Malaysian Newport LST KD Sri Inderapura gutted by fire

[ThePuss]

The Malaysian Newport LST KD Sri Inderapura caught fire a couple of days ago whilst underway and has been gutted but with no loss of life fortunatly.
Inderapura on fire again
She is a total loss so it looks like the RMN is in the market for another LST.

 

[swerve]

IIRC the Malaysian MoD has said that Malaysia will buy a replacement. They reckon that repairing her is possible, but the amount of rebuilding needed is far too much to be worthwhile for such an old hull.

It'll be interesting to see what they buy. Another ex-USN ship? Or something new? If the latter, what? A Korean-built Makasar would probably be cheapest.

 

[SGMilitary]

IIRC the Malaysian MoD has said that Malaysia will buy a replacement. They reckon that repairing her is possible, but the amount of rebuilding needed is far too much to be worthwhile for such an old hull.

It'll be interesting to see what they buy. Another ex-USN ship? Or something new? If the latter, what? A Korean-built Makasar would probably be cheapest.

Why not consider ST Marine Endurance class LPD?similar to Royal Thai Navy?

Cheers!

 

[OPSSG]

IMHO, this is the right time for the S. Koreans to make further in-roads in South East Asia. The Koreans should be a serious contender to supply navy ships Malaysia, despite that fact that the RMN has been traditionally buying western equipment.

Why not consider ST Marine Endurance class LPD? Similar to Royal Thai Navy?

I'll be shocked it they did. Besides the Endurance Class is not the cheapest (compared to the Korean-built Makasar) and it would be opposed by Dr M (being just plain anti-Singapore and more specifically anti-LKY). Keep in mind he is still alive and ready to stir-up trouble. We should just stay-out of Malaysian procurement issues so as to avoid the domestic political 'blame' game. As one Malaysian said (see link provided in the last para):

...
Endurance LST - Forget it. It will be cold day in hell if we ever buy military hardware from singapore no matter how good it is. Don’t u guys notice this already?

Malaysia-Singapore relations have indeed progressed since Dr M left office in October 2003 but I don't think they are ready to buy weapons/ships from Singapore. Have you forgotten the sensational Tabloid Malay Mail article on Tim Huxley's book (article posted in another thread) and published in January 2003, which is not based on what he said. Rather, it was a dramatization or putting words into his mouth that he did not say. I'm just grateful that they are now participating in FPDA exercises. Let's slowly rebuilt the trust that was lost under Dr M's 22 year reign in power. Take it step by step with more confidence building measures. Keeping the Malaysia-Singapore relationship on an even keel is far more important than just more revenue for ST Marine.

BTW, I understand from speculative sources that the Thai navy are not very happy with their China made ships and that is part of the reason whey the Thais are giving us a try. Let's see if the Thais are happy with their first buy from ST Marine and if they would make a repeat order, in future, when their finances allow. ST Marine should just take it one step at a time.

Any way there is a Malaysian blog post of this topic with a ton of amusing comments. You guys might want to take a look and start with the comments (just ignore the earlier discussion on Malaysia's M4 and zoom in on the KD Sri Inderapura replacement discussion at the bottom).

 

[Sea Toby]

Most likely the cheapest solution to replace a former US navy Newport is to buy another one through FMS. There are other Newport class ships available, although already decommissioned.

 

[StevoJH]

Most likely the cheapest solution to replace a former US navy Newport is to buy another one through FMS. There are other Newport class ships available, although already decommissioned.

But havent they all be out of service for at least 10 years? This would make the cost of refurbishment rather high. Probably better to buy a cheap makassar from the South Koreans, since you'll get 20-30 years of use out of it, rather then 5-10.

 

[STURM]

OPSG, you seem to overestimate the influence Mahathir still has. He holds no position in the current government, not even as an official advisor or mentor. He's free to say what he wants, but whether his statements will influence any official decision is a very different issue. I certainly agree with your past statements regarding the importance of Singapore/Malaysia relations and do hope they improve. Unlike many Malaysians, even before the Ambalat and Bali dance isues, I have always felt that Indonesia poses a greater security threat to my country. However, I would like to add that resolving Singaporean/Malaysian disputes is a 2 way street, and that Singapore insn't an easy partner to deal with. Nor have all the obstacles been caused by the Malaysian government. I wouldn't like anybody in this forum to get the impression that Malaysia or Mahathir is the sole reason dilpomatics relations suffered in the past.
On a humourous note, when just 8 Tornado IDRs were included in the Malaysian arms MOU signed with Britain in 1988, I remember the reactions of some Singaporean politicans who said 'it would upset the balance of power in the region' and 'would pose a threat' to Singapore..

