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This is a discussion on Marine Nationale Discussions and Updates within the Navy & Maritime forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by harryriedl so back office members of french defence are unionised. Are soliders airmen The civilian personnel is ...


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Old April 19th, 2008   #76
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so back office members of french defence are unionised. Are soliders airmen
The civilian personnel is heavily unionised as all government employees, yes. Trade unions like CGT and FO are tough nuts indeed...
The military personnel aren't AFAIK

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Old April 19th, 2008   #77
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I find Sarkozy's thinking on defence very enigmatic.
He's delaying decisionmaking and being very silent about defence policy.
With a slowing economy the budget deficit is already bound to go beyond the theoretical EU threshold of 3%, so defence procurement will continue to suffer.
I see eventually the PA2 to be confirmed, but all programmes will suffer from a mix of delays and number cuts.
Sarkozy's attempts to find customers for Rafale and FREMM are also somewhat linked to the necessity not to anger the Lagardere, Dassault and other barons of the French defence industry who have supported him. But for instance the FREMM Morocco will now order will clearly come from the 17 supposed to be built for the French Navy.
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There want be any massive cuts to the FREMM program like 5 or 6 vessels; they probably cut 2 or 3 LA FREMMs from the planned 17. Sarkozy already has a ton of bad press; he cannot afraid to crapple French defense spending. The French defence barons would turn against him, and the socialists would call him a lair because Sarkozy didn't implement his election promises. The White Paper on Defense and national Security will be published in early June.
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Old April 19th, 2008   #78
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There want be any massive cuts to the FREMM program like 5 or 6 vessels; they probably cut 2 or 3 LA FREMMs from the planned 17. Sarkozy already has a ton of bad press; he cannot afraid to crapple French defense spending. The French defence barons would turn against him, and the socialists would call him a lair because Sarkozy didn't implement his election promises. The White Paper on Defense and national Security will be published in early June.
I'll certainly be interested in reading it when it comes out in June !

The Socialists can't really attack him on defence matters, Segolene Royal, Fabius and the other party stalwarts were even for cutting PA2 or asking the UK to share one of their Queen Elizabeth carriers with France to make up for no PA2... never mind the fact that the Rafale are different from the F35B...

If the economy's growth falters in the coming quarters, and the budget deficit explodes, Sarkozy will have more urgent spendings to make to keep people happy than to increase the defence budget

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Old April 19th, 2008   #79
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So yes it claims 6000 less personnel by year for 6-7 years, basically by not replacing retiring personnel. I wonder if he's talking civilian or military personnel or both. ...

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It says here both civil and military.

BTW, I think your calculation of savings is wrong. 250 million divided by 6000 is a bit over 40000. With payroll taxes and the general overheads of employment, average cost of employing a person is much more than salary, probably about double in France, so I think the actual reduction would be more.
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Old April 19th, 2008   #80
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I'll certainly be interested in reading it when it comes out in June !

The Socialists can't really attack him on defence matters, Segolene Royal, Fabius and the other party stalwarts were even for cutting PA2 or asking the UK to share one of their Queen Elizabeth carriers with France to make up for no PA2... never mind the fact that the Rafale are different from the F35B...

If the economy's growth falters in the coming quarters, and the budget deficit explodes, Sarkozy will have more urgent spendings to make to keep people happy than to increase the defence budget

cheers

Of course, the socialists can attack Sarkozy on defence matters. The socialists said that they were cutting defence spending. They could say that he laid to French voters about maintaining France's defence effort. Again, Sarkozy has had a of ton of bad press, and his poll numbers are very low. France has 3 major economic problems high taxes, welfare, and rigid labor laws. Sarkozy's economic reforms will take years before we see any major growth. France's estimated growth is below 2% for 2008. Sarkozy doesn't need retired French generals and admirals complaining about his defense policy.

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Old April 19th, 2008   #81
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Of course, the socialist can attack Sarkozy on defence matters. The socialist said that they were cutting defence spending. They could say that he laid to French voters about maintaining France's defence effort. Again, Sarkozy has had a of ton of bad press, and his poll numbers are very low. France has 3 major economic problems high taxes, welfare, and rigid labor laws. Sarkozy's economic reforms will take years before we see any major growth. France's estimated growth is below 2% for 2008. Sarkozy doesn't need retired French generals and admirals complaining about his defense policy.
Have French Genrals and Admarials crisied goverment policy before? just curious because I know it happens in Anglosphere contries [USA,UK,AUS]. I just haven't herd about it happing in france
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Old April 19th, 2008   #82
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Have French Genrals and Admarials crisied goverment policy before? just curious because I know it happens in Anglosphere contries [USA,UK,AUS]. I just haven't herd about it happing in france
Yes

Here is a link to a Le Figaro article. Retired French Vice Admiral Laurent Merer is talking about why France must maintain its Naval effort.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/debats/2008/0...-maritimes.php

Here is a link to the French National Assemby site. Herve Morin is talking to the Committe of National Defence and Armed Forces, about the reorganiztion of the French Ministry of Defense.

