Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Navy & Maritime

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence


Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates

This is a discussion on Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; The Bulgarians have pushed back the Gowind deal with France.They are buying some old upgraded Belgium frigates. Sarko has to ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 18 votes, 4.78 average.
Old December 8th, 2007   #1
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 236
Threads:
Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates

The Bulgarians have pushed back the Gowind deal with France.They are buying some old upgraded Belgium frigates. Sarko has to be very embarrassed, Muammar al-Gaddafi is visiting Paris this Monday. Seif el-Islam Gaddafi, a son of the colonel's, said that they want to buy alot of military equipment, in a interview with Le Figaro.

The Jeanne D'Arc may be replace by a ferry. The plan would be very expense. I don't like the plan because of the expense.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=106095

The Dupleix, Montcalm, and Jean de Vienne are Georges Leygues class frigates; they're armed with 2 sadrals each. The sadrals should be removed from the GL class ships, and be installed on Horizons and Mistrals. The 3 GL class frigates would then replace the sadrals with simbads; they also have 2 30mm mausers each on abroad them.
Spacearrow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #2
Senior Member
Major
harryriedl's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: london
Posts: 1,018
Threads:
Well this threads been a longtime in comming. i thought there was a plan to a cut down Minstral class as a JdA replacement not a ferry [was that plan cut due to costs]
________________
Colin McRae 1961-2007 true champion
Unofficial Royal navy cheering section
harryriedl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #3
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 236
Threads:
According to estimates from the French Ministry of Defense, it lacks 5 billion euros to finance its main projects. The PA2, Barracuda, Fremm, Rafale, NH90, M51, and Scalp Naval projects take priorty over any other projects. The estimated cost of a third Mistral type vessel would be 150 million euros. The MN general staff, knows that there is no money for a third Mistral type ship. There plan is to charter a ferry for six months per year.
Spacearrow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #4
Defense Professional / Analyst
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 230
Threads:
In 1999 it was said that Mistral was being built to replace Jeanne de Arc.

Whatever happened to that plan?

Also since the 1950s the MN order of battle has been:

18 Destroyers- T-47/T-53 classes
9 Colonial Patrol Frigates- Commandant Riviere class(replacement program for the aborted E54 program)
18 ASW Frigates-E50/E52 classes

Later in 1967/70 the two Suffren AAW ships were added to the mix.

Total 47

In 1972 the cruiser Colbert returend to service after an extensive conversion refit to outfit her with the NMasurca AAW system found on the new Suffren AAW destroyers.

Beginning in the 1970s the nominal replacement programs began to bear fruit;

1 C65 class
3 F67 class
17 A 69 class(replaced E-50/52 class)
7 F70 class
2 C 70 class
6 Floreal class(replaced Commandante Riviere class)
5 La Fayette class
2 Horizon class(replacing Suffren)

Total 43

One E50-52 not replaced and three Commandante Riviere not replaced.

The sixth La Fayette the nominal replacement for the Aconit was canceled in 1996 and the that name was given toi the fourth La Fayette(formerly named Jaureguiberry).

The cruiser Colbert was decommissioned in 1991 six years early w/o replacement.

Type C 65 class ship Aconit decommissioned in 1997.

In 1997/99 four A-69 units were decommissioned w/o replacment

In 1999 one Type F67, the unmodernized Dugay-Trouin, was decommissioned in 1999 w/o replacement.

Total 2000

2 Suffren AAW(To be replaced by Horizon)
13 A-69
2 Type F-67
7 Type F70
2 Type C 70
6 Floreal
5 La Fayette

Total 37

Four more A-69s decommissioned w/o replacement in 2000/2

Total 33 (32 if you include the Suffren which decommissioned in 2001 longgg before her Horizon replacement entered service)

The FREMM class will soon begin replacing the other two Type F67 and F 70 class warships.

And ostensibly eventually the A-69 class.

