another indian fighter jet crashes

[The Watcher]

Cycle of death continues. India should sue Russia for making such a lousy plane like mig21 or are they just too old that they should be retired?

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Defence and Strategic News
Four die, 15 hurt as Indian airforce MiG-21 crash

URL of this article: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/printer_1357.shtml
Feb 20, 2004, 08:17

AHMEDABAD, India: Four people were killed and 15 injured when an Indian airforce MiG-21 fighter jet ploughed into a village and set ablaze several houses in the western Indian state of Gujarat Friday, police said.

Three people including two children were instantly killed while a 50-year-old man succumbed to his injuries later in hospital, a police official said.

The Russian-designed jet crashed into a house in Lakha Baval village, 300 kilometres (186 miles) from Gujarat's commercial capital Ahmedabad.

Those killed instantly were a 19-year-old man, a five year-old boy and a five-year-old girl, a police official said.

Burning aviation fuel spilled across the village as the plane broke into 17 pieces, the air force said, adding that the fire engulfed seven houses in the village.

A total of 15 houses were damaged, police said, adding that six children and two women were among those injured by falling debris and fire.

The pilot bailed out safely and escaped with minor scratches, he said, adding that the aircraft had taken off from an airbase in the western Indian town of Bhuj, the epicentre of a 2001 earthquake that had killed more than 20,000 people.

The cause of the crash was not immediately known, an air force spokesman said.

On February 7, a MiG-23 fighter aircraft crashed in the desert state of Rajasthan, killing the pilot.

More than 100 Indian air force pilots have died in the past decade in crashes of MiGs, which are so accident-prone they have been nicknamed "flying coffins" in India.

 

[Panzer]

Cycle of death continues. India should sue Russia for making such a lousy plane like mig21 or are they just too old that they should be retired?

India is shortly going to retire Mig-21 and is going to buy Mirage-2000-5 as mentioned in another thread

 

[mysterious]

India's 'flying coffins'

well I've been reading a lot about accidental IAF jet crashes in the past decade or so and man! its the highest in the world! Just yesterday a Mig-21 crashed in Gujarat I think. Take a look at these articles!

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/72005/1/.html

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/iafgraph.html

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/schowdhury1.html

I dont know how much the acquisition of Su-30 MKIs and Mirage 2000-5s is gona help IAF in numbers cuz it has too many Squadrons based on Mig-21s and 29s which are becoming very very dangerous for pilots, even Jaguars! :cop
Thank God Pakistan doesn't have this much problem in accidents of fighter jets. :smokingc:

 

[mysterious]

here's another link. this involved a Mig-23 going down!

http://www.flysouth.co.za/news/2004-02-13/Indian air force MiG-23 crashes.htm

:cop

 

[Soldier]

Re: India's 'flying coffins'

well I've been reading a lot about accidental IAF jet crashes in the past decade or so and man! its the highest in the world! Just yesterday a Mig-21 crashed in Gujarat I think. Take a look at these articles!

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/72005/1/.html

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/iafgraph.html

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/schowdhury1.html

I dont know how much the acquisition of Su-30 MKIs and Mirage 2000-5s is gona help IAF in numbers cuz it has too many Squadrons based on Mig-21s and 29s which are becoming very very dangerous for pilots, even Jaguars! :cop
Thank God Pakistan doesn't have this much problem in accidents of fighter jets. :smokingc:

One can only hope that India is able to come up with LCA to replace MIG-21's. As to Mirage and SU's are concerned Mysterious, that is a totally different ballgame. We are buying them but not in the quantity to replace MIG-21's and I guess that is the reason for LCA project. It is taking awfully long time but still it will be worth it. As to the accidents, there are pilot mistakes along with perhaps inferior quality of components which I am not really sure about. MIG-21 is a very unforgiving aircraft and we are bearing the brunt for it. Aircrafts can be purchased but human life which is being lost in the process is terrible.

 

[mysterious]

yeah man! i hope IAF gets over this aircraft accident problem. My sympathies with the families of those pilots. They're all good servicemen.

 

[viveksac]

Re: India's 'flying coffins'

I think soldier is right.
This aircraft is not forgiving at all.
The IAF reported that the main cause of accidents is from engine failures.
Man, if your on low flight sorty and cannot get the power you need at the right time ....your surely gonna be in a dangerous position.

I wonder if anybody has tried introducing DFCS in it. Cause I think this would aid the pilot a lot. PLus the aircraft like this needs modifications both structurally and electronically as a whole to be a real potent fighter to todays world. The Mig- 21 - 2000 from isreal would solve a lot of problems both would still succumb to western aircraft in dog - fight because I dont think it is an agile aircraft design. However, modifying some areas in its shape would make really good such as doing something with the tail wing part and the vertical fin and increasing the view of the pilot.(A good example are the chinese modification--- I dont remeber the aircraft).

I think instead going for Mig 21/23/27 the IAF should have had more of Mig - 25 or 33. Those aircraft are agile up to some extent but still require modifications. The engines in these aircraft are really big which could be taken out depending on the role for which they would be chosen.

However, the LCA looks a real good aircraft to replace these Migs. The only draw back I think in this aircraft is its going to be the operating range.
The more the range of weapons that it can carry ...the more it can be chosen for various missions. However, I have seen from the talk of gf0012, that it is not much stealthy. Could you please explain why? (By the LCA...I mean the single engine delta wing aircraft that appears very close to Mirage-2000). I dont know whether they could overpower to f-16s or f-15s but they would certainly put up a good fight and would certainly contest with mirage-2000 - 5s or any other aircraft in it category.

