along time before Islam was ever created. The fact that Jews were forcibly displaced doesn't make it any less their homeland. I don't have any blind love for WMD's possessed by anyone. I wish they were disposed of by everyone. Unfortunately a little thing which you convienently ignore called "reality" means they never will. Instead of childishly arguing that Israel alone should dispose of it's WMDS so as not to upset or "threaten" it's neighbours, perhaps you should equally vociferously call for and end to all WMD's. While such weapons exist, other countries will continue to develop them. There is no question that other countries in the Middle East possessed WMD's. There is no question that they are continuing to develop them. Israel will not give them up while this is occuring. every available bit of information that I have read, indicates that Israel only managed to achieve a nuclear capability in the early to mid eighties. The term capability refers to the ability to deliver a military effect, not the ability to technically construct a nuclear device. The ability to actually deliver a nuclear weapon (ie: from an aircraft or missile etc) is, I guess you're biggest problem with Israel, not their ability to construct a nuclear device. When did I claim any specific knowledge (or involvement) with the Israeli nuclear capability? Everything I stated is readily available from normal information sources (the internet, books, magazine etc). Your sarcastic comment there merely shows your ignorance and inability to discuss something logically, which upsets you. As to religion my friend. I am not a religious person, but I do consider myself a moral person. Something which unfortunately an awful lot of religious people cannot in all honesty claim. You completely missed my point about religion by the way my friend. I wasn't arguing that your knowledge of Islam is more extensive than mine. I made the point that you have a big problem with Israel possessing WMD's, but not Israel's enemies. I suppose you also think there's a problem with the US possessing WMD's but not Russia, according to that logic... Btw the Jews weren't simply persecuted in Germany. They have been persecuted throughout the world for centuries. Nowhere would have been more suitable for their homeland than their traditional one. Do you really think that no Arab country would develop WMD's if Israel didn't have them? Well I disagree with you if you do. Iraq WAS developing them without any apparent knowledge that Israel was doing the same.
 