Which brings me to my second question:

Why? or in other words why not something more along the lines of the Floreal or even La Fayette?

A FREMM variant is also being planned as a replacement for the two Type C70 AAW destroyers in liu of a canceled plan for two more Horizons.

Which brings us to another interesting observation.:

That since 1980 the Royal Navy has seen its escort force reduced from 66 combatants to 25 or a 62% reduction.

The Marine Nationale from 48(including the cruiser Colbert) combatants to 33 only a 31% reduction.

I included the two new Horizon replacments for the Suffrens in the above calculations.

Although to be sure the nine A-69s, 6 Floreal and 5 La Fayettes all have severe combat limitations.

Their ASW/AAW capability is either extremely limited or nonexistent depending on the class.

Any thoughts?
rickusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #5
Defense Professional / Analyst
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 230
Threads:
Harry posted this on another discussion site:

Originally Posted by harryRIEDL
The French Aéronavale will embark for the first time on an American aircraft carrier. Without a second aircraft carrier, while Charles stopped for maintenance for eighteen months, pilots of Rafale and Hawkeye are going to train in July 2008 aboard the USS Roosevelt off Norfolk, in the Atlantic. "We are setting up this operation with the American Navy" said the French Navy Office. A dozen airplanes are to be deployed on Roosevelt: six to eight Rafales of the flotilla 12 F and two Hawkeyes of the flotilla 4F.

For the Navy, it is a simple "technical exchanges". So far, FN aircraft could not land on Americans carriers. But since last July, as we announced then on this blog (see photo), the Rafale F2 have the capacity to do so after validating their alignment system. There are very few technical obstacles, since Charles is equipped with catapults and arresting wires made in the United States. Since the nineties, French navy pilots are trained in the United States, in the absence of trainer aircraft for learning carrier landing techniques.

The newsletter TTU, which reveals information this week, sees in this case "evidence of warming in Franco-American relations and the willingness of President Nicolas Sarkozy to ensure that France regains its place in the "Otan". TTU said that this "initiative is strongly encouraged by Craig Stapleton, the United States Ambassador to France." Boarding a dozen planes french aboard an American is indeed never seen before!

This operation will backfire against the interests of the French Navy. It gives arguments to the opponents of the construction of a second aircraft carrier (PA2), many in the upper héirarchy of the military. If the French can operate their Flotillas from the large American carriers in the event of an international crisis and non-availability of Charles, France can possibly save three billion euros, the cost of PA2. As for national independence ...
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberatio...ilotes-de.html

rickusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #6
Entertainer
General
Grand Danois's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: CPH
Posts: 3,297
Threads:
Link doesn't work.
________________
"Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"
Grand Danois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #7
Defense Professional / Analyst
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 230
Threads:
Yup I knew that.

Try this:

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/

I used a google search of the above URL to transalte.

Last edited by rickusn; December 8th, 2007 at 08:46 PM.
rickusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #8
Entertainer
General
Grand Danois's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: CPH
Posts: 3,297
Threads:
Thanks.
________________
"Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, eh?"
Grand Danois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #9
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant General
kato's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,986
Threads:
Some thoughts, not really all fitting together...

The wartime LPH role of Jeanne d'Arc (as commando and ASW helo carrier) realistically has already been taken over by Mistral and Tonnere, which represent a big increase in particular for the commando carrier role really.

Of course using a ferry as a replacement would require a realignment of the entire French training concept - the cadets, in the current regimen, form groups that (for 6 months!) rotate through about a dozen or so different stations on a "real" warship including weapons etc (each about 2 weeks), something not really possible with a ferry. While this regimen includes stations aboard the accompanying escort (for variety), the focus of training is still onboard Jeanne d'Arc herself.

The (new) SSBNs have been eating up money, quite literally. The Le Triomphant class apparently has had a total program cost of some €13 billion (2002 estimate) for the four subs! You could buy 25 Horizons for that money easily, and still have a billion or so left.

