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Modern CIWS systems

This is a discussion on Modern CIWS systems within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Waylander Are this civil prices? If yes double the price at minimum. We are talking of military ...


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Old January 28th, 2007   #31
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Are this civil prices?

If yes double the price at minimum.
We are talking of military purchases.
that is my opinion of what it would cost and still make 100% profit margin , so "yes", thats a civilian price.

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Old January 28th, 2007   #32
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Ah.
I think especially naval equipment tends to be really, really expensive compared to its civil counterparts.

For example I recently have read that the power outlets on our ship cost ten times more than a normal power outlet due to the special requirements (And dumb purchase decisions done by bueraucratic MoDs )
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Old January 30th, 2007   #33
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IMO, the 57mm may be a capable AA gun, as is the 76mm and 127mm, but it is not a CIWS. You would be hoping that the 57mm might bring down a target before it gets into CIWS range. The CIWS is the last line of defence, other, perhaps, than potshots from manually operated MGs (and if you are depending on them then the situation has probably reached the hopeless stage!).

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I guess the answer then is that we could rig a 57mm to be able to track a target quickly enough for the CIWS role, and given the right ammunition it might be reasonably effective. Whether it would be more cost effective than existing CIWS systems is debatable but it would certainly provide a weapon with dual capability.Given though that no navy, AFAIK, has attempted to use a calibre this large for the CIWS role, it seems that there is no great enthusiasm for this kind of concept.

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I should have been paying more attention to what I wrote. Offcourse I didn't want to claim that the Bofors 57mm is a CIWS. What I meant was that it could be used as an anti ship missile gun in a close range. I fact that is what Bofors here in Sweden claims. The Swedish navy have used the 57mm for a realy long time and we don't have any CIWS as such on our corvetts. We don't have any large ships in fact. My point is that the Swedish navy, out of either necesity and/or preference use the 57mm gun for surface and airborne threats. Offcourse this "airborne threat" doesn't imply how good it is vs missile. But that is what the Swedish navy is stuck with and I dont belive that they would be inefficient about it. So Tasman, now you know that Sweden does use it for CIWS'ish stuff.

As other ppl mentioned above, the 57mm can put out a big pellets carpet hard for anything to pass through unhurt. If up until now (which I find to be very unlikly) no one have developed a suitabel mechanical gear to alow a 57mm to track a manouvering incoming missile, there is nothing saying it couldn't be developed. I personaly belive that the 57mm is better than the 76mm at defeating missiles which is why USN choose it for the LCS.

/Dan
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Old January 31st, 2007   #34
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I should have been paying more attention to what I wrote. Offcourse I didn't want to claim that the Bofors 57mm is a CIWS. What I meant was that it could be used as an anti ship missile gun in a close range. I fact that is what Bofors here in Sweden claims. The Swedish navy have used the 57mm for a realy long time and we don't have any CIWS as such on our corvetts. We don't have any large ships in fact. My point is that the Swedish navy, out of either necesity and/or preference use the 57mm gun for surface and airborne threats. Offcourse this "airborne threat" doesn't imply how good it is vs missile. But that is what the Swedish navy is stuck with and I dont belive that they would be inefficient about it. So Tasman, now you know that Sweden does use it for CIWS'ish stuff.
Thanks for the info z1pp0. The Swedish navy is not the only one that has to make do with what it has for 'CIWS'ish stuff'. Some RAN frigates have no CIWS to back up their Sea Sparrow SAMs and the fall back (apart from relying on decoys) is the 0.50 MG! These vessels though will be re-equipped with ESSM (which may mean a CIWS is unnecessary) and perhaps a VSRADS such as RAM, though as I mentioned earlier, this is not yet authorized. Smaller RAN vessels such as patrol boats and mine warfare vessels rely on guns like the 25mm and 30mm for dealing with air threats. Army RB70 SAM detachments are sometimes deployed to do or at least supplement the 'CIWS'ish stuff' on support and amphibious ships. The 57mm would stand up well compared with some of these weapons and I would love to see it deployed on RAN patrol boats.

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As other ppl mentioned above, the 57mm can put out a big pellets carpet hard for anything to pass through unhurt. If up until now (which I find to be very unlikly) no one have developed a suitabel mechanical gear to alow a 57mm to track a manouvering incoming missile, there is nothing saying it couldn't be developed.
I'm sure it could.