I think they should start introducing this aircraft by this year end cause they already have it flying plus Mac 1. The IAf already has a number of out-dated aircraft which are not capable of firing PGMs. I think a six months weaponsiation program would do good because all you need is a radar and a good heat seeking missile to get potent(I may be off here a bit). hahahaha. But the time they have the real weaponsization done, they can simply upgrade the existing ones in terms of electronics and software.

 

[gf0012-aust]

viveksac, it's certainly a difficult fighter to come to grips with. The IAF has attributed a 68% failure rate to pilot error.

The problem with the definition of pilot error is that say a pilot is landing, and there is insufficient throttle, then it may flame out, the pilot panics, ejects - and that consitutes a pilot error when it may well have been an engine error.

It would be interesting to see the accident reports, eg, whether they were take offs, landings, high angles of attacks, loop manouvres etc...

I still think it is airframe-sub component failure that is triggering these.

I'd bet that none of the Bisons have crashed.

If you look at the track record of IAF crashes:

MiG-21 (56);
MiG-23 (11);
MiG-27 (12);
MiG-29 (3);
Jaguar (7)

The bulk of them are airframes where a high degree of kapton is in place.
After 20-25 years kapton starts to become brittle and will start failing. If the cables are in a position where they will dead short (especially near a fuel line), then - no more plane.

 

[viveksac]

But how do think of them in terms of combat capability with western fighter aircraft?

 

[viveksac]

I for one, seriously think given the appropriate avionic updates, they would stilld require physical modifications. Besides India manufactures these aircraft on the bases of its design, so physically some of them would quite young.

 

[viveksac]

In terms of structural visibility to rate agility, I think the following Russian fighter aircraft are great in the order of agility:

1. Su-30.
2. Mig 29.
3. Mig 33.
4. Mig - 25.

Now, I heard reports of Indian Mig-29 landing in Israel. If western avionic suite goes to these russian aircraft, this could be real great mix. cause I have heard that russian systems are not all that great in terms of electronics.

Also, nobody has talked about the green pine radars that India has bought.
I think this is a real great choice for theater ballistic and anti - aircraft defence system. Also, the s-400 system is great. I shall have to form a topic of anti-ballistic and anti-aircraft defence system . This is one fine topic to discuss

 

[gf0012-aust]

I for one, seriously think given the appropriate avionic updates, they would stilld require physical modifications. Besides India manufactures these aircraft on the bases of its design, so physically some of them would quite young.

I know there have been problems with them due to some involvement I have had with aerospace companies. They have had problems with cabling and harness deterioration. I have dealt with a number of Indian "middlemen" who were attempting to source replacement stock.

New harnesses and connectors have to be built as the Russians are unable to provide N.O.S. or replacement stock. As the connectors are unique, then it means new connectors and interconnects. - Hence the Bison upgrades.

The airframes may be young, but unfortunately some of the internals are not. Those early generation Migs are flying coffins, widow makers, and need to be shut down, upgraded or replaced ASAP.

 

[viveksac]

I agree....Even if to preserve nostalgia....they should be treated as secondary or even tertiary operational fighter aircraft in terms of only air support to army operations(in any airforce) and not primary air operations aircraft.

 

[viveksac]

The Harness item that your talking about. What is it used for?
And why not make it locally?

Nevertheless, I dont think this aircraft has real good reviews ever since it was first fabricated by russia.

 

[Roger Smith]

It is sad though, if a plane crash.

The MiG-21 is a flying coffin to the IAF, as F-104 Starfighter was a flying coffin to the German Air Force during late 70s and early 80s.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The Harness item that your talking about. What is it used for?
And why not make it locally?

Nevertheless, I dont think this aircraft has real good reviews ever since it was first fabricated by russia.

The harness is the entire wiring loom, ie a combination of all of the planes wiring looms, connectors and interconnects.

The problem is that the type of wire used was discovered some time ago to become brittle with age. To replace it you have to strip the entire plane. Depending on the value of the plane strategicallly, iy may not be worth doing. The Mig 21, 23, 25, 27 are all units that are not considered survivable on a modern war theatre unless substantially upgraded

 

[mysterious]

Agreed. They have major problems due to this issue.

 

[suleman]

Indian air force jet crashes near Pakistan, killing pilot

NEW DELHI: An Indian air force Jaguar fighter jet crashed Thursday near the border with Pakistan as it practiced a bombing mission, killing the pilot instantly, an official said, a foreign news agency reported.

It was the second crash in six days for the air force. 'It has been a fatal accident ... It was apparently a malfunction', Squadron Leader Mahesh Upasni, the Indian air force
spokesman, said.

The pilot was attempting a low altitude maneuver near Pokaran in Rajasthan state, where India tested its nuclear weapons 1998.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2004-daily/26-02-2004/main/update.shtml#19

I feel sorry for indian pilot firstly they die coz of Russian based fighters which are not reliable secondly the biggest reason is the Maintenance standards of IAF which are certainly the biggest resons for soo many crashes.

 

[Red aRRow]

Merging.

 

[viveksac]

Re: Indian air force jet crashes near Pakistan, killing pilot

This may not be a maintainance snag.
Anyways its too soon to say anything.
It was a Jaguar this time.