Recent cuts in MN escorts seemed - in my opinion - to center around the forces originally tasked with the Atlantic Ocean, with the realignment of the MN in 1999 (formation of the Force d'Action Navale instead of standing "groups").
In particular the former GASM Atlantic Ocean ASW Flotilla, which was dissolved the same year, saw plenty of its units decommissioned without replacement - 5 out of 11 ships (1 F65, 1 F67, 3 A69) in the flotilla decommed or sold before 2002.

The Floreals are presence OPVs, not so much frigates/escorts. Within the overseas groups they're stationed with (South Indian Ocean, South-West Pacific), they do make a lot of sense. For other stuff, they wouldn't.
The same cannot necessarily be said for the Lafayettes, which are castrated frigates originally meant to be armed for more suitable for the role they fill (medium-intensity presence and light escorts).

The A69 are overdue for replacement imo. Not because of their age, but because they can't do much within the realigned MN. Afaik, some primary missions nowadays include: patrolling the nearby waters (Mediterranean, Atlantic, Channel), including some escorting there; presence mission in Djibouti; supporting FOST.
The last one would easily be filled by the FREMM ASW, and with some money you could always uparm the sixth Floreal (the only one not stationed overseas) somewhat and shift her from the Channel to Djibouti.
The patrol role is something that really needs replacement in some way, maybe a class of OPVs similar to the Floreal (but different of course) or even some cheaper corvettes with limited ASW/AAW capabilities - money talks there realistically.

Like in other European nations, a lot of money currently seems to be invested in necessary upgrade/renewal programs for other services - i'm talking about e.g. VBCI (€3b), Tiger (€4b, if all are bought), Rafale (€10b over entire production). These programs will all be paid off sometime in the mid of the next decade at the latest, so - as in other nations - i'd expect some shifting in funding towards the Navy at that point. Not with the next 2009-2013 Military Funding Plan that will handle FREMM in particular, but maybe with the 2014-2018 plan. Of course France planning out everything in 5-Year-Plans doesn't exactly give it flexibility in these matters.
kato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #10
Defense Professional / Analyst
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 230
Threads:
"The Floreals are presence OPVs, not so much frigates/escorts."

Yes good point I fialed to mention but I did include them because they were the replacements for the Commandante Riviere funvtion of overseas possession patrol.

Excellent clarification of some of the reductions:

"Recent cuts in MN escorts seemed - in my opinion - to center around the forces originally tasked with the Atlantic Ocean, with the realignment of the MN in 1999 (formation of the Force d'Action Navale instead of standing "groups").
In particular the former GASM Atlantic Ocean ASW Flotilla, which was dissolved the same year, saw plenty of its units decommissioned without replacement - 5 out of 11 ships (1 F65, 1 F67, 3 A69) in the flotilla decommed or sold before 2002."

On A-69:

"The patrol role is something that really needs replacement in some way, maybe a class of OPVs similar to the Floreal (but different of course) or even some cheaper corvettes with limited ASW/AAW capabilities - money talks there realistically."

Which brings us back to one of my questions.:

Why FREMM?

Although this would allow the La Fayettes to assume the patrol role(sans ASW) while the FREMMs would be better suited than the La Fayettes for Fleet type roles and missions.

Maybe thats the answer?
rickusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #11
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 236
Threads:
The PA2 project money has already been allocated. The Sarkozy government supports the PA2 project, so it will probably get built. France could be drawn into a war by stationing their Rafales on a American carrier.

The Floreals are built to commerical standards; they're the French equivalent of U. S. Coast Guard cutters. The La Fayettes are presence vessels. They may get VL Crotale during their mid-life refit. If the Fremm numbers are cut, then the MN wil probably upgrade the La Fayettes with ASW systems.

The MNs major surface combatants are overworked. The MN doesn't have a sufficient number of FFGs to rotate properly for missions.