mysterious

New Member
Man! I cant help but say that you are creating your own history over here. Let some historian read your comments and he'll laugh 'em off. The world only came to know of Israeli WMDs after Vanunu gave insight to them. Before that, it was all speculation. Everything was there much before that. Yes I believe that no other country in the region would develop WMDs if Israel didnt have them. Look at Iraq and Iran. Two of the most hostile nations to Israel and thats why they wanted WMDs to counter Israel's. I dont say that US should give up its nukes unless of course Russia is willing to do the same. They both have it to neutralize each other. China and India have it to neutralize each other. Pakistan and India have it to neutralize each other. What and who the 'hell' is Israel neutralizing with its nukes?? It already has a 'complete' superiority in conventional means. No need for unconventional stuff which has endangered the whole region. I never said Jews didnt exist where Israel is today. I said that they have been living peacefully with Muslims for centuries and they werent persecuted or forced to convert because if they were before Israel, there would've been no Jews at all in the region!!! After this idea of nation-states engulfed the Islamic world (defying Islamic teachings) and Israel as a nation-state was 'planted', problems arose! You yourself admit that persecution is perhaps too little a word to describe what Jews went through in Germany then why the 'hell' werent they given a piece/part of German land as their homeland (commonsense would say) as a means to compensate them for their sufferings? Please do not deny the fact that it was a complete conspiracy to create Israel where it is today (I have read quite a lot of reports of how it all went about at that time). And you say I should put emphasis on stopping WMD activities over all of the Middle East and not just focus in Israel's WMDs. Do you seriously have a 'thick' head? I just said that the countries in the region have been haunted all the while by Israels WMD threat perception and "that is why" they go down the WMD lane to counter Israel. If Israel dismantled its WMDs, there would be no 'reason' left for anyone in the region to go down the WMD lane anymore!! Right now, NO ONE has WMDs except Israel in the region. Iran is 'suspected' of going that way but nothing concrete on that matter. Libya gave up its quest. Iraq doesnt have any (the coalition is there to vouch for that). How do you know for sure that Iraq was in the early 80s trying to make WMDs without knowing Israel was/had already doing/done the same?? There are institutions called 'intelligence agencies'. Even if Iraq's or the Arab world's intelligence community was not that sophisticated, they at least possessed enough professionalism to get to know what was happening in their immediate backyards. :cop
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Don't patronise me mysterious, I'm neither thick headed or ignorant. And unlike you, I do not let emotion get in the way of my arguments or facts. Iran IS actively seeking a Nuclear weapons capability. Israel does possess nuclear weapons, though the numbers and date of entry are STILL completely speculative. Vanunu showed the world photographs of a number of warheads, which he stated were nuclear. The CIA filed a report in 1968 that said Israel would have nuclear weapons within 10 years. All of these fatcs are from www.fas.org. A reasonably widely accepted information source. Israel possesses a nuclear deterrent because it is not convinced it's "conventional" forces are sufficient. Just because they haven't yet been defeated, doesn't mean they can't be. In addition Israel has a relatively small standing army. It has a fairly large mobilisation base, but this takes a while to "ramp up". The Nuclear capability, is a hedge to ensure it's nations survival. Something with which it has had to contend with ever since it was created in the modern age. Btw, when has Israel ever attacked other Middle Eastern Countries likely to possess MWD's? (Apart from Osiriak and that was viewed as an act of self-defence against a country that had been shown to be more than willing to actually use WMD's, rather than simply possess a latent threat.) Your arguments fall flat because of prejudice against the Jewish people. I am not Jewish, but dislike prejudice in any form. I do not approve of WMD's being possessed by any Country. It is unreasonable however to expect a country to dispose of it's WMD's when countries in the Middle East (Syria, Egypt, Iraq {formerly} and Iran are actively seek WMD's) Do some research mysterious. You'll see this is the truth. These weapons are considered a matter of prestige and power amongst Statesmen. Their actual battlefield utility is somewhat lacking, hence their "weapon of last resort tag".
 

mysterious

New Member
See your problem here? I just told you in my previous post that Israel as a state and Jewish people are 'two' different and distinctive matters. Why would I have a problem with Jewish people? What have they done to me or Islam as such? I have Jewish friends here and like me many of them do speculate on Israel's legitimacy of being a state!!! Emotion? Emotion along with injustice is the main reasons why discussions like these take place. Think about it, you 'feel' Israel should be allowed to keep its WMD stockpiles while I dont 'feel' that way. What are feelings triggered by? Let me hint 'emot...'!! Emotions are involved in every single discussion on this planet because if emotions were not involved, the two sides wouldn't 'feel' anything towards a particular issue and so there would be 'no' issues as there would be no one to agree and/or disagree over matters!! When did Israel attack other countries in the region 'cuz of the 'perceived' threat from them?? Were Israeli airstrikes on Iraq's nuclear reactor a rehearsal or something? What act of self-defense are you talking about? Iraq was 'far' from achieving WMDs and their 'delivery'!! Israel's action would have been justified if Iraq already possessed high-tech nukes with the capability of delivering them and threat msgs coming out of Iraq. But in the circumstances that Israel took the offensive action, certainly showed Israel was willing cross the line of every commonsensical way of conducting your relations with your neighbours!! Hell, Israel even planned taking out Pakistan's nuclear sites before 1998 testings by Pakistan. Some reports in mid-2003 said that it was now planning to take out Iranian facilities. What the 'hell' is this?? You go and bomb any place you feel like doing. What is this? A wild shooting spree?? Everyone now knows that when it comes to US and Israel, no international law and rule really applies in practice because they have their own belief of being above every law set down in the books. Till this pathetic attitude is dropped, no one can be really safe anywhere. :cop
 

Indianguy

New Member
Look Mysti the problem with you is that you look things from your own point of view. This problem of Isrel was gone long way back

During 60's when whole arab world united under the banner is islam to root out Isreal and make this thing a religious Muslim - Jew.