Anyway, the Thais has been unhappy with the build quality of their Chao Prayas frigates for a number of years now. In addition to the bad damage control, gaining access to certain areas for routine mantainance is a problem, requiring the removal of certain equiptment. I've been told that the Thais are a bit happier with their Nauresan frigates which are a huge improvement over the Chao Prayas. If you recall, the first batch of Chinese MBTs and APCs, bought at friendship prices in the 80's, had hull cracks after a number of years. Photos and a report of this appeared in IDR in 1989. Puss..., the RMN has had a requirement for a LST way before the fire on the Inderapure [ex-Spartenburg County]. The former defence minister confirmed this officially about a year ago to the press, saying that a pair might be acquired if funding was available.

 

[swerve]

But havent they all be out of service for at least 10 years? This would make the cost of refurbishment rather high. Probably better to buy a cheap makassar from the South Koreans, since you'll get 20-30 years of use out of it, rather then 5-10.

I concur. May not be as cheap to buy, but you'll save in the long run on lower running costs & greater longevity.

 

[renjer]

There is more interest in the Dokdo right now. There hasn't been anything to indicate an interest in a Makassar-class transport.

 

[STURM]

renjer... There's a lot of interest to buy a lot of things, the problem as always is finance. The Dodko provides a giant leap in capabilities over the Newport LST but has a big price tag. In addition, MINDEF will also have to persuade treasury to fork out additional funds for helicopters. Then again, as an interim solution some Nuris could be passed to the RMN after an extended upgrade. The practical solution would be to go for something more affordable and cheaper to oprerate than the Dodko.

 

[Dzirhan]

Army has first call on the RMAF nuris, in any event, the transport helos that will operate off the MPSS will belong to RMAF or Army Air Corps.

 

[OPSSG]

BTW, there is an existing thread that is relevant to the discussion in DT called 'Amphibious ships for small navies'. That thread is a useful starting point for this discussion. In particular, what Abraham Gubler says at post #39.

You should read posts #14 and #15 for the actual troop and equipment carrying capability of the Endurance Class at surge, if you are interested in specific info on the Endurance Class that is not available on the ST Marine brochure, where it carried:

(i) 470 people (including a field hospital);
(ii) 51 vehicles and heavy equipment; and
(iii) 350 pallets and crates of relief supplies during the Tsunami relief operations
(see page 25 of the SAF's Dec 2004 Tsunami ebook, where the flight deck was also used to hold vehicles).​

I also enclose a video featuring the Endurance class vessels at work in the Northern Arabian Gulf:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay_t0GPaY_U]In the Service of Peace[/ame]

There's also a 2008 Pointer article how this vessel class was used in the Northern Arabian Gulf for a range of activities from oil platform (OPLAT) protection, to training the Iraqi Navy and rendering medical aid to local communities. Keep in mind that beyond troop lift, the OPLAT protection role played by the Endurance Class is also relevant to Malaysia's mission needs. IMO, the RSN gained valuable experience in developing our ROEs against small boat threats and in using both USVs (click here for info on the Venus USV, which is under development) and UAVs in our deployments to the Northern Arabian Gulf (protecting the Al Basra Oil Terminal) and in the Gulf of Aden. According to Flight Global, Singapore purchased the ScanEagle as a ship-based airborne imagery service. And this is part of what the Thai Navy will gain when buying an Endurance Class vessel from ST Marine (delivery is planned for 2012).

However, I would like to add that resolving Singaporean/Malaysian disputes is a 2 way street, and that Singapore isn't an easy partner to deal with. Nor have all the obstacles been caused by the Malaysian government. I wouldn't like anybody in this forum to get the impression that Malaysia or Mahathir is the sole reason diplomatic relations suffered in the past.

It takes two hands to clap in a bilateral relationship and in the past I was often disappointed that Malaysia-Singapore relationship was not better (with incidents of mutually elevated defence postures during certain periods). I know we can do better and hope that moving forward, that this would be the case.