Last edited by Spacearrow99; December 9th, 2007 at 07:08 AM.
Spacearrow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #12
Defense Professional / Analyst
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 230
Threads:
"The Floreals are built to commerical standards"

Yes they are but those standards from what Ive been told are tighter than military standards in some areas, equivilant in others and less in others particularly compartmentalization.

And building to such standards main purpose is to reduce costs
NOT to build an inferior ship.

Now if you mean they shouldnt be considered as combatants then they shouldnt be armed with a 100mm gun, exocet missiles and a provision for AAW point defense missiles along with a capability to operate, control and service an armed helicopter.

That would be inviting trouble and quite risky.

Take a look at the USN OHPerry FFG 7 class frigates for a comparison on weapons.: One poorly sited 76mm gun, one CIWS, 6 self-defense ASW TT and one or two armed helos. And these are ships that deploy in USN battlegroups.

US high-endurance and medium endurance cutters are built with a wartime escort mission in mind. Therfore they are considerd combatants.

So if you choose to downplay the Floreals by comparing them to USCG cutters I dont see the efficacy of such a position.

"The MNs major surface combatants are overworked. The MN doesn't have a sufficient number of FFGs to rotate properly for missions."

Do you have list of missions that have been taxing the "Major MN surface combatants"?

AT the moment I see two A-69s and one La Fayette in the IO.

I havent seen alot on other MN ships deployments so am really interested.
rickusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2007   #13
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 236
Threads:
This an article about the Navy's work rate compared to other navies.
You can debate the numbers. The MN FFGs workload should be very high when consider all their duties;they protect the French CBG and the 4 SSBNs. The French FFGs have presence missions, and one is assigned to the JDA.

3 or 4 ASW FFGs assigned to the 4 SSBNs
1 ASW FFG assigned to the JDA

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=105366
Spacearrow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2007   #14
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant General
kato's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,986
Threads:
Let's see, recent deployments (since CdG went into refit)...

AAW frigates: both were in NATO EX Brilliant Midas in October, and other maneuvers before and after.

ASW frigates: one in Brilliant Midas, one in a ASW EX (same month), one returning from TF150, one in JDA (?), presumably 3 with FOST (would be classified).

ASW destroyers: one in that ASW EX. The other one was in a long refit until May this year, no idea what she's doing now.

Lafayettes: One on anti-drug-runner patrol in Western Mediterranean, one just deployed to TF150.
No idea where the other three are.

Floreals: all forward-deployed right now: Floreal and Nivose in ALINDIEN, Prairial and Vendemiaire in ALPACI (both on Pacific port tour), currently Germinal and Ventose in the Antilles on anti-drug patrol (i think Ventose is replaced by Germinal there though, and returns to Brest).

Avisos: at least one recently patrolling near Toulon, one did that ASW EX above, two in TF150 (one also ASW EX), one just returning from TF150, one just returning from mission off West/Central Africa.
Leaves three somewhere else.

(above assembled from Netmarine, there are more up-to-date sources of course)

Some EX in the last three months with French participation:
- AAW EX with Spain in November
- Brilliant Midas in October, large NATO amphibious EX
- a ASW SPONTEX in Atlantic in October, small French flotilla as ASW escort against British SSN
- Joint AAW EX Gabian: AAW frigates with an AWACS and Tonnerre coordinating
- Panamax: large EX organized by US in Caribbean, one Floreal took part

edit:

FOST are the SSBNs, with a (usual) four-for-four deployment, i'd presume De Grasse, the second ASW DDG, deployed there as well.

Last edited by kato; December 9th, 2007 at 07:39 AM.
kato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2007   #15
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 236
Threads:
The White Paper of Defense will be released in March 2008; it should 've information about the FREDA study in it. According to the DCN is 550 M € is the estimated cost of a FREDA, compared to 800 M € for a Horizon. The FREDAs would replace the Cassards after 2018.
Spacearrow99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:37 PM.