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13...023.asp#P5_207

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Old April 20th, 2008   #83
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FREMM ASM only have one helo while existing French ASM frigates and many navies use two for that purpose. Japanese even use three. Is that enough?
They also lack short defence capabilities like Simbad/Tetral.

Tourville & DeGrasse were upgraded with good towed sonars in 1995. Any idea of what will happen to these sonars when the ships retire? Can they be installed on LaFayette class?
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Old April 20th, 2008   #84
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If the economy's growth falters in the coming quarters, and the budget deficit explodes, Sarkozy will have more urgent spendings to make to keep people happy than to increase the defence budget

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French defence budget mostly goes to French payroll and French defence contractors.
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Old April 20th, 2008   #85
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It says here both civil and military.

BTW, I think your calculation of savings is wrong. 250 million divided by 6000 is a bit over 40000. With payroll taxes and the general overheads of employment, average cost of employing a person is much more than salary, probably about double in France, so I think the actual reduction would be more.
Hmm how much do you think a senior sergeant is paid in France ? Don't expect much more than 25-30k.
On top, if you don't replace personnel when they retire, you will have to pay for outsourcing of services to external companies. Barracks don't just clean themselves and wasting the precious time of military personnel on outsourceable tasks would be nonsense.

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Old April 20th, 2008   #86
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Of course, the socialists can attack Sarkozy on defence matters. The socialists said that they were cutting defence spending. They could say that he laid to French voters about maintaining France's defence effort. Again, Sarkozy has had a of ton of bad press, and his poll numbers are very low. France has 3 major economic problems high taxes, welfare, and rigid labor laws. Sarkozy's economic reforms will take years before we see any major growth. France's estimated growth is below 2% for 2008. Sarkozy doesn't need retired French generals and admirals complaining about his defense policy.
Well, if the generals and admirals complain they risk getting the Socialists next time round. It could only go worse, after listening to what Fabius, DSK and Royal were saying about defence matters in the internal primary debates. With the PS, PA2 is doomed, fullstop...

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Old April 20th, 2008   #87
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Pa2

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3488563&c=EUR&s=SEA

I don't follow the French Navy closely, but that caught my eye earlier whilst on Defense News, and if it is to be believed, Frances budget problems could be deeper than we first thought. I think that if PA2 is built, then as has been mentioned already in this thread, FREMM will be cut to pay for it.
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Old April 20th, 2008   #88
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http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=3488563&c=EUR&s=SEA

I don't follow the French Navy closely, but that caught my eye earlier whilst on Defense News, and if it is to be believed, Frances budget problems could be deeper than we first thought. I think that if PA2 is built, then as has been mentioned already in this thread, FREMM will be cut to pay for it.
DCNS have put high cancelation payments in the contract for the second batch of FREMMs, so the PA2 program maybe out of luck. The Sarkozy can't order the PA2, and cancel the second batch know after the recent Le Ponnant incident. If the Sarkozy orders the PA2, I think the second batch of FREMMs may be delayed for few years.

Or the French MOD could make a deal with DCNS to build a smaller conventional carrier. Of course, the second batch of FREMM would've to be cut. But France could upgrade the La Fayettes ASW and AAW systems with the money saved from the cancelation of the PA2.

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Old April 20th, 2008   #89
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While size does matter a bit in the cost of a warship, more steel does cost more, its whats place inside the steel structure which costs much much more. For example, cutting one of/or the SAMs systems aboard a ship will cut the cost of the carrier much more than cutting the steel size of a carrier.

I suggest the Treasury cut the size of a new hospital wing instead. Same story.
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Old April 21st, 2008   #90
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For example, cutting one of/or the SAMs systems aboard a ship will cut the cost of the carrier much more than cutting the steel size of a carrier.

I suggest the Treasury cut the size of a new hospital wing instead. Same story.
I wasn't talking about the steel size of the PA2. The ports of Brest and Toulon will have to be adaptated for the maintenance and the homeporting of the PA2. Theses port adapatations will be included in the price of the PA2.

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