As a sign of improving ties, in Oct 2009, Malaysia's Gen. Tan Sri Abdul Aziz Zainal, was conferred Singapore's highest military award, the Darjah Utama Bakti Cemerlang (Tentera) or Distinguished Service Order (Military).

OPSSG, you seem to overestimate the influence Mahathir still has. He holds no position in the current government, not even as an official advisor or mentor. He's free to say what he wants, but whether his statements will influence any official decision is a very different issue.

You are right that he holds no position in the current government. I just happen to think that we need to keep the Malaysia-Singapore relationship moving forward and I would not want it to stumble over the sale of a ship.

I certainly agree with your past statements regarding the importance of Singapore/Malaysia relations and do hope they improve.

Yes, history is not destiny. I hope that going foward, we can improve relations

Unlike many Malaysians, even before the Ambalat and Bali dance issues, I have always felt that Indonesia poses a greater security threat to my country.

Singapore has chosen to keep lines of communications open with the TNI in the hope that we have enough leverage with our various friends in the different TNI commands to keep the more aggressive/radial elements of Indonesian society in check.

Save that it is hard to understand/discuss the dynamics of the internal politics in Indonesia, I make no further comment on this point.

On a humorous note, when just 8 Tornado IDRs were included in the Malaysian arms MOU signed with Britain in 1988, I remember the reactions of some Singaporean politicians who said 'it would upset the balance of power in the region' and 'would pose a threat' to Singapore..

Hmm... interesting. Which Singaporean politician said that? I am just curious, as I did not know about that.

Puss..., the RMN has had a requirement for a LST way before the fire on the Inderapure [ex-Spartenburg County]. The former defence minister confirmed this officially about a year ago to the press, saying that a pair might be acquired if funding was available.

Thanks for the update. IMHO, we need to discuss/speculate on the Malaysian mission requirements first for this discussion to be productive.

 

[STURM]

The main requirement for a future vessel would be providing lift for 10th Para Brigade, deployments to East Malaysia, disaster relief and supporting future UN troop deployments. As for design specs, like how many deck spots is required for medium lift helis and whether a stern docking well is needed, this has not been revealed. My guess is that the RMN is still undecided. The point to remember is even before the loss of KD Inderapura, the RMN had already made a priority the purchase of a new support vessel. About a year ago, the current PM said that a pair might be bought, depending on funds. Though the Indera Sakti class and ex-USN LSTS were also used as tenders for the 8 missile and 6 gun FACS, I doubt this would be a requirement for this vessel. In my opinion, after considering the operating costs of a future vessel, and how it would suit its operational requrements, the RMN should also seriously consider investing in a self-defence suite beyond just a chaff/flare launcher and a gun. Though some would say the threat enviroment doesn't justify forking out scarce cash on a RAM or a 8 round VLS and that it can be ''fitted for'' but ''not with'', I feel it would make no sense if a decision was made to go for a high value asset like Dokdo or Mistral, and then only having sufficient funds to fit it with 30/20mm guns and MAG58s. Like what the SAN has done with its Valour class, ballistic protection in the form of kevlar paneling should also be added to vital areas like the bridge and hangar. Despite a recent report somewhere that the Mistral was a favourite, I find it very unlikely that after awarding France a contract for 2 Scorpenes, Malaysia will again award France a contract for a support vessel. This is because Malaysia likes not to keep all its eggs in one basket with its defence buys. One of the first I believe to offer a design was RDM with its Galicia, then came the Chinese.

OPSSG, as for the name of the politicans who 'cried wolf' over the Tornados, I can't remember who they were. I wished I had kept the newspaper cutting from 1988.
I tried in the past looking for it online but I haven't been able too. As you responded to an earlier reference I made to Indonesia, forgive me for going off topic. Like Singapore, Malaysia mantains an open line with the TNI because despite recent reforms, the TNI continues to have a large say with what goes on here. No surprises there. The difference is Singapore tends to have an easier time with Indonesia, because ''the more aggressive/radical elements'' in Indonesian society tend to reserve their anger and frustration towards Malaysia. Up to the 90's, Indonesia saw itself as the senior ASEAN partner with the most regional influnce, and tended to see Malaysia as a young upstart who should toe the line. Singapore was tolerated due to economic reasons and largely because the majority of Singaporeans dont trace their roots back to Indonesia. Despite Malaysia bending over backyards over the years to placate its larger neighbour, this policy has not worked. Just watch the amount of coverage on Indonesian TV when a RMN Jerong class FAC was led out of ''Indonesian'' waters by a TNI-AL Parchim in Ambalat. I suppose that restores a bit of local pride after losing Ligatan.