Why you think that US and ISreal is ony above the international law? See Pakistan which developed nuclear Technology and missile though polifiratioo and still don;t have any international sanctions despite proof .
See china , which gives nuke design and magnet rings and other things to PAk despite not to do so, didn;t invite any scantions?

See Iran which accepted to develop wepon grade Uranium didn;t got international scantions ?

Things happen but Muslim world choose to ignore it.

See bosina , didn;t US and EU help in creating a muslim country? why Muslim world forget that and never appriciate that.

Well take hammas , well hammas leaders and soilders always fight in civilin area and fight form home make small boys and womesn and unarmed man as shields. OS when Isreal tries to take them out they firls at then and hide behind the civilians , so in the process civilian also died.

If you now when Isreal surrounded 10 most wnated millient , they hide themself in the church of Navity, holiest site of christian and why they hide? If they are real soilders they will fight till thier last breath , but they didn;t becasue of thier habilt of making other human as shild so that enemy didn;t kill them and if they kill them by chance so they will be protayed a bad bacsue they kill also civilian with them.

you know Sheak Yasim, which was killed by Isreal , when Isreal first strike him, he surrived and aftre that he was never left alone and he always travel with civilans , but that day Isreal got litle bit chance and they made it possible.

After the another leader appoint, whicha dvocates openly to kill al isreali and no to existance of Isreal , so when ISreal kill him , did Isreal done naything wrong? No certainly not , beacsue he will send sucide bombers and he will .

Sryria , arab world put condemnation in UN but any arab state ever condemb Hammas in UN ever? even when they blown up childers they never bring nay resolution condemming Hammas.

US always vetoed AAnti Isreal UN resolution , becasue US always said it never condened Hamms and why Arab world did not condemd Hammas for it acts.

Back to Nuclear , sreal has all right to build and keep wepons because late Iraq and Iran ahs chemical wepons and they will intended to use it again isreal if war again happen , the response of Isreal will be of nuclear one again the chemical one .

[Mod edit: Drop the rhetoric]

So when Isreal is surrounded by hostile enemy from all side then it should have things ready.

[Mod edit: Drop the rhetoric]

Every civilization wnats to be thier at homeland. jew wnats their temp mount , their holiest site and one which they life before they was though out by invaders .

howcome muslim coummunity react if they r not in control of mecca n madina?

I don;t understand howcome the place which is the symbol of other religion like temple mount (jew) exist long before of islam is beocme the 3rd important place in islam?

Isreal has every right to live thier home land and every right to back their holiest place of thier belief. which was their long before and muslim community should udnerstand this.

Myst... you are talking about things in Iraq and everyone else also in arab world but no one is talking about the things happening in Sudan where Arab millita backed by govt is cleasing black africian and UN also citied is worst Human crises till now and largest ever ethinic cleasing....

No muslim country or community is saying about this? is nay muslims country will ever brough resolution in UN condemming nay bro muslim country ? certainly not.

how will muslim react world wide if same thing happening in opposite of it , back clearing muslims? world wide muslim country pass resolution in UN , ask action etc etc , send own men thier but remain keep quite when their people doing things with others.

I don;t know if balck afracian started to revenge on abab militia how will muslim country going to react which are quite now.

Things are that muslim country always see one side of the story not the other , they see what other are doing with them but choose to ignore what they are doing with other which are only the reaction of this.

this is what ahppen with Isreal and don;t know if black afracian will also take revenge on sudan and also open an another front .
 

adsH

New Member
this ridiculous the Media should remain UNbias or should become more unbiased and i still think israel has the rite to keep nukes why does Pakistan have nukes a paralell can be drawn to each of there situations. Arab countries are not mature enough to hold such weapons look at sadam he used WMD on his own people. rest assured Israel would not nuke its neighbors simply because it wan't to exsist there(preferably coexist ther in piece).
 
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