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I personaly belive that the 57mm is better than the 76mm at defeating missiles which is why USN choose it for the LCS.
I think the USN would be relying on other systems (including the LCS's own decoys and RAM) to defeat missiles attacking an LCS but it would certainly be deployed as part of a layered defence and, with the right ammunition, might be able to bring down an attacking aircraft or missile before it gets too close. I don't see the LCS operating in isolation from other USN assets. BTW I think the 57mm should prove a good general purpose weapon on these vessels.

Cheers

Last edited by Tasman; January 31st, 2007 at 01:56 AM. Reason: additional info
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Old March 1st, 2007   #35
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We have got Sea Zenith
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Old March 1st, 2007   #36
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We have got Sea Zenith
Apart from the fact it is a 4 barrelled 25mm CIWS I don't know much about the Sea Zenith. Turk, are you, or any other members for that matter, able to tell us how well it has it performed in service with the Turkish Navy? Also, has it been adopted by any other navy?

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Old March 1st, 2007   #37
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Actually Sea Zenith is only using by Turkish Navy.And our officers always said that when they are in the exercises and during this exercises sea zenith trials they always succeeded Sea Zenith. I have got some sources but they are Turkish so as soon as possible I will share with everybody.
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Old March 1st, 2007   #38
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SEA ZENITH
Builder: Oerlikon, Switzerland
Caliber: 25 mm.
Rate of fire: 3200 rounds / min.
Range: 2 km
Used in: Yavuz, Barbaros, classes
Close-In Weapon System used only by the Turkish Navy. There are 3 mounts in each ship and each mount has 4 barrels.

here is the details.
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Old March 1st, 2007   #39
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Found a pic of sea zenith here: http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/...ate/1170399100

Noticed the markings?

Would be very interesting to know how it performs.
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Old March 1st, 2007   #40
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thanks for the picture
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Old April 12th, 2007   #41
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Whatever became of that German quad bk-27 mount?
Also, Oerlikon supposedly had a twin 25mm gatling mount, 'zenith style' . Anything ever come of that?
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Old April 12th, 2007   #42
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Whatever became of that German quad bk-27 mount?
Also, Oerlikon supposedly had a twin 25mm gatling mount, 'zenith style' . Anything ever come of that?
Mauser Drakon and Oerlikon Myriad. Died. both. About 15 years ago, when neither was procured.

Both companies were bought by Rheinmetall, which deleted both from their product lists several years ago. Some development work from Drakon went into the MLG-27 remote-controlled gun mount.
Rheinmetall also straightened out the plethora of Oerlikon guns somewhat, they're only selling the 20mm KAA and the 25mm KBA really anymore out of all those guns Oerlikon made. The 25mm KBB (different ammunition than the KBA) used in the Sea Zenith for example isn't officially on sale anymore (i'd guess Turkey has a license to build them though).
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Old April 13th, 2007   #43
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...Having seen a 57mm in AA mode in action(20 round Burst), it's acceptable to say that it COULD be used as a CIWS.

However it does all come down to the quality of the tracking & combat system the gun is integrated with and the operator actually picking up the missile on it's inbound track.

Seeing a 6ft long, 8 - 10 inch wide tube "Missile", travelling at 500Kts. while being used as a towed target, then obliterated somewhere between 3Km & 1Km is proof enough for me !



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Old April 14th, 2007   #44
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The Russians will probably puke blood when they see this. Is there anything the Chinese military won't copy off of?

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4510/300495wc7.jpg
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Old April 15th, 2007   #45
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...Having seen a 57mm in AA mode in action(20 round Burst), it's acceptable to say that it COULD be used as a CIWS.

However it does all come down to the quality of the tracking & combat system the gun is integrated with and the operator actually picking up the missile on it's inbound track.

Seeing a 6ft long, 8 - 10 inch wide tube "Missile", travelling at 500Kts. while being used as a towed target, then obliterated somewhere between 3Km & 1Km is proof enough for me !



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Presumably using 3P ammunition?
Can you elaborate more on the mount and combat system used?
What nationality was involved?
The USN have adopted the 57mm for some of their vessels, but 3P is made by Bofors (i think). The US have developed the competing AHEAD ammunition but I only know of its use in 35mm. However I would think that upsizing into a 57mm design would be relatively easy for the US.
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