As you may be aware, a RMAF C-130 was pelted with stones in Padang, and airport officials refused to offload aid meant for Indonesians after a tax dispute! The Indonesian media even when to the extent of fabricating a story that Malaysian aid had exceed its expiry date. Yet the same Indonesian press hardly gave coverage to the thousands of Indonesians who flocked to MAF medical centres. I would also like to mention that RMAF planes have been ferrying aid to Indonesia after national disasters there since the 80's. What I find very amusing is that in 1999, the East Timorese refused to have Malaysia participate in INTERFAT on account of our alleged sympthaties with Indonesia. Yet, they later came to KL for aid and funding and welcomed with opened arms, Malaysian troops to Dili in 2006. A later East Timorese request for Malaysia to deploy its troops to the border with Indonesia was refused, with no reason given.

 

[Red]

A lot of the issues Malaysia has with Indonesia can be traced back to historical factors, including the Konfrontasi. Economic and cultural rivalry are also factors. And now, it incorporates a military element as well. It does not help that certain cultural attributes are similar. Indonesians actually see Malaysians as outright competitors as opposed to countries further up the economic value chain such as South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Australia.

In the past, I dont think Malaysian leaders are closer to the Indonesians than the Singaporeans were or that apparent attempts were made in that direction; especially during the Mathathir era. Suharto and Lee Senior were exceptionally close. But it was deliberate. There were benefits acruable to both parties. Personal ties between leaders matter a lot in SEA apparently. Refer to Mahathir`s relationship with Singaporean leaders or perhaps Mahathir`s relationship with many other international leaders.

Singaporean investments in Indonesia are also plentiful(the Riau archipelago, a major contributor to the Indonesian economy is practically a Singaporean satellite) . Another factor is the close ties between the SAF and Abri top echelons. The latter is intentional with Singaporean staff officers posted for training stints in Indonesian colleges(and learning to speak Indonesian) and vice versa. It helps a lot during exigencies. Here is an old video of Operation Flying Eagle detailing Singapore`s contributions to Indonesia during the Asian Tsunami(copy and paste link into browser);

mms://media.mindef.gov.sg/dw/dw_feb05_hi.asf

It is unpublicized but Singapore was the first nation to respond in a large military scale to the crisis. Singapore leveraged on her experience in training for rapid mobilization of resources for civilian emergencies and war as per her military doctrine.

 

[OPSSG]

The main requirement for a future vessel would be providing lift for 10th Para Brigade, deployments to East Malaysia...

1. Firstly, as a citizen of the 'little red dot', I would like to offer my sympathies over this period of tension (between Indonesia and Malaysia) and what has happened with regard to aid delivery to Indonesia. Secondly, let's refocus this discussion on the possible/probable Malaysian technical requirements for a replacement for the KD Sri Inderapura. Thirdly, with 4x A400M on order (I know about the delay and technical problems), isn't it always the intention to deploy the 10th Para Brigade by air and their supporting equipment by sea? What are your thoughts?

2. Let me offer some of my further thoughts below:

...disaster relief and supporting future UN troop deployments.

(i) Yes, Malaysia's quite active in UN troop deployments, which is good for operational experience.

As for design specs, like how many deck spots is required for medium lift helis and whether a stern docking well is needed, this has not been revealed. My guess is that the RMN is still undecided.

(ii) I would venture a guess that a stern dock well would be part of Malaysia's requirements.

The point to remember is even before the loss of KD Inderapura, the RMN had already made a priority the purchase of a new support vessel. About a year ago, the current PM said that a pair might be bought, depending on funds.

(iii) I'm strongly in favour of a pair (or more) and not a single ship class for operational reasons.

Though the Indera Sakti class and ex-USN LSTS were also used as tenders for the 8 missile and 6 gun FACS, I doubt this would be a requirement for this vessel. In my opinion, after considering the operating costs of a future vessel, and how it would suit its operational requirements...

