New Frigates for Algerian Navy

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Quick question does anyone know of this project, 4 frigates are to be ordered, 2 produced by the company winning the tender the other 2 to be produced in Mers el Kebir.

Who are tendering and what designs are being looked at? I believe FREMM was under consideration at some point.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Russia was invited to tender too, early last year. The deal under discussion was for two Project 1135.6 frigates along with upgrades for two Algerian Konis (presumably the two that were not upgraded in 2000). The price thrown around back then was "$800-900 million".

Sarkozy offered FREMMs in December, i think.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Just found out that BAe are offering upgraded type 23's. Would a Type 23 be able to compete with a FREMM?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Jane's reported that last June. Yes, new builds. Would apparently be a package deal with helos.

The question is somewhat just why Algeria would want that many ships (not the size/capability/price of the ships, but the amount). And which ships they would replace.

Current active units (from Jane's):

- 2 Kilo Pr 676 SSK; acquired in 2007
- 2 Kilo Pr 877EM SSK; acquired 1987-1988
- 3 Koni II (newest one upgraded in 2000); 1900 tons, acquired 1980-85
- 3 Nanuchka II (one or two upgraded in 2000); 660 tons, acquired 1980-1982
- 2 Project 802 (indigenous); 540 tons, acquired 1988-1995
- 6 Osa II; 245 tons, acquired 1976-1980

The upgraded Nanuchka and Koni carry new electronics/radars. Nanuchka(s) got SSMs switched for Uran/Switchblade, the Koni got heavyweight torpedoes as new armament.
Would be a pity about those if they were already sold/scrapped.

The Osas are likely to go, fast. The non-upgraded Nanuchkas too.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I don't understand why Algeria should invest in large frigates while its navy's role is essentially coastal patrol. It should buy large OPVHs and replace corvettes and Koni light frigates with some well armed corvettes more in the class of Gowind than FREMM...
I would target for example 6 Gowind and 6 Comandanti class OPVHs.
Buying a lone FREMM would be quite useless, and I doubt they have a budget for acquiring more than 1 6000 tonne FFGs, with the army and especially the air force in a massive buying spree.

cheers

PS I don't think further contracts with Russia will be signed until the issue with the poor quality MIG29s has been solved.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Why don't Algeria take the three F2000s off of the Brunei's sultan hands. They seem to be a good fit for them. Nice, modern new small frigates.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Why don't Algeria take the three F2000s off of the Brunei's sultan hands. They seem to be a good fit for them. Nice, modern new small frigates.
You're right. They would however create quite a lot of complexity for the Algerian navy : new SSM, new SAM, new artillery calibre...

cheers
 

Alpha Epsilon

New Member
So, can anyone elaborate on the BAE-Algeria connection? I read in Janes about 8 months ago that they were in talks about modified new build Type 23s, but since then it's been rather quiet?

Just found out that BAe are offering upgraded type 23's. Would a Type 23 be able to compete with a FREMM?
Depends on the modifications really, a standard T23 is not as good as a FREMM, but it isn't that far behind and a T23 should be significantly cheaper, especially with the weak pound.
 

Jon K

New Member
I don't understand why Algeria should invest in large frigates while its navy's role is essentially coastal patrol. It should buy large OPVHs and replace corvettes and Koni light frigates with some well armed corvettes more in the class of Gowind than FREMM...
You're confusing sense with defense procurement, a cardinal error. Especially in case of a country which is situated number 99 out of 179 in Transparency International's Corruptions Perception Index.
 

CarrierRider

New Member
Has DCNS lost the Algeria deal?

The summer proved to be rough for officials of French warship builder DCNS who have been working for nearly a year to land a contract from Algeria’s defense ministry for the FREMM multi-mission frigate. During chancellor Angela Merkel’s visit to Algeria in July it was widely rumored that Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) had won the contract for frigates by under-cutting DCNS’ bid. Since then Italy’s Finmeccanica has ducked out of the competition because its offer didn’t meet all of the Algerian navy’s specifications, and it didn’t put in a fresh one. However, the British are now knocking on the door. A delegation from BAE Systems spent a week in the country in late August and the group is expected to now submit a bid in mid-September. Elsewhere, a memo from the French foreign intelligence agency DGSE is doing the rounds to state that Germany’s TKMS had won the package worth between EUR4 and EUR6 billion.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
You're right. They would however create quite a lot of complexity for the Algerian navy : new SSM, new SAM, new artillery calibre...

cheers
The FREMM has the same gun as the Nakhod Ragams, & also different SAMs & SSMs from any Algeria currently operates.
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Appearing in
Jane's Fighting Ships
Publication date
Jul 14, 2008

Notes: Acquisition of two new frigates is reportedly under consideration. Russia is a traditional supplier and the Project 20380 Steregushchiy class is likely to be considered. The French FREMM frigate is another contender.
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jfs/jfs_a714.html

2038.0 Steregushchiy would be a much more likely follow-on to 1159.2 Koni than 1135.6 Krivak

Initially, the French warship builder DCNS offered to sell four 1,700-ton Gowind 170 corvettes designed for a crew of 65 and equipped with a helicopter deck to the Algerian Navy for around EUR 800 million
http://www.africaintelligence.com/C...ce=art&comment=&context=his&doc_i_id=42874618

Not just FREMM or FREMM rather than some other french alternative?

29/ 03/ 2007
Talks on the construction of frigates for Algeria have come to a deadlock because three factories are bidding for the project, Kommersant said.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070329/62781987.html

Russian offer may not be the only one and not unproblematic

Other contracts still requiring further talks include the sale of four German-built frigates to the Algerian navy at a cost of about 5 billion euros, a government spokeswoman said on condition she not be identified.
Last Updated: July 17, 2008

http://www.algeria-watch.org/en/articles/2008/merkel_lobbies.htm
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070329/62781987.html

apparently germans are bidding too
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Has DCNS lost the Algeria deal?

... However, the British are now knocking on the door. A delegation from BAE Systems spent a week in the country in late August and the group is expected to now submit a bid in mid-September. ...

While the Algerian's have close ties with France, they are looking at the "Bang for your Buck" principle. Obviously they've not priced it as nicely as the Algerian's would have liked, IF, they've definitively been "non-down selected".


Since Algeria's neighbour Libya has been welcomed back into the global community, I think that there's a need for countries on the North African coast to start to replace their outdated Russian technology. They see the West as a "more appropriate" option, as buying Arms from the UK / US shows certain alignment with Western philosophies.

Algeria has need to update her fleet, which I'm led to believe, contains a few vessels that are more than 40 years old. In addition if you look at her coast line, the waterfront onto the med is over 700 miles long !!

Looking at the Type-23 hull, Algeria has obviously seen how successful these have been for both the UK & Chile. I don't doubt they would love to have a few 2nd hand ships, but that isn't gonna happen any time soon, so it's probable that they're looking for the Hull form / Platform, but not necessarily the Weapons fit.

That aside, I'm sure if the deal is correct, they'd take what BAE is offering, including specific systems / equipment (Radars, Missiles, etc), support through life / spares & additional ship hulls (including maybe an oiler, an LSD(A), an LPD, or even a few F2000 derivative type hulls, who knows ??).

Phased over say 10 year period, they could build a comfortable sized navy, with adequate support ships, capable of protecting their EEZ & coastline.


Now that's progress !!

SA
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
While the Algerian's have close ties with France, they are looking at the "Bang for your Buck" principle. Obviously they've not priced it as nicely as the Algerian's would have liked, IF, they've definitively been "non-down selected".


Since Algeria's neighbour Libya has been welcomed back into the global community, I think that there's a need for countries on the North African coast to start to replace their outdated Russian technology. They see the West as a "more appropriate" option, as buying Arms from the UK / US shows certain alignment with Western philosophies.

Algeria has need to update her fleet, which I'm led to believe, contains a few vessels that are more than 40 years old. In addition if you look at her coast line, the waterfront onto the med is over 700 miles long !!

Looking at the Type-23 hull, Algeria has obviously seen how successful these have been for both the UK & Chile. I don't doubt they would love to have a few 2nd hand ships, but that isn't gonna happen any time soon, so it's probable that they're looking for the Hull form / Platform, but not necessarily the Weapons fit.

That aside, I'm sure if the deal is correct, they'd take what BAE is offering, including specific systems / equipment (Radars, Missiles, etc), support through life / spares & additional ship hulls (including maybe an oiler, an LSD(A), an LPD, or even a few F2000 derivative type hulls, who knows ??).

Phased over say 10 year period, they could build a comfortable sized navy, with adequate support ships, capable of protecting their EEZ & coastline.


Now that's progress !!

SA
Erm, for a 700 mile coastline wouldn't they be better off with OPV's, FAC's or patrol boats? Compare this to say Australia which including Islands larger then 12 Ha. has a coastline of 47,070km. Besides, if they bought MIG's wouldn't they be able to buy some Anti-Ship missiles for them from Russia to do the higher end tasks?

In regards to the Type 23's, would installing Mica VL on them rather then Sea Wolf give a better upgrade path to CAMM since both missiles have active guidance?
 
Several weeks ago, there were rumors that Brazil will procure 6 FREMM and 4 Scorpene from DCNS. Well the Scorpene, deal has been announced, the link is below. The Scorpene contract will be signed when Sarkozy visits Brazil in late December. This deal will get signed because the Brazil's first SSN will be based on the Scorpene design. Other deals will probably be announced during the visit.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108363

The Germans orders to build a shipyard in Algeria, on which the frigates would be manufactured. In the French proposal, two of the Algerian frigates, would be built by DCNS. The Algerians are interested in technology transfers, so the BAE deal is probably in last place. Plus, Algeria does more trade with France, Russia, Germany, than with the U.K.

The Algerians can easy afford new 4 Frigates. Even the Moroccans are buying 3 Sigmas and 1 FREMM.
 
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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Several weeks ago, there were rumors that Brazil will procure 6 FREMM and 4 Scorpene from DCNS. Well the Scorpene, deal has been announced, the link is below. The Scorpene contract will be signed when Sarkozy visits Brazil in late December. This deal will get signed because the Brazil's first SSN will be based on the Scorpene design. Other deals will probably be announced during the visit.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108363

The Germans orders to build a shipyard in Algeria, on which the frigates would be manufactured. In the French proposal, two of the Algerian frigates, would be built by DCNS. The Algerians are interested in technology transfers, so the BAE deal is probably in last place. Plus, Algeria does more trade with France, Russia, Germany, than with the U.K.

The Algerians can easy afford new 4 Frigates. Even the Moroccans are buying 3 Sigmas and 1 FREMM.
I was under the impression that the Sigma's are upgunned OPV's. They are only ~1,500t which is the same displacement as a River Class OPV, hardly the size and armament of a frigate.
 
I was under the impression that the Sigma's are upgunned OPV's. They are only ~1,500t which is the same displacement as a River Class OPV, hardly the size and armament of a frigate.
Here is the weapons layout of the Moroccan Sigmas,

Qty. Type Displacements
1 SIGMA 98.13 2300tons
2 SIGMA 10,513 2100tons


Weapon Systems

12 VL-Mica
2 20 mm
76mm Oto Melara
4 Exocet MM40 MM40 Exocet
MU90 torpedos
 
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tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
While the Algerian's have close ties with France, they are looking at the "Bang for your Buck" principle. Obviously they've not priced it as nicely as the Algerian's would have liked, IF, they've definitively been "non-down selected".


Since Algeria's neighbour Libya has been welcomed back into the global community, I think that there's a need for countries on the North African coast to start to replace their outdated Russian technology. They see the West as a "more appropriate" option, as buying Arms from the UK / US shows certain alignment with Western philosophies.

Algeria has need to update her fleet, which I'm led to believe, contains a few vessels that are more than 40 years old. In addition if you look at her coast line, the waterfront onto the med is over 700 miles long !!

Looking at the Type-23 hull, Algeria has obviously seen how successful these have been for both the UK & Chile. I don't doubt they would love to have a few 2nd hand ships, but that isn't gonna happen any time soon, so it's probable that they're looking for the Hull form / Platform, but not necessarily the Weapons fit.

That aside, I'm sure if the deal is correct, they'd take what BAE is offering, including specific systems / equipment (Radars, Missiles, etc), support through life / spares & additional ship hulls (including maybe an oiler, an LSD(A), an LPD, or even a few F2000 derivative type hulls, who knows ??).

Phased over say 10 year period, they could build a comfortable sized navy, with adequate support ships, capable of protecting their EEZ & coastline.


Now that's progress !!

SA
Might the Brits be offering the Nakhoda Ragam Class ships originally intended for Brunei?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I was under the impression that the Sigma's are upgunned OPV's. They are only ~1,500t which is the same displacement as a River Class OPV, hardly the size and armament of a frigate.
Sigma is a range, not a single ship. Standard procedure for Schelde, like their amphibious ships.
 
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