Though some would say the threat environment doesn't justify forking out scarce cash on a RAM or a 8 round VLS and that it can be ''fitted for'' but ''not with'', I feel it would make no sense if a decision was made to go for a high value asset like Dokdo or Mistral, and then only having sufficient funds to fit it with 30/20mm guns and MAG58s.

(iv) Operating costs is always a concern and new ships will help in that respect. I hope that the choice made will be sensible and appropriate to Malaysia's operational needs (ambition and the means provided must match).

Save for what I said, I have no further comments on this point.

...Despite a recent report somewhere that the Mistral was a favourite, I find it very unlikely that after awarding France a contract for 2 Scorpenes, Malaysia will again award France a contract for a support vessel.

(v) I just hope for the sake of your navy that the decision making for an acquisition is driven by Malaysian defence needs rather than by 'other' considerations.

This is because Malaysia likes not to keep all its eggs in one basket with its defence buys. One of the first I believe to offer a design was RDM with its Galicia, then came the Chinese.

(vi) I like the Galicia Class (see link for specs) and I would love to hear what the others think.

 

[STURM]

OPSSG, apart from the Scorpion and Stormer, everything is 10th Para is air droppable from the C-130Hs. A lot depends on the threat nature, operational requirements and how many of the 13 C-130Hs are really operational at any given time. The possibilty of 10th Para landing on a contested DZ or beach is very unlikely, so in the event of MAF assets being needed elsewhere, some use could be made of commercial aircraft to land troops in places like KK, Tawau or Labuan, all of which can take a 737 [In event of a threat in East Malaysia].

On paper until recently, the MAF had enough sea and air lift to deploy 10th Para in one lift to East Malaysia and keep it supplied for a limited period with its existing air and sea assets, with the loss of KD Inederapura however, things are now different. For UN deployments, commercial shipping and flights can be used, as it was in the past. I believe the 2 Indera Sakti class have really been worth every dollar that was spent on them. Apart from supporting the MAF in home waters, they have also deployed to East Timor, Somalia and Croatia in the past. After the US, Turks, Canadians, etc, left Somalia, command of the remaining UN force made up Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Malaysians was under a Malaysian general for a year. For the final UN withdrawal a year later, KD Indera Sakiti was there.

 

[OPSSG]

There is more interest in the Dokdo right now.

Really? I suspect current media speculation in Malaysia may be wrong. I'll rather wait for someone more credible like Dzirhan to point the way.

If you want to consider the Dokdo, then you might as well talk about getting a ship like the Príncipe de Asturias or the Chakri Naruebet. As I said before, for operational reasons, I would rather Malaysia acquire at least two ships of a class rather than a single more expensive ship. Therefore I agree with STURM on this point, that Malaysia has a prior requirement for 2 ships.

There hasn't been anything to indicate an interest in a Makassar-class transport.

That's true. It's possibly too basic a model for the Malaysian Navy.

 

[nevidimka]

I would prefer the Dokdo as well, but considering the budget cuts with the new RM10 plan, I'm not sure if any ship would be bought to replace it.

 

[OPSSG]

Monday, November 16th, 2009 - The Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) is set to replace the gutted KD Sri Inderapura with a similar amphibious ship from the South Korean Navy. Defence Minister Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi told Malay Mail last Wednesday that the ship was expected to join the RMN fleet by next year.

Asked on the financial implications of the deal, Ahmad Zahid said since it was a loan agreement, there was no financial implications to the government. He said he had discussed the matter with the South Korean prime minister and defence minister during his official visit to Korea for the Seoul International Aerospace and Defence Show 2009 on Oct 20.

“The deal is a sign of the close friendship and relations between Malaysia and South Korea,” said Ahmad Zahid.

He said the vessel would also relieve the burden currently shouldered by two RMN transport ships — KD Mahawangsa and KD Inderasakti. He, however, could not provide the actual vessel to be loaned to the RMN but said it was a Landing Ship Tank (LST), that was similar to KD Inderapura....

According to the 16 Nov 2009 issue of the Malay Mail, citing the Malaysian Defence Minster as a source, the S. Korean Navy will loan a LST to the RMN.

 

[Dzirhan]

Still open on the MPSS requirement, RMN Chief said at PC last week that they would call companies from the 11 companies to submit information on their pricing and designs and hopes to get the